Was Paul actually a Gnostic?

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With all due respect to the catholic faith and the sensitivity of the issue at hand, I just want a good discussion on this topic.

Elaine Pagels, The Gnostic Paul - Full pdf

Valentinian theology, their sacramentology and their Christology are derived from the same Pauline epistles which form the Biblical Canon.

“In Christ dwells all the pleroma of deity in bodily form” Col 2:9

I don’t interpret the word pleroma as just fullness, pleroma has a local existence and forms the mystical body of Christ - the totality of divine powers(Aeons).

“Christ has each within him, whether human being or angel or mystery” (Gospel of Philip 56:14-15).
 
Hi Pleroma,

The contention that Paul was gnostic in his approach to Christianity seems unlikely for a number of reasons, such as:
  • His continual insistence on the actual physicality of Jesus’ death and resurrection. Unlike gnosticism, which stressed the appearance of Christ’s death, Paul does no such thing.
  • Paul has a regard for marriage and physical relations in a manner completely inconsistent with (perhaps even contrary to) the beliefs held by gnostics.
  • Paul has a regard for women which goes beyond that of the gnostics.
  • Unlike gnostics, Paul does not emphasise secret knowledge but faith in Christ’s public ministry, death and resurrection.
  • With regards the use of πλήρωμα by Paul in Colossians, I don’t think it can really be understood in a gnostic context of Aeons: it is too early for gnostic influence; it does not resonate with any of Paul’s other writings, which are thoroughly Jewish; it fails to take into account Paul’s Jewishness; nor does it have any parallels with ideas presented by those influenced by Paul, such as Luke.
 
Hi Jonathan,
Hi Pleroma,

The contention that Paul was gnostic in his approach to Christianity seems unlikely for a number of reasons, such as:
  • His continual insistence on the actual physicality of Jesus’ death and resurrection. Unlike gnosticism, which stressed the appearance of Christ’s death, Paul does no such thing.
The view that Gnostics had on resurrection was this.

“Those who say they will die first and then rise are in error. If they do not first receive the resurrection while they live, when they die they will receive nothing.”
(Gospel of Philip)

Faith alone will not save us, we need to born again here and now.

The argument is that Paul’s message is dual layered, he gave them knowledge according to the level of their understanding for both psychics as well as pneumatics. I see that there is a problem with Jewish Christianity and the Christianity of the Gentiles. The majority versus the few.
  • Paul has a regard for marriage and physical relations in a manner completely inconsistent with (perhaps even contrary to) the beliefs held by gnostics.
  • Paul has a regard for women which goes beyond that of the gnostics.
Scholarly evidence suggests that the Pastoral Epistles was not written by Paul instead they were forged in his name in order to suppress the participation of women in church activities on equal with men.

The Canon Debate summarizes the position of S. E. Porter as follows:

“…if the church and its scholars are no longer willing to accept the Pastoral Epistles as written by Paul, perhaps it should eliminate them as forgeries that once deceived but will no longer, rather than creating strained theological justifications for their continued canonical presence.”
  • Unlike gnostics, Paul does not emphasise secret knowledge but faith in Christ’s public ministry, death and resurrection.
Paul criticizes the church at Colossians for practising ascetic practices and the worship of angels one by one in order to reach a communion with Christ and says that all the fullness of deity i.e. pleroma(all the angels) dwells with in Christ himself and that they need not worship other angels individually.

Yes, faith in Christ is important but it is also important to understand that the body of Christ has a local existence which is not made of flesh or blood, a view missing in the religion of Catholics.
  • With regards the use of πλήρωμα by Paul in Colossians, I don’t think it can really be understood in a gnostic context of Aeons: it is too early for gnostic influence; it does not resonate with any of Paul’s other writings, which are thoroughly Jewish; it fails to take into account Paul’s Jewishness; nor does it have any parallels with ideas presented by those influenced by Paul, such as Luke.
“Aeons bear a number of similarities to Judaeo-Christian angels, including their roles as servants and emanations of God, and their existence as beings of light.”

Gnosticism pre-dated Christianity and I do not reject the possibility that Paul knew about Aeons, for example:- his claims of making an ascent to the third heaven.

J.B Lightfoot has explained clearly in his works on the meaning of pleroma and how early Christians interpreted it.
 
Thanks for the responses, Pleroma.
The view that Gnostics had on resurrection was this.

“Those who say they will die first and then rise are in error. If they do not first receive the resurrection while they live, when they die they will receive nothing.”
(Gospel of Philip)

Faith alone will not save us, we need to born again here and now.

The argument is that Paul’s message is dual layered, he gave them knowledge according to the level of their understanding for both psychics as well as pneumatics. I see that there is a problem with Jewish Christianity and the Christianity of the Gentiles. The majority versus the few.
The quotation from the Gospel of Philip is more in-keeping with Johannine literature than Pauline.

You could argue that Paul’s message is dual-layered, and that is true to a point, however, there is no evidence that he withheld secret knowledge or teachings from the churches to which he wrote.

Certainly, there are tensions between Jewish and Gentile Christianity but there are also points of contact and reconciliation.
Scholarly evidence suggests that the Pastoral Epistles was not written by Paul instead they were forged in his name in order to suppress the participation of women in church activities on equal with men.
I’d say scholars are divided on this point. Being a Catholic, I’ll wait until the Magisterium comes down on the issue before I believe anything definitively. Regardless, if anything, that supports my point. Even in the non-pastoral epistles, Paul elevates the status of women, which is inconsistent with how women are viewed in gnostic culture.
Paul criticizes the church at Colossians for practising ascetic practices and the worship of angels one by one in order to reach a communion with Christ and says that all the fullness of deity i.e. pleroma(all the angels) dwells with in Christ himself and that they need not worship other angels individually.
He doesn’t criticise them on this but warns them not to fall into ineffectual Judaic pratices. He is not suggesting they worship angels through Christ! Rather because Christ is divine and through faith in him salvation is assured without the traditions and works of the law.
Yes, faith in Christ is important but it is also important to understand that the body of Christ has a local existence which is not made of flesh or blood, a view missing in the religion of Catholics.
How can this be, when we believe in the cult of the saints? The Body of Christ is the Church, which includes the Church triumphant in Heaven, the Church suffering in purgatory, and the Church militant on earth. It is not an ethereal something or rather but real-life persons who have become children of God.
Gnosticism pre-dated Christianity and I do not reject the possibility that Paul knew about Aeons, for example:- his claims of making an ascent to the third heaven.
The influence of gnosticism in Palestine during the first century was, if anything, minimal. Moreover, Paul was Jew who was not only zealous for the Traditions of his people but also highly educated in them. It isn’t likely that a student of Gamaliel would have come under such an influence.

I honestly don’t think there is any solid evidence for contending that Paul was gnostic or leaned towards gnosticism. I guess you can cherry-pick verses that, out of context, might sound gnostic but it’s completely out of character with what we know about Paul, his writings, his influences on others, and the very early Church.
 
Thanks for the responses, Pleroma.

Certainly, there are tensions between Jewish and Gentile Christianity but there are also points of contact and reconciliation.
Sure they can be reconciled, the last thing what we want is demonizing the others view, Christ belongs to the pagans as much as he belongs to the Catholics. I am not against spreading the message of Christ and his Gospels but I am more concerned about the correct doctrinal interpretations and spreading the right message so that it minimizes the atheism that has crept over this world.
How can this be, when we believe in the cult of the saints? The Body of Christ is the Church, which includes the Church triumphant in Heaven, the Church suffering in purgatory, and the Church militant on earth. It is not an ethereal something or rather but real-life persons who have become children of God.
Yes, the Body of Christ is the church but do you not know that church is the pleroma of God. You pray it daily.
Roman Catholicism
“For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many. — 1 Corinthians 12:12-14 ”
The first meaning that Catholics attach to the expression “Body of Christ” is the Catholic Church. The Catechism of the Catholic Church quotes with approval, as “summing up the faith of the holy doctors and the good sense of the believer”, the reply of Saint Joan of Arc to her judges: “About Jesus Christ and the Church, I simply know they’re just one thing, and we shouldn’t complicate the matter.”[7] In the same passage, it also quotes Saint Augustine: “Let us rejoice then and give thanks that we have become not only Christians, but Christ himself. Do you understand and grasp, brethren, God’s grace toward us? Marvel and rejoice: we have become Christ. For if he is the head, we are the members; he and we together are the whole man… the fullness of Christ then is the head and the members. But what does ‘head and members’ mean? Christ and the Church.” In light of all this, the Catholic Church calls itself the “universal sacrament of salvation” for the whole world, as it dispenses the sacraments, which give the grace of Christ himself to the recipient.
Saint Paul the Apostle spoke of this unity of Christians with Christ, referred to in the New Testament also in images such as that of the vine and the branches,[8] in terms of a single body that has Christ as its head in Romans 12:5,1 Corinthians 12:12-27, Ephesians 3:6 and 5:23, Colossians 1:18 and 1:24.
According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, “the comparison of the Church with the body casts light on the intimate bond between Christ and his Church. Not only is she gathered around him; she is united in him, in his body. Three aspects of the Church as the Body of Christ are to be more specifically noted: the unity of all her members with each other as a result of their union with Christ; Christ as head of the Body; and the Church as bride of Christ.”[9] The Catechism spells out the significance of each of these three aspects.
To distinguish the Body of Christ in this sense from his physical body, the term “Mystical Body of Christ” is often used. This term was used as the first words, and so as the title, of the encyclical Mystici Corporis Christi of Pope Pius XII. In that document, Pope Pius XII clearly states, “the mystical Body of Christ… is the Catholic Church.”
Paul tells us that the church (Christ’s body) is the pleroma (fullness of God). He says, “And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all” (Eph. 1:22-23).

I see that the Catholics have taken that verse too literally, the churches that humans have built is not the Body of Christ but the correct view should have been Christ’s mystical body having a local existence is the church and through this body we will be saved and return to fullness i.e. Pleroma. Paul is preaching a realized eschatology instead of a salvation through second coming of Christ.

We interpret the same verse differently and each of our interpretation is very important to us and forms the very foundation of our Christology.
 
I’m concerned about “correct doctrinal interpretations” too but who is authorised to give these correct interpretations? The leadership of the Church is entrusted by God to do this.
I see that the Catholics have taken that verse too literally, the churches that humans have built is not the Body of Christ but the correct view should have been Christ’s mystical body having a local existence is the church and through this body we will be saved and return to fullness i.e. Pleroma. Paul is preaching a realized eschatology instead of a salvation through second coming of Christ.
We interpret the same verse differently and each of our interpretation is very important to us and forms the very foundation of our Christology.
Catholics don’t believe that the churches - as in the buildings, “humans have built”, as you say - are the Body of Christ! Believers, united in the Church, are the Body of Christ because Christ indwells her, feeds her, sustains her.

Paul is preaching a realised eschatology? Again, that sounds more like John to me.
 
I’m concerned about “correct doctrinal interpretations” too but who is authorised to give these correct interpretations? The leadership of the Church is entrusted by God to do this.
I would rather go for comparative studies and comparative religion in order to determine the truth of scriptures.
Paul is preaching a realised eschatology? Again, that sounds more like John to me.
The Gnostics revere both Paul and John and even though they used many sources from the old testament too their main sources from which they derived their theology was from Pauline epistles and Gospel of John.

Prayer of the Apostle Paul
Translation by Dieter Mueller
(Approximately two lines are missing.)
… your light, give me your mercy! My Redeemer, redeem me, for I am yours; the one who has come forth from you. You are my mind; bring me forth! You are my treasure house; open for me! You are my fullness; take me to you! You are (my) repose; give me the perfect thing that cannot be grasped!
I invoke you, the one who is and who pre-existed in the name which is exalted above every name, through Jesus Christ, the Lord of Lords, the King of the ages; give me your gifts, of which you do not repent, through the Son of Man, the Spirit, the Paraclete of truth. Give me authority when I ask you; give healing for my body when I ask you through the Evangelist, and redeem my eternal light soul and my spirit. And the First-born of the Pleroma of grace – reveal him to my mind!
Grant what no angel eye has seen and no archon ear (has) heard, and what has not entered into the human heart which came to be angelic and (modelled) after the image of the psychic God when it was formed in the beginning, since I have faith and hope. And place upon me your beloved, elect, and blessed greatness, the First-born, the First-begotten, and the wonderful mystery of your house; for yours is the power and the glory and the praise and the greatness for ever and ever. Amen.
Prayer of Paul (the) Apostle. In Peace. Christ is holy.
The Valentinians claimed Paul was the very founder of their school and was an initiated gnostic himself.
 
I just finished reading Pagels’ “The Gnostic Paul” and I totally understand their interpretation of Paul. It makes much more sense than orthodox interpretations. Gnosticism also views the Old Testament God and the New Testament God to be two different beings, which solves the endless contradictions between the two Testaments. Anyone who thinks this idea is heresy, should really check out the following link:

gnosis.org/library/marcion/antithes.htm

Now tell me that this idea doesn’t make MUCH more sense than the usual interpretations.
 
I would rather go for comparative studies and comparative religion in order to determine the truth of scriptures.
Then I doubt you’ll get much truth. The only way you will, I suppose, is if they all contain some truth. But if one contains the whole truth, and you mix it with others that contain some truth and some falsehood, you will be negating from the whole truth.
The Gnostics revere both Paul and John and even though they used many sources from the old testament too their main sources from which they derived their theology was from Pauline epistles and Gospel of John.
Perhaps, but it says nothing about Paul himself as a gnostic.
 
I just finished reading Pagels’ “The Gnostic Paul” and I totally understand their interpretation of Paul. It makes much more sense than orthodox interpretations. Gnosticism also views the Old Testament God and the New Testament God to be two different beings, which solves the endless contradictions between the two Testaments. Anyone who thinks this idea is heresy, should really check out the following link:

gnosis.org/library/marcion/antithes.htm

Now tell me that this idea doesn’t make MUCH more sense than the usual interpretations.
Gosh, as someone in RCIA it’s not a good idea to hold a belief that the Church teaches is anathema, that is, that the Old Testament God and New Testament God are different.

How are there contradictions between the two Testaments?

How can Jesus uphold commandments stemming from a false god? How could there be two gods if there is only one God?

Sorry, but it sounds like a load of nonsense to me.
 
The link I gave shows many of the contradictions side by side. Here’s a brief part of that article. Keep in mind that this is just the tip of the iceberg.
Differences between the Creator God and the Supreme God:
For an evil tree bringeth forth not good fruit; neither does a good tree bring forth evil fruit. For every tree is known by his own fruit. Luke 6:43,44a
I am the Lord, and there is none else; I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil…
Isaiah 45:6,7
I create evil - This god is the author of evil - there must be another God, after the analogy of the good tree producing its good fruit. In Christ is found a different disposition, one of a simple and pure benevolence - which differs from the Creator. In Christ a new God is revealed.
The Creator God is judicial, harsh, and mighty in war.
The Supreme God is gentle and simply good and excellent.
The title “God” is a vague one, and applied to other Beings as well; as it is written, " He standeth in the congregation of the mighty"; “He judgeth among the gods” (Psalm 82:1,6), “Ye are gods”. Thus as the attribute of supremacy would be inappropriate to these, although they be called gods, so it is to the Creator.
Jesus Christ and none else revealed a new God, who, in the Old world and in the Old time and under the Old God was unknown and unheard of ; Whom is accounted by no one through long centuries back, and ancient in men’s very ignorance of Him - even in ancient names He was unknown and concealed. He had remained unknown by any works from the beginning. Even the Creator was unaware of the Supreme God being above himself, Who, although He did not manifest Himself from the beginning and by means of the creation, has yet revealed Himself in Christ Jesus.
The Supreme God is susceptible to no feeling of rivalry, or anger, or damage, or injury . He inflicts no punishment and takes no offence, and is not feared, as a good being ought not to be an object of fear, as a judicial being, in whom resides the grounds for fear - anger, severity, judgements, vengeance, and condemnation.
II. The Inconsistencies of the Creator God
The Creator God is inconsistent, in respect of persons, sometimes disapproving where approbation is deserved; or else lacking in foresight, bestowing approbation on men who ought rather be reprobated, as if he either censured his own past judgements, or could not forecast his future ones.
With fickleness and improvidence he repented, or on some recollection of some wrong-doing, because the Creator actually says “It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king” (1 Samuel 15:11), his repentance in the sense of an acknowledgement of some evil work or error. This is also the case in the matter of the Ninevites, when the Book of Jonah (3:10) states,
“And God repented of the evil that he had said he would do unto them; and he did not.”
The Creator called out to Adam, “Where art thou?” as if ignorant of where Adam was; and when Adam alleged that the shame of his nakedness was the reason for hiding himself, the Creator inquired whether he had eaten of the tree, as if he were in doubt (Genesis 3:9-11).
In the case of Sodom and Gomorrah, he says “I will go down now, to see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it which is come to me; and if not, I will know”; another instance of his uncertainty in ignorance.
The Creator God was even mean enough in his very fierceness, when, in his wrath against the people for their consecration of the golden calf, he makes this request to Moses: “Let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them; and I will make thee a great nation” (Exodus 32:10). Moses is better than his God, as the deprecator and indeed, the averter of his anger, “For Thou shalt not do this; or else destroy me along with them” (Exodus 32:32).
III. The Two Christs
The Christ who in the days of Tiberius was, by a previously unknown God, revealed for the salvation of all nations, is a different being from him who was ordained by the Creator God for the restoration of the Jewish state, and who is yet to come.
The Creator’s Christ is to be a warrior, a bearer of arms, and mighty in war.
The Christ of the Good God, who has come, is a far different being from the Creator’s Christ.
Isaiah’s description of Christ in no point suits the Christ of the Good God. Isaiah’s Christ is to be called Emmanuel (Isaiah 7:14); then, he takes the riches of Damascus and the spoils of Samaria against the king of Assyria (Isaiah 8:4). But yet, He who is come was neither born under such a name, nor ever engaged in such a war-like enterprise.
A Christ had come who had never been foreannounced, but the Christ predicted had not yet appeared. The Jews were themselves quite certain that it was some other who came; so they not only rejected Him as a stranger, but slew Him as an enemy, though they would have acknowledged Him, and with all religious devotion followed Him, if He had been one of them.
The difference between the two Christs, is that the Jewish Christ was ordained by the Creator for the restoration of the people alone from its dispersion, while our Christ was appointed by the supremely Good God for the liberation of the whole human race.
Who among the nations can turn to the Creator, when those whom the prophets name are proselytes of individually different and private conditions?
It is the Christ of the Other, Supreme God Who was driven to the cross by the hostile powers and authorities of the Creator. The suffering of the cross was not predicted of the Creator’s Christ; moreover, it should not be believed that the Creator would expose his son to that kind of death on which he himself had pronounced a curse. “Cursed” says he, “is everyone who hangeth on a tree” (Deuteronomy 21:3,)
 
I’ve read this book a couple of times, and quite liked it. We actually devoted a book study group to it at church. While I didn’t always agree with Pagels’ exegesis, for the most part I found it enlightening, and pretty convincing. After all, the Holy Valentinus himself was a student of Theudus, who was in turn a student of St. Paul.
  • His continual insistence on the actual physicality of Jesus’ death and resurrection. Unlike gnosticism, which stressed the appearance of Christ’s death, Paul does no such thing.
It’s important to remember that Gnosticism is an umbrella term for a wide variety of sects that believed in the salvific nature of Gnosis, so it’s impossible to generalize about them. Some sects had more of a focus on the illusory nature of the crucifixion, and others did not. More often than not, it was the significance of the crucifixion that differed from proto-orthodox Christianity. But I wonder if modern interpretation of Paul’s belief about the crucifixion is more based on pre-conceived theological beliefs, rather than what he actually meant.
  • Paul has a regard for marriage and physical relations in a manner completely inconsistent with (perhaps even contrary to) the beliefs held by gnostics.
I wonder where you get this idea that Gnostics had a lesser regard for marriage and physical relations than St. Paul. Could you provide some sources please?

Honestly, I think Paul’s view of marriage was rather negative, since he seems to promote celibacy and says we only allow marriage so that weaker individuals don’t fall into the sin of fornication. The Valentinians, for example, were very pro-marriage. Their supreme Sacrament was the Mystery of the Bridal Chamber, which was a spiritual union for the soul and shouldn’t be confused with worldly marriage; but the symbolism of marriage there is still highly significant and positive.
  • Paul has a regard for women which goes beyond that of the gnostics.
I’d disagree with this too… Gnostics in general had a high regard for women, and were very egalitarian. I’d challenge anyone to find a scripture that says otherwise. Paul taught that women should be submissive to their husbands and keep silent in church.
  • Unlike gnostics, Paul does not emphasise secret knowledge but faith in Christ’s public ministry, death and resurrection.
“Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age [aeon] or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glorification. None of the rulers [archons] of this age understood this; for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But, as it is written, ‘What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him.’ God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.” (1 Corinthians 2:6-10)
  • With regards the use of πλήρωμα by Paul in Colossians, I don’t think it can really be understood in a gnostic context of Aeons: it is too early for gnostic influence; it does not resonate with any of Paul’s other writings, which are thoroughly Jewish; it fails to take into account Paul’s Jewishness; nor does it have any parallels with ideas presented by those influenced by Paul, such as Luke.
Gnostic thought actually pre-dates Christianity, so it could have easily been an influence on Paul.
 
Gosh, as someone in RCIA it’s not a good idea to hold a belief that the Church teaches is anathema, that is, that the Old Testament God and New Testament God are different.

How are there contradictions between the two Testaments?

How can Jesus uphold commandments stemming from a false god? How could there be two gods if there is only one God?

Sorry, but it sounds like a load of nonsense to me.
Different Gnostic sects held different views on the Demiurge, the Sethians even went on to make him an evil being which was strongly criticized by the neo-platonic philosopher Plotinus.

However the Valentinians especially had a very positive view on the Demiurge. There are two Holy Father, the first Holy Father was the one from whom all the Aeons emanated and the Demiurge who was made in the image of the Holy Father through Sophia(Wisdom) was the second Holy Father. Since he was made in the image of the Holy Father he had a deficiency in him and hence he alone couldn’t give salvation to humanity and thence came the Saviour Christ and gave us gnosis in order to have knowledge of the original Holy Father again and return us back to Pleroma.

Sophia has sown the spiritual seed in all of us and she is the one guiding the Demiurge who without knowing this thinks he acts alone same as the psychic human beings.

Everything is clearly explained in the Tripartite Tractate and it makes perfect sense, the Jews and the Greek philosophers thought that the demiurge was the highest God without knowing there is an Immortal perfect One ruling over this cosmos.

The Demiurge in Valentinianism

*This relatively positive assessment of the Old Testament is in sharp contrast to the much more negative assessment of it in earlier forms of Gnosticism. In the view of Simone Petrement (1984), Valentinianism represents “a turning point” in the history of Gnosticism. In her view:

"It is the Valentinians who reestablish the harmony between the Old & New Testaments when they say that Sophia, the Wisdom derived from the true God has spoken though the mouths of the prophets; when they teach that, in creating the world, the Demiurge was inspired without knowing it by the Spirit or the Logos, of whom he was simply the instrument; when they say that the world was created to allow the perfecting of the seeds of the Spirit that have come from the eternal world (Petrement 1984)

For the Valentinians, the Old and the New Testaments are not in conflict."*
 
The link I gave shows many of the contradictions side by side. Here’s a brief part of that article. Keep in mind that this is just the tip of the iceberg.
Hi Maranatha, as I said, the view that the God of the OT and NT are different was declared anathema by the Church. Regardless, I shall address your apparent contradictions:
For an evil tree bringeth forth not good fruit; neither does a good tree bring forth evil fruit. For every tree is known by his own fruit. Luke 6:43,44a
I am the Lord, and there is none else; I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil…
Isaiah 45:6,7
I think you need to be careful of taking verses out of context. In Luke, Jesus is talking about the behaviour of men, not of God, and even then it is not exhaustive. In the second passage, God is emphasising His sole divinity, hence what is said. I don’t know what translation you are using, but the Hebrew does not say God creates evil but that He creates רָ֑ע (ra), which is best translated “calamity” or “woe”, not evil. Again, the emphasis is to show that God is in control and the only one in control. In fact, what this passage does is specifically deny that there is more than one God.
The Creator God is judicial, harsh, and mighty in war.
The Supreme God is gentle and simply good and excellent.
This is a common accusation but completely unfounded. Here are some examples why:
  • Nobody in the entire Bible mentions eternal Hell and damnation more than Jesus (in fact, he mentions Hell about three times more than Heaven).
  • The NT God is certainly not “gentle”. Remember the passage about the millstones or the grinding and gnashing of teeth? Or what about from Revelation, where the angels of God gather sinners into a great wine press and squash them so as to produce, so that the blood is about 300 kilometres high!
  • God during the OT was dealing with more primitive peoples and in fact His laws are not only just but also merciful (e.g. He doesn’t wipe out the people when they sin, He promises Abraham that if righteous men are found He will not destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, the lex talionis is actually a less violent and more just law than those of the period).
The Supreme God is susceptible to no feeling of rivalry, or anger, or damage, or injury . He inflicts no punishment and takes no offence, and is not feared, as a good being ought not to be an object of fear, as a judicial being, in whom resides the grounds for fear - anger, severity, judgements, vengeance, and condemnation.
Umm the God that Jesus reveals is love - doesn’t that mean He is susceptible to some kind of feeling?

To be honest, if you are really in RCIA I would bring this up during classes because this is not a view the Church can accept. The consider the OT God as a different God from that of Christ is to deny Christ, since for him it was this very God - of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - who was his Father.

I honestly suggest you see your local pastor and talk these issues through with him.

Jonathan
 
Jonathan, thank you for your response. It was very reasonably presented, and makes some good points. I fully intend to bring these things up in class, because this Sunday our class is 6 hours long to prepare for Holy Week, so I’ll have plenty of time.

I find the Valentinian Gnostic ideas to explain a lot of things I’ve always questioned, but that no Priest, Monk, or seminarian I’ve talked to has ever had a sensible explanation for. When these people consistently fail to provide answers for me, it forces me to look to other sources, like Gnostic literature, for answers.

Personally, I find it disturbing that many of the older, well-respected people at my Church, upon questioning, seem to have never even read a lot of the Bible, let alone the Catechism or other writings.
 
I think many were poorly catechised themselves or really didn’t have to face these issues. It is only our generation, or at least since the 1960s, that these issues of gnosticism, paganism, atheism (to a large degree), etc. have come up again in the West. For many pastors, the extent of their apologetics was explaining about the sacraments or Mass. I’ve been fortunate enough to study a theology degree and believe me, as attractive as gnosticism may sound, it’s a dead rabbit and against the spirit (or that should be, Spirit) of Christ and his Church. So I encourage you to ask those questions. I’ll be happy to answer more when I’ve more time.

Also, good luck with the six-hour class! That’ll be quite a challenge!
 
It makes much more sense than orthodox interpretations. … Now tell me that this idea doesn’t make MUCH more sense than the usual interpretations.
It makes a little more sense because the gnostics clearly understood some of the obvious problems in early Christianity (like that YHWH, as portrayed, is obviously evil).

One of things I credit Mormonism and Joseph Smith for is actually coming up for a REASON for humanity to exist (we’re all “proto-gods”) as opposed to orthodox Christianity which claims that YHWH created humanity out of boredom or loneliness.

“It’s all nonsense” makes the most sense.
 
Gee “nonsense” must be pretty powerful, having raised Jesus from the dead! 😉

YHWH is not portrayed as evil in the Old Testament. That’s a typical claim with very little contextualised evidence to support it.
 
Paul was not a Gnostic. He was an Jewish Rabbi, that probably delved into the esoteric to much for most people to understand.
 
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