Was redimption a set-up by God?

[richardspuzzled]

Since God is omniscient, why was He suprised at man’s descent into original sin? After all, He already had Christ ready to come as a redeemer?

 

[RyanL]

Omniscient = all knowing, and therefore you cannot (by definition) “surprise” God.

 

[BryPGuy89]

richardspuzzled:

Since God is omniscient, why was He suprised at man’s descent into original sin? After all, He already had Christ ready to come as a redeemer?

It is like a parent and their children with a cookie jar ok. Parents tell them again no stay away and you will get rewarded for it later right. Well the parents know almost for sure that eventually the child or children will grab a cookie, but still want to give them the chance anyway. Maybe not the best way to explain it, but it works…

 

[VociMike]

He wasn’t surprised. He knew it would happen, and how He would save us, from before the world began. That makes His act of Creation all the more beautiful and generous.

 

[richardspuzzled]

Let me re-phrase the thrust of my question. What I’d like to know is why would God create a situation that He knew would result in a de facto failure. That is, why would God establish mankind knowing full well that man would choose to sin and need to be redeemed by Christ? God must have known this would be the outcome from what He had designed, as Christ was there even before the act of creation occurred. So God chose to put man in a postition in which He knew man would sin & need redemtion – why?

 

[VociMike]

richardspuzzled:

Let me re-phrase the thrust of my question. What I’d like to know is why would God create a situation that He knew would result in a de facto failure. That is, why would God establish mankind knowing full well that man would choose to sin and need to be redeemed by Christ? God must have known this would be the outcome from what He had designed, as Christ was there even before the act of creation occurred. So God chose to put man in a postition in which He knew man would sin & need redemtion – why?

I think “falling” is inherent in having free will, and without free will we could not freely love God. Therefore, so that we could be creatures who (some of us, at least) would freely love God and accept His love, we had to be created with free will, and therefore we fell (as did many of the angels, BTW). So Jesus’ Passion is the price God knew He would have to pay to bring forth creatures He could love and who could love Him.

It’s a powerful statement on the nature of God, who is love. As to the situation being a failure, every soul in heaven attests otherwise. O felix culpa, as the Holy Saturday Mass proclaims.

 

[Jeanette_L]

So that when all is said and done, He will end up with a bride, His Church, that has FREELY chosen Him, and chosen Him with the knowledge of His infinite LOVE for her, in that He gave His all for her, even unto His own death on a cross.

It is the most beautiful plan that could ever have been conceived. Which is why when we finally do understand it (as well as we possibly can) we cannot help but love Him totally and completely.

 

[jimmy]

richardspuzzled:

Let me re-phrase the thrust of my question. What I’d like to know is why would God create a situation that He knew would result in a de facto failure. That is, why would God establish mankind knowing full well that man would choose to sin and need to be redeemed by Christ? God must have known this would be the outcome from what He had designed, as Christ was there even before the act of creation occurred. So God chose to put man in a postition in which He knew man would sin & need redemtion – why?

God made man(includes women) because He loved. He created man with free will to choose the good and to affirm their love. He knew they would sin, but He still made them free as He is. God chooses good because He is free, therefore He made men free to choose good or not to. He allowed man to fall to bring about a greater good. He reformed man and brought about a greater union between God and man than Adam ever had. Through the Incarnation, the passion, and the ressurection Christ brought about the unification of man with God. What Christ is by nature we become by Grace.

 

[jimmy]

VociMike:

I think “falling” is inherent in having free will, and without free will we could not freely love God. Therefore, so that we could be creatures who (some of us, at least) would freely love God and accept His love, we had to be created with free will, and therefore we fell (as did many of the angels, BTW). So Jesus’ Passion is the price God knew He would have to pay to bring forth creatures He could love and who could love Him.

It’s a powerful statement on the nature of God, who is love. As to the situation being a failure, every soul in heaven attests otherwise. O felix culpa, as the Holy Saturday Mass proclaims.

Justin Martyr said that we were created in Gods image in that we have free will. God had free will and has never fallen, so it is incorrect to say that falling is inherent to free will.

 

[VociMike]

Jeanette L:

It is the most beautiful plan that could ever have been conceived.

You are so very right. Without the fall we would not have been blessed by a Savior who held nothing back, but who gave all for His beloved ones.

 

[VociMike]

jimmy:

Justin Martyr said that we were created in Gods image in that we have free will. God had free will and has never fallen, so it is incorrect to say that falling is inherent to free will.

OK, but I was thinking specifically about creatures, not God. Humans have fallen, and angels have fallen. We know of no form of created beings having free will where some have not turned away from God. I certainly acknowledge that God has free will, and that He has not fallen.

 

[jimmy]

VociMike:

OK, but I was thinking specifically about creatures, not God. Humans have fallen, and angels have fallen. We know of no form of created beings having free will where some have not turned away from God. I certainly acknowledge that God has free will, and that He has not fallen.

There were many angels that never fell either though. Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael are just a few.

 

[masterjedi747]

richardspuzzled:

Let me re-phrase the thrust of my question.

I think VociMike nailed the question right on the head (Post #4), but sure…

richardspuzzled:

What I’d like to know is why would God create a situation that He knew would result in a de facto failure.

I don’t think you can really consider it a failure. Adam and Eve failed in one sense, yes, but the human race as a whole didn’t fail. We live with the consequences, certainly, but it’sstill up to the individual, with his/her own free will to decide whether or not he/she wants to serve God.

richardspuzzled:

That is, why would God establish mankind knowing full well that man would choose to sin and need to be redeemed by Christ?

Because He loved (loves) us, and wanted (wants) all of us to be with Him forever in heaven, even though He knew (knows) that some of us would (will) ultimately reject Him.

richardspuzzled:

God must have known this would be the outcome from what He had designed, as Christ was there even before the act of creation occurred.

But it was not necessarily the outcome, since Adam and Eve did have free will. So things could have turned out differently, but yes, He (being omniscient) knew what would ultimately happen.

richardspuzzled:

So God chose to put man in a postition in which He knew man would sin & need redemtion – why?

1. Because He loved us, and wanted us all to spend eternity with Him in Heaven. True love can only be given, and thus requires free will…although it also allows the possibility of evil.
2. Because He, being God, knew that He would be able to bring an even greater good (the Redemption) out of the evil that had entered His Creation (as a result of free will).

 

[VociMike]

jimmy:

There were many angels that never fell either though. Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael are just a few.

Definitely, which is why I spoke of some who have turned away from God, in the case of both angels and humans. If I had it to say over again I would have said that being a creature with free will inherently carries with it the potential for turning away from God.