Was Padre Pio a fraud

[Hope1960]

The Church has long stated that mystical experiences, including stigmata, always relate a spiritual reality first and foremost. Physical attributes like the placement of the wounds may change depending upon the message God intends to impress upon the mystic. Take for example Our Lady of Guadalupe. Mary appeared as a Mayan. She wasn’t Mayan, but used the imagery to convey a message.

I guess the placement of the wounds in the palms of Christ has more spiritual significance than the wrists.

In another thread on the same topic, someone said that Jesus could’ve been crucified in the palm, on an angle, with the nails coming out the wrist.

 

[CRM_Brother]

True. It could have. I was mainly speaking toward the stigmatists who have wounds in both the palm and back of the hand like Padre Pio.

 

[Hope1960]

True. It could have. I was mainly speaking toward the stigmatists who have wounds in both the palm and back of the hand like Padre Pio.

Do most have their stigmata like that? I was mostly thinking about the Shroud.

 

[AlNg]

According to the following article posted on EWTN website:
http://www.ewtn.com/padrepio/man/biography2.htm

“From 1924 – 1931 various statements were made by the Holy See that denied the supernaturality of Padre Pio’s phenomena.”

 

[CRM_Brother]

Some do. Padre Pio and St Francis of Assissi come to mind immediately. Some stigmata appear only as cross-shaped wounds, some as red, raw patches of skin accompanied with constant burning. Some stigmatists don’t even have physical wounds on the hands, while one of the other wounds appear on their body while they only feel the pain of the crucifixion in their hands.

 

[thistle]

Just for information purposes stigma and/or private revelations are NOT considered at all in the cause for canonisation and eventual canonisation. They are not part of the process.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

According to the following article posted on EWTN website:

http://www.ewtn.com/padrepio/man/biography2.htm

“From 1924 – 1931 various statements were made by the Holy See that denied the supernaturality of Padre Pio’s phenomena.”

I am not sure what your point is in posting one isolated sentence from a long article out of context, since you have offered no commentary, but let us post the context in order to make clear that the Holy See changed its position on Padre Pio:

As his spiritual influence increased, so did the voices of his detractors. Accusations against Padre Pio poured in to the Holy Office (today the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith). By June 1922, restrictions were placed on the public’s access to Padre Pio. His daily Mass time varied each day, without announcement to diminish the crowds, and he was ordered not to answer correspondence from people seeking spiritual direction. It was also rumored that plans were being developed to transfer Padre Pio. However, both local and Church authorities were afraid of public riots and decided that a more remote and isolated place than San Giovanni Rotondo could not be found.

Despite the restrictions and controversies, Padre Pio’s ministry continued. From 1924 – 1931 various statements were made by the Holy See that denied the supernaturality of Padre Pio’s phenomena. On June 9, 1931, the Feast of Corpus Christi, Padre Pio was ordered by the Holy See to desist from all activities except the celebration of the Mass, which was to be in private. By early 1933, Pope Pius XI ordered the Holy See to reverse its ban on Padre Pio’s public celebration of Mass, saying, “I have not been badly disposed toward Padre Pio, but I have been badly informed.”

 

[midori]

From the link above–

The shroud shows a small blood clot on the back of the palm of the hand, then a line of blood to the wrist and a large blood clot on the wrist. Not only that, but there is a long blood clot down the arm. This blood is straight on one side and jagged on the other.

In 1982 I started doubting Gino. We studied Emmerich, Neumann and the Shroud. I made crucifixes in clay, in wood, and even put live people on a cross to see if what the mystics said could be true. Then I knew.

IT WAS NOT POSSIBLE FOR OUR LORD TO HAVE BEEN NAILED IN THE WRISTS.

If the cross-beams were straight as most crucifixes show, and He was nailed in the wrists, the blood would flow from the wrist down–not towards the hand. If, however, He was nailed in the hand and tied at the wrist with the cross-beams up, the blood would flow from the hand to the rope at the wrist and coagulate there.

Then there is the problem of the stain on the arm. The only way that blood stain could have occurred is if His arm was tied tightly to the beam. Then the blood would flow down the arm in the shape of a “V” between the arm and the beam. It would be straight on one side [the side where the arm and beam come together] and irregular on the other.

If, however, his hands and arms were on the top of the side beams and tied only at the wrists, it could easily hold all His weight and account for the arm blood stain. True science must take into account all observable facts. The blood stain in the hand and the “V” stain on the arm leave no other conclusion.

 

[Mary888]

Huh? In EO we know that while the stigmata itself is not a phenomenon studied in the East, the stigmata of Padre Pio was so strange and intense that he had to wear gloves because the wombs would not stop bleeding. Other stigmata signs are known to have been only marks but his were really strange.
Maybe some people saw him wear gloves and wondered what is he hiding.

 

[Hope1960]

From the link above–

The shroud shows a small blood clot on the back of the palm of the hand, then a line of blood to the wrist and a large blood clot on the wrist. Not only that, but there is a long blood clot down the arm. This blood is straight on one side and jagged on the other.

In 1982 I started doubting Gino. We studied Emmerich, Neumann and the Shroud. I made crucifixes in clay, in wood, and even put live people on a cross to see if what the mystics said could be true. Then I knew.

IT WAS NOT POSSIBLE FOR OUR LORD TO HAVE BEEN NAILED IN THE WRISTS.

If the cross-beams were straight as most crucifixes show, and He was nailed in the wrists, the blood would flow from the wrist down–not towards the hand. If, however, He was nailed in the hand and tied at the wrist with the cross-beams up, the blood would flow from the hand to the rope at the wrist and coagulate there.

Then there is the problem of the stain on the arm. The only way that blood stain could have occurred is if His arm was tied tightly to the beam. Then the blood would flow down the arm in the shape of a “V” between the arm and the beam. It would be straight on one side [the side where the arm and beam come together] and irregular on the other.

If, however, his hands and arms were on the top of the side beams and tied only at the wrists, it could easily hold all His weight and account for the arm blood stain. True science must take into account all observable facts. The blood stain in the hand and the “V” stain on the arm leave no other conclusion.

So, are you saying that the blood on the Shroud doesn’t appear to be coming from His wrists?

 

[Hope1960]

Does the Shroud of Turin Match the Wounds of Christ?

This description matches what you were talking about earlier. And Fr. Spitzer had done a magnificent job in Shroud presentations.

 

[phil19034]

What I’m more curious about are why there are no pictures of his healed stigmata after death and also why the stigmata was in his hand and not his wrist like Jesus was hung on the cross. Still I tend to think the church highly investigated these things!

One of the theories about the palm vs wrist issue is the idea that nails used in Jesus’ hands may have been nailed in at an angle. In though the palms, out via the wrists.

The Shroud only shows the exits wounds of his hands, so if the nail went in via an angle, that would make sense.

God Bless

 

[simonjosiah1]

No he was not a fraud, he was real - it was all real.
These rumours are started by people who do not want God to be real.
So many miracles by padre pio, just youtube them, he even cured my dads phobia once,
When my dad was on pilgrimage to his tomb in san giovanni, he appeared there sitting in his confessional to a number of witnesses
he’s real trust me!

 

[BoomBoomMancini]

I’d suggest if you run into someone who’s that bent on doubting, just laugh at them, say a prayer for them, and go on your way.

You’re not going to change their mind by arguing.

You’re also giving yourself an impossible task. You can’t prove a negative. You’re not going to be able to conclusively prove that something wasn’t fake.