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lax16
Guest
What is your definition of plural MARRIAGE? Does the Bible make reference to marriage ceremonies? Is the word “marriage” mentioned in the OT? If so, please provide references.
thanks!
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thanks!
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jakasaki
Guest
:tsktsk:
**You did not answer “dolphinlove”'s post. **
Now you left the Irish jig and you are doing the tango. Should I get the disco ball out for you???
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manualman
Guest
Jesus himself addressed the principle behind this arguments in the gospels. The pharisees attempted to trip him up by noting that Moses is on record in the Torah as allowing divorce. Jesus prohibited it and they tried to show this as a contradiction. Jesus rather pointedly showed them that God tolerating something in an earlier age of revelation was an issue of the people’s immaturity and hardness of heart, not an endorsement.
You see, your argument simply proves too much(see below) or it proves nothing at all (see above). If you are right, then God is hunky dory with slavery too. We can probably dig up MORE scripture passages of God permitting slavery to go on uncommented than we can polygamy. So instead of pushing polygamy on us catholics, why don’t you go preach to Rev. Jeremiah Wright’s congregation in Chicago about how God says that slavery is perfectly acceptable? Then come back and tell us how you did. Good luck!
You see, your argument simply proves too much(see below) or it proves nothing at all (see above). If you are right, then God is hunky dory with slavery too. We can probably dig up MORE scripture passages of God permitting slavery to go on uncommented than we can polygamy. So instead of pushing polygamy on us catholics, why don’t you go preach to Rev. Jeremiah Wright’s congregation in Chicago about how God says that slavery is perfectly acceptable? Then come back and tell us how you did. Good luck!
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lax16
Guest
chris - show where God “sanctioned” polygamy.
Abraham - Isaac - Jacob were pre-Moses/pre-10 Commandments.
Abraham - Isaac - Jacob were pre-Moses/pre-10 Commandments.
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lax16
Guest
chris - one last thing, if God commanded it, then why don’t/didn’t faithful Jews practice it?
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hamba2han
Guest
There is no record of Jesus (pbuh) opposing polygamy. If he did so, it would have meant that he condemned the practice of the prophets before him. There are a number of examples of polygamous marriages among the prophets recorded in the Torah. Prophet Abraham (pbuh) had two wives, according to Genesis 16:13:** “So after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, Sarai, Abram’s wife, took Hagar the Egyptian, her maid, and gave her to Abram her husband as a wife.”** So did Prophet David (pbuh), according to the first book of Samuel 27:3, “And David dwelt with Achish at Gat, he and his men, every man with his household, and David with his two wives, Ahin’o-am of Jezreel, and Abigail of Carmel, Nabal’s widow.”
In 1st Kings 11:3, Solomon (pbuh) is said to have “…had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines.” Solomon’s son, Rehobo’am, also had a number of wives, according to 2nd Chronicles 11:21,** “Rehobo’am loved Ma’acah the daughter of Absalom above all his wives and concubines (he took eighteen wives and sixty concubines, and had twenty-eight sons and sixty daughters).”**
In fact, the Torah even specified laws regarding the division of inheritance in polygamous circumstances. In Deuteronomy 21:15-16, the law states: “15 If a man has two wives, the one loved and the other disliked, and they have borne him children, both the loved and the disliked, and if the first-born son is hers that is disliked, 16then on the day when he assigns his possessions as an inheritance to his sons, he may not treat the son of the loved as the first-born in preference to the son of the disliked, who is the first-born.”
The only restriction on polygamy was the ban on taking a wife’s sister as a rival wife in Leviticus 18:18, “And you shall not take a woman as a rival wife to her sister, uncovering her nakedness while her sister is yet alive.” The Talmud advises a maximum of four wives as was the practice of Prophet Jacob (pbuh).
According to Father Eugene Hillman, “Nowhere in the New Testament is there any explicit commandment that marriage should be monogamous or any explicit commandment forbidding polygamy.” He further stressed the fact that the Church in Rome banned polygamy in order to conform to Graeco-Roman culture which prescribed only one legal wife while tolerating concubinage and prostitution.
In 1st Kings 11:3, Solomon (pbuh) is said to have “…had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines.” Solomon’s son, Rehobo’am, also had a number of wives, according to 2nd Chronicles 11:21,** “Rehobo’am loved Ma’acah the daughter of Absalom above all his wives and concubines (he took eighteen wives and sixty concubines, and had twenty-eight sons and sixty daughters).”**
In fact, the Torah even specified laws regarding the division of inheritance in polygamous circumstances. In Deuteronomy 21:15-16, the law states: “15 If a man has two wives, the one loved and the other disliked, and they have borne him children, both the loved and the disliked, and if the first-born son is hers that is disliked, 16then on the day when he assigns his possessions as an inheritance to his sons, he may not treat the son of the loved as the first-born in preference to the son of the disliked, who is the first-born.”
The only restriction on polygamy was the ban on taking a wife’s sister as a rival wife in Leviticus 18:18, “And you shall not take a woman as a rival wife to her sister, uncovering her nakedness while her sister is yet alive.” The Talmud advises a maximum of four wives as was the practice of Prophet Jacob (pbuh).
According to Father Eugene Hillman, “Nowhere in the New Testament is there any explicit commandment that marriage should be monogamous or any explicit commandment forbidding polygamy.” He further stressed the fact that the Church in Rome banned polygamy in order to conform to Graeco-Roman culture which prescribed only one legal wife while tolerating concubinage and prostitution.
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Reuben_J
Guest
The question is: where does God in the Bible it says, “Yes, I will allow polygamy”.
The Ten Commandments is pretty obvious. For example, thou shalt not kill; the command is not to kill. So the question is, where does it say, “Go out and practice polygamy”? You can’t find it because there is none. If there is none then we have to fall back on the general commandment of God about marriages especially the original plan. It clearly says for a man to ‘cleave’ to his wife and be one flesh and no man should separate them. It is adultery even if we look at another person with lust – a strict reminder not to think about it (to have another wife).
Yes, some prophets practice polygamy, but so what? Moses killed but so what? If we have to follow all the human action that prophets did, then we do not need the Commandment of God, do we?
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Reuben_J
Guest
I just realize that the OP is a LDS after noting that a Muslim poster comes into the thread. It is interesting that they have much in common about polygamy. I wonder how that comes about. I mean about the commoness - two uttrely different religions but meet in polygamy.
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Jay53
Guest
I have noticed ALOT of similarities between the Islam and Mormonism. It’s really uncanny. I wonder if anyone has done a comparison/contrast here on CAF.
To me, it’s as if Satan tried to get everyone to disbelieve in Jesus by creating Islam and its false teaching that Jesus was not crucified or resurrected. When that didn’t work on eliminating the Truth, another religion was created that seems to believe in Jesus, but twists everything in Scripture around.
This always makes me think of Acts 16:16-19. The demon that Paul cast out was seemingly telling people to follow St. Paul. Yet St. Paul knew that it was a demon and cast it out.
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Reuben_J
Guest
Not to hijack this thread but just this one. How true, after the coming of the Messiah, two principle messages of God - the sanctity of marriage and salvation of mankind through the ressurection were immediately compromised by the rise of another religions that seemingly based on the prophets. One cannot help but think that when such a beautiful concept (oneness of marriage) and important revelation (salavtion) to be outright rejected must surely be from forces outside of God.I have noticed ALOT of similarities between the Islam and Mormonism. It’s really uncanny. I wonder if anyone has done a comparison/contrast here on CAF.
To me, it’s as if Satan tried to get everyone to disbelieve in Jesus by creating Islam and its false teaching that Jesus was not crucified or resurrected. When that didn’t work on eliminating the Truth, another religion was created that seems to believe in Jesus, but twists everything in Scripture around.
This always makes me think of Acts 16:16-19. The demon that Paul cast out was seemingly telling people to follow St. Paul. Yet St. Paul knew that it was a demon and cast it out.
I am more intrigued to note this finding - that the two religions, so far from each other in origin can meet on this subject (polygamy) which is outright rejected by Christ.
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planten
Guest
The case presented by examples from OT by chris2009 is very clear in favor of polygamy. Poly gamy is not described as sin. God never said “You will not take another wife…” The case sited by reuben is weak.
Even if God said “Husband will unite with his wife” did not mean he will unite with his one and only wife.
Reuben is taking too much meaning out of a simple sentence of the OT.
We understand things from clear example and practices of our very early men of God. Even Jesus never said 'You will not take another wife inthe presence of one wife." So why are the catholics etc pressing ahead in favor of one man one wife. The words of Jesus about not looking at another woman with lust is clearly about looking at another who is not a wife. That is well understood. Why should any man look at another woman with lust?? But that does not forbid marrying that woman and living with her.
Please know that even Quran favors one man one wife. It is clearly written in Quran that one wife is the best. But it does not forbid another wife in times of need. that is the natural course. Some christians are trying to reverse the cycle of nature.
They know that even Joseph the father of Jesus had another wife. Mary was not the first wife. Jesus did not preach monogamy. So why are the catholics so strict on one man one wife as if it is sin to have another wife. Sometimes ladies have bodily defects. They cannot bear children.
God can help them and cure them by all means. But why not follow the example of Sarah?? If it was a sin, she would never do what she did… God was pleased with her and that helped her bear a child (Issac).God was pleased with her good will.
The words of Isaiah about seven women getting hold of one man clearly support polygamy. I praise the LDS for their stand on marriages and remarraige. It appears that some christian sects feelmarriage as a burden. Even one wife is too much of a burden. They would not like to go for another wife. But they should not try to make it a religious edict (practice).
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planten
Guest
hamba is being pressed to show from bible where did God permit polygamy. But same can be said to D i L, can DiL show from the bible where did God forbid polygamy.Your personal understanding and translation of the bible will never cease to make me stop doing this:
You show me one, and more if you wish, that God of the bible says:yes i allow polygamy.
And, there is a catch, you cant take things out of context… this should be an interesting challenge for you
** that God of the bible says: No, I do not allow polygamy**
That was a bad demand by DiL. The permission by God is evident. Otherwise wise men of God would not do multiple marriage. The present day catholics consider themselves above the prophets of God. How bad!! And arrogance!! They must repent from those bad ideas and return to God. Otherwise their prayers and worship will all go waste.
If polygamy was not commanded by Godinthe bible then at least it was permitted. The same is being denied by the Catholics.
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seraphime2008
Guest
How can you prove that those prophets were living happy thriving while the stories tell us that those wives were jealous and competed towards each other:
-Sarah felt that she was humiliated by her maid Hagar, finally she told Abraham to let her go
-Jacob’s multiple marriage was not planned at all from the beginning, it was the fraud that was schemed by Leah’s father that he ended up in polygamy. Nonetheless, those wives were jealous at each other that they even competed in giving offspring for Jacob by giving off their maid. You don’t know exactly what these women must have felt in day to day household duties.
-Hana (Samuel’s mother) was so depressed by her rival in marriage.
-David multiple marriage only brought rivalry among his children, they killed each other, so did happen to Solomon
So even so that we know that there’s no explicit commandment of disallowing polygamy, the narrations of the bible only stress that these figures own desires and hard heartened that led them to polygamy, only bring stresses, jealousy, unhealthy competition, anger, hatred towards people who were involved in this relationships. Please, use your imagination whether these wives could behave nicely to each other. They couldn’t, then it’s obvious that it only bring more sins to people.
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seraphime2008
Guest
“16: But he shall not multiply horses to himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt, to the end that he should multiply horses: forasmuch as the LORD hath said unto you, Ye shall henceforth return no more that way. 17: Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold” (Deut. 17)
This is the real teaching from the OT that taking many wives considered sinful as it’s showing the act of “Greediness” that could turn you away from God!
The ideal marriage, according to God. The very first marriage, Adam and Eve, in many ways serves as a prototype, if you will. Notice that God knew that it was not good that Adam be alone and God provided for Adam a “help meet” (counter part that was a complement to Adam, Gen. 2: 18). Observe how God did not simply provide another man, but for Adam God made woman, the “glory of the man” (Gen. 2: 18ff., I Cor. 11: 7ff.). Moreover, appreciate the fact that when God instituted marriage, it was one man and one woman (Gen. 2). If polygamy is the “ideal,” as some are teaching, why, then, did not God create Eve, Sue, Jane, etc. for Adam?
Note this record even from the OT, Malachi 2:
14: Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant. 15: And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth."
The practice of polygamy doesn’t fit with this passage!
And Islam is also endorsing adultery by saying that you may have sex with your slaves if you can’t deal justly with the lawful wife!!!
Yeah, that’s because Joseph was said to be a widower…! He didn’t have another wive when he married Mary!
Jesus stated again the first institution God have made was one man and one wife become one body as it was made from the beginning!
…
God can always test the faith of the people.Wrong…Isaiah was giving an illustration of the situation when Israel must face punishment from God that there would be view men left when Israel would be conquered, chastised, scattered and should turn back to God.
Your support of LDS is no surprise knowing that you are both dealing with the akin sort of prophets.
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dolphinlove
Guest
First thing i have got to say to you is…
TAQIYYA King!
and have you heard of this commandment…
Thall shalt NOT commit adultery?
The problem is, muslims and other cult religions are fans of taking quotes out of context (which Hamba did earlier and i will address that in a minute) from the bible.
I will show you planten, that the COMMAND of God IS for one man and one woman ONLY!
1 Corinthians
7:2 yet to **avoid immorality **every man should have his own wife and every woman her **own husband. **
The difference in meaning of wife and wives…
Wife: ONE person, ONE married person to her husband.
Wives: Multiple woman for ONE man.
Show me in that sentence it says a man should have more than one wife?
More extracts from the bible to prove God only wants one man for one woman and vice versa.
Mat
19:9 Now I say this to you: anyone who divorces his wife – I am not speaking of an illicit marriage – and marries another, is guilty of adultery.’
Mark 10
2 Some Pharisees approached him and asked, ‘Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?’ They were putting him to the test.
3 He answered them, ‘What did Moses command you?’
4 They replied, ‘Moses allowed us to draw up a writ of dismissal in cases of divorce.’
5 Then Jesus said to them, ‘It was because you were so hard hearted that he wrote this commandment for you.
6 But from the beginning of creation he made them male and female.
7 This is why a man leaves his father and mother,
8 and the two become one flesh. They are no longer two, therefore, but one flesh.
9 So then, what God has united, human beings must not divide.’
10 Back in the house the disciples questioned him again about this,
11 and he said to them, ‘Whoever divorces his wife and marries another is guilty of adultery against her.
12 And if a woman divorces her husband and marries another she is guilty of adultery too.’
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Reuben_J
Guest
I know. Both Islam and LDS support polygamy. In this case even when polygamy was as a result of God’s curse.
Like I said in earlier, it’s amazing how both of your prophets could come out with an idea (polygamy) like this and glaringly trying to undo what Jesus did.
And about remarriage too. I don’t know about LDS, for but for Muslims, how easy it is for them to divorce – all you need to do is just to utter the word. With just a snap of the fingers you all manage to destroy the sanctity of marriage as commanded by God. Guess your prophet must have missed out the command of husband and wife being one flesh and no man can separate. The trouble was, his advisers did not disclose everything to him. I guess it’s the attraction of selective addiction. Polygamy was just right with Mohammad. Sorry not to demean the good prophet but the truth is he truly did it (polygamy) with glee. How many wives (not including the concubines) actually did he has, ahh?
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dolphinlove
Guest
1 Corinthians
7:2 yet to avoid immorality every man should have his **own **wife and every woman her own husband.
3 The husband must give to his wife what she has a right to expect, and so too the wife to her husband.
4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and in the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.
5 You must not deprive each other, except by mutual consent for a limited time, to leave yourselves free for prayer, and to come together again afterwards; otherwise Satan may take advantage of any lack of self-control to put you to the test.
Mat 19
9 Now I say this to you: anyone who divorces his wife – I am not speaking of an illicit marriage – and marries another, is guilty of adultery.’
Mark 10
2 Some Pharisees approached him and asked, ‘Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?’ They were putting him to the test.
3 He answered them, ‘What did Moses command you?’
4 They replied, ‘Moses allowed us to draw up a writ of dismissal in cases of divorce.’
5 Then Jesus said to them, ‘It was because you were so hard hearted that he wrote this commandment for you.
6 But from the beginning of creation he made them male and female.
7 This is why a man leaves his father and mother,
8 and the two become one flesh. They are no longer two, therefore, but one flesh.
9 So then, what God has united, human beings must not divide.’
Who said this then? This is a directive from Jesus, i dont know what bible you must be reading, is it called MTB?= muslims translation of the bible??
I have just proven to you that Jesus has commanded one man one woman, after all, he IS God.
In the old testament, right at the beginning, God gave us this revelation:
Genesis 2:
24 This is why a man leaves his father and mother and becomes attached to his wife,** and they become one flesh.**
25 Now, both of them were naked, the man and his wife, but they felt no shame before each other.
This is exactly the same commandment that Jesus later gave us in
Mark 10
7 This is why a man leaves his father and mother,
8 and the two become one flesh. They are no longer two, therefore, but one flesh.
Both God AND Jesus (the ONE TRUE God) gave the same command.
From the beginning, God only wanted one man and one woman. But the prophets sinned as well and didnt follow his commandment.
Bottom line is
You shall not commit adultery.
As for all the other ‘things’ you have gone on with, we have been over them 10000000000000000000000000’s of times before and im not going to rehash the same old points again, you have been proven wrong time and time again, but you persist, for what? cant you accept answers?
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planten
Guest
You mean prophets before OT (Abraham and Issac and Jacob) did not know about the God permitted laws? You mean the prophets of the OT did not understand the OT??
Adam was not the first man on earth. Eve was not the first lady. Your bible estimates the life on earth to 6000 years. That is all wrong. Your above words do not prove anything in your favor. You are trying to draw extra meanings from simple words.
It no where says that a man should marry only one lady and never to marry another one.
How does your religion deal with the slaves?? I am sure there is no pious command in your religion.
Whatever, you are going against the father of Jesus. The proof is that you people are disallowing remarriage completely by your religion. That is all your bad whim and bad wishes.
Those are your bad ideas against Sarah. She was not doing anything wrong. But you people do not even spare the prophets.…
.
You are surmising, thinking, and applying. The words of Isaiah about sevenladies getting hold of one and asking him to take them is not about israel. It is a prophesy of prophet isaiah about the time of prophet Muhammad when due to wars being imposed on the early Muslims and many young and old Muslims being killed by the infidels (kafirs), there would be a shortage of men. At the time, the Prophet (Muhammad0 will order men to marry the widows and other ladies of marriageable age so that there is no illicit sexual behavior in the state.
I never said that Joseph Smith was a prophet. Let him be. You can include, by your bad thinking, some other prophets too i…e Abraham, Jacob, David and Soloman and even the father of Jesus. Include them in your list of Muhammad and Joseph Smith sahib.
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planten
Guest
What that has got to do with remarraige?? Show me One man and one woman only.
I do not go for less than Jesus. I do not go for Paul at all. Ypou show me One man and one wife only. And that it would be a sin to marry another one.
That is irrelevant. It is about divorce in which you are wrong again. It is bad to divorce a lady without serious reasons. Every one admits that. But to do away with the divorce altogether is to do away with your religion. that is what is happening to catholicism these days. Catholics are getting divorce from the courts. Where goes your religion then?
Jesus admitted that divorce was allowed by Moses. The rest of the words only show that divorce is a bad thing. That is all. It does not nullify the divorce entirely… In rest of the words, no where it says that a man cannot have two wives. Show me those words please…
That is all good words. We have similar words in islam. Show me Jesus said “Do not have two wives.”
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planten
Guest
How to prove that polygamy was the result of God’s curse. Did Jesus himself say that?? Or any other senior prophet of God say that in exact words?? The catholics have the habit of taking too much meaning out of simple words. That is not allowed.
If it is said “So that man and his wife become one, flesh” The Catholics take the meaning that the man cannot have another wife. There is no such thing in that sentence. It only shows that they should be well united in body and soul, and live happily with trust in each other. It does not mean monogamy.
Sorry. Jesus was a jew, a perfect Jew. he did not say anything in his life against the Jewish law. He only pointed out the right application of that law, which supported polygamy. However, Jesus pointed out the bad application of that law to his own people, i.e. something which they should avoid, something that the Jews should be careful about.
He never said “Do not have two wives.”
Every one misuses the law. that does not mean the law is bad. The Muslims also misbehave. But they are advised time and again never to do bad things.And about remarriage too. I don’t know about LDS, for but for Muslims, how easy it is for them to divorce – all you need to do is just to utter the word. With just a snap of the fingers you all manage to destroy the sanctity of marriage as commanded by God. Guess your prophet must have missed out the command of husband and wife being one flesh and no man can separate. The trouble was, his advisers did not disclose everything to him. I guess it’s the attraction of selective addiction. Polygamy was just right with Mohammad. Sorry not to demean the good prophet but the truth is he truly did it (polygamy) with glee. How many wives (not including the concubines) actually did he has, ahh?
But it does not mean to do away with the law, like the Catholics have done. that is a major misbehavior (sin) with the Law given by God. There is no nation on earth today who have openly abondoned the God given law except the catholics.
It is no use comparing LDS and Islam. We can leave LDS out of it. Islam is with Judaism in this regard. That is the main head (leaders) of the christian faith too. Why talk about LDS?? Talk about Abraham, Jacob and Moses and friends of Jesus along with Muslims. Only the Catholics are out of line.
Muhammad had a few wives. He did not have any concubines. he never had any relation with any lady except his wife. he never even touched any unrelated lady. When he used to take a pledge of loyality ( bay’at= baptising) from a lady, he never used to hold the hand of the lady. But he used to do that for the men only when baptising them.
In the case of Muhammad, it is all purity, pious life, like that of Jesus and Moses. But you people are guilty of finding faults with many prophets of God, mostly with Muhammad, who had been a model of excellence for all mankind till the day of judgement.
Nobody can find another excellent man like Muhammad, before or after him. Search as much as you like.
- Status