Was St. Isaac Jogues, St. Francis De Sales, etc... wrong?

[Isaac_Jogues]

No, you are being led to infer this by your desire not to follow a seemingly more difficult path. Jesus, the only name by which we are saved, started the Catholic Church. He gave it the fullness of truth. All truth is from God. Those who stumble upon a bit of Catholic truth, however small it may be, still find the truth that is from God. Pray for guidance from the Holy Spirit Whom Jesus sent to the apostles as they were given the mandate to lead the mystical Body of Christ.

Tell me what I should infer from this statement.

 

[weepixie71]

I’m not trolling, I just want to remove any contradictions that i have in my mind.

Moses could be saved for the same reasons as the Good thief and the Holy Innocents, because he was under the old law. The new is in effect. The Church started at Pentecost and Christ instituted Baptism at the Ascension.

Why would the Holy Ghost compel these saints to do this if there was no need to convert the pagans.
I think they wanted to Baptize pagans because they had true Charity (concern for souls) and were afraid of even one soul being lost.

I made a mistake, I meant to say St. Francis Xavier.

i think God has allowed martyrdom so we would see that our faith is worth dying for. and to show us that His people were indeed carring a truth so important that they were willing to suffer and die for.
the very fact that they suffered and died for their beliefs in the early church as caused my many later to convert. for no one is willing to die for something they arent sure about or a lie.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

An honest question?
I am wondering why these great saints would risk horrific tortures and death to Baptize millions of pagans if these pagans could have achieved salvation through their ignorance of the Catholic faith. Would it have not been better to leave them ignorant and allow them to follow their conscience, rather than hear the Word and reject it, and be the cause of their damnation?
Did these saints die in vain for what they thought was what God wanted?
I wanted to know what the Traditional Catholics thought about this.

Sorry to jump in late. I haven’t read the whole thread, but I want to respond to the original post:

Those who know God and who know the Gospel want to share it for its own sake. Knowing God is its own reward - not just a stepping stone to heaven. Even if a pagan might be saved without hearing about Christ in this life, it is still a great blessing for that person to hear the Gospel. Also the better he knows God in this life, the better he will be able to enjoy the beatific vision in heaven.

 

[Isaac_Jogues]

I just want to belong to a Religion that teaches that membership in it is the only way to heaven. No qualifications, no ambiguities, no stipulations, no amendments, etc…

 

[Neil_Anthony]

I just want to belong to a Religion that teaches that membership in it is the only way to heaven. No qualifications, no ambiguities, no stipulations, no amendments, etc…

Maybe you should reflect on your motivations for that… actually I think your’e joking around, but you’ve stated what is probably an unconscious desire for quite a few people. We need to bring feelings like that to prayer and ask God if this is correct.

 

[Genesis315]

I for one am glad we are not permitted from speculating as to the damnation of any particular person. That would be a great temptation to despair.

I am glad that God has revealed that one way to salvation, but I am also glad He can read our hearts and take into account our intentions and weaknesses. I am glad for the opportunity to encourage others to follow that way, but I am also glad that no one will be lost simply because I failed.

I am glad He is love and desires the ultimate good for all of us and that all men are given that opportunity. His justice and mercy go hand in hand in ways we cannot even begin to comprehend.

 

[theistgal]

By the same argument, you could say that it’s a mistake to send medical doctors to countries which don’t have them, because there’s always the risk of malpractice.

 

[Genesis315]

By the same argument, you could say that it’s a mistake to send medical doctors to countries which don’t have them, because there’s always the risk of malpractice.

Right–it’s always good to remember that the truth revealed by God is a blessing not a curse–He has revealed it and commanded us to spread it precisely because He loves everyone and wants the best for everyone.

Those already on the way to salvation already desire these blessings so sharing the truth with them fulfills their desire so that they may love and serve God in truth.

On the other hand, for those who are not yet on the way to salvation, sharing the truth may help them to see more clearly the love of God and convince them to accept the grace of God, repent of their sins, and love Him as members of the Body of His Son.

 

[theistgal]

Right–it’s always good to remember that the truth revealed by God is a blessing not a curse–He has revealed it and commanded us to spread it precisely because He loves everyone and wants the best for everyone.

I remember a very wise old Irish priest telling us in his homily, “To be sure, there’ll be Protestants and pagans and other non-Christians who’ll make it into Heaven. The only difference is, they’ll be walkin’ up a long, steep, dusty road, full of dangers and perils - while we’ll be whizzin’ past them in the air-conditioned bus!”

So look at it this way – the missionaries are just trying to help more of 'em get seats on the bus!

 

[Neil_Anthony]

I think that hearing the gospel always increases a person’s opportunity to be saved. It can never make it less likely that a person will be saved.

True, when you learn about new moral laws, you get the responsibility of following them. But those laws are there to help us on our journey. Someone who ignorantly breaks revealed moral laws is going to have a much harder time following the natural law, which all people are required to follow.

 

[Isaac_Jogues]

This all is very confusing to me. Some people say that it is so rare to be saved outside the Church and some say that it is common to be saved outside the Church.
The only logical explanation why the old Martyrs did what they did is because they believed there was no Salvation outside the Church and you must be water Baptized before death to be saved. They risked what they did because they knew there was no hope to save them otherwise (besides extraordinary means, but even this would still include membership in the Church before death).
I have received, in this thread, nothing but a bunch of watered down reasons to stay in the Church, in addition to many different opinions on the subject. The only constant is that we don’t absolutely have to be Catholic to be saved.
The point is,why become Catholic if it is not Absolutely necessary for Salvation and it is so hard to follow the norms of the Church (actually this isn’t really true anymore; Catholics can do just about anything and still remain Catholic). There is nothing that was said here that would be a 100% do or die reason to convert to the Church or stay in It.
What I have learned from these discussions and the documents of Vatican II is, these Great Saints might have died in vain.

 

[theistgal]

This all is very confusing to me. Some people say that it is so rare to be saved outside the Church and some say that it is common to be saved outside the Church.
The only logical explanation why the old Martyrs did what they did is because they believed there was no Salvation outside the Church and you must be water Baptized before death to be saved. They risked what they did because they knew there was no hope to save them otherwise (besides extraordinary means, but even this would still include membership in the Church before death).
I have received, in this thread, nothing but a bunch of watered down reasons to stay in the Church, in addition to many different opinions on the subject. The only constant is that we don’t absolutely have to be Catholic to be saved.
The point is,why become Catholic if it is not Absolutely necessary for Salvation and it is so hard to follow the norms of the Church (actually this isn’t really true anymore; Catholics can do just about anything and still remain Catholic). There is nothing that was said here that would be a 100% do or die reason to convert to the Church or stay in It.
What I have learned from these discussions and the documents of Vatican II is, these Great Saints might have died in vain.

The common sense answer, which you’ve been given by several people, is that it’s possible for someone to be saved outside the Church, but since we don’t know, we err on the side of caution and try to get them in. (Just as it’s possible for someone who’s fallen overboard to float safely to shore, but it’s preferable to get them back onto the ship - not to mention more comfortable for them!)

What part of “possible but not preferable” is it that you’re having difficulty with?

 

[Neil_Anthony]

The point is,why become Catholic if it is not Absolutely necessary for Salvation and it is so hard to follow the norms of the Church (actually this isn’t really true anymore; Catholics can do just about anything and still remain Catholic). There is nothing that was said here that would be a 100% do or die reason to convert to the Church or stay in It.

Isaac, we join the Church because we believe it is God’s will! And we believe she holds the Truth! If you’re only in the Church to avoid going to hell, you need to pray pray pray for God to increase your love for Him and for his body, the Church.

The saints did not die in vain… they died to lead people to closer communion with God in the Church. Even if those people would be saved anyway, that was something worth dying for, since it is God’s will. And to give up your life for God is a great blessing.

 

[Monica4316]

An honest question?
I am wondering why these great saints would risk horrific tortures and death to Baptize millions of pagans if these pagans could have achieved salvation through their ignorance of the Catholic faith. Would it have not been better to leave them ignorant and allow them to follow their conscience, rather than hear the Word and reject it, and be the cause of their damnation?
Did these saints die in vain for what they thought was what God wanted?
I wanted to know what the Traditional Catholics thought about this.

Hi, no they were not wrong.
Firstly, don’t take invinsible ignorance too far, just because someone never heard of Christ does not mean they will definitely be saved. It means they CAN potentially be saved, but based on what they did with what they DID know. For example, God can reveal Himself through nature, etc. But there are many of them who will go to hell too. It is in some ways easier and harder for these people to get to Heaven than us who are Catholic. It is easier cause it’s easier to accept the existence of a “higher power” in some ways than the whole redemption story. But it’s way harder too cause they don’t have the help of the Sacraments, the Church, etc. They have access to only a bit of grace.

But even if this is all incorrect, these Saints were not wrong in evangelizing the pagans cause they were doing it for God’s glory. God is glorified when people know about His Son and believe in Him and love Him. It’s not just about getting people saved, it’s for God’s glory too.

Imagine how sad you would be if you died for someone and they never knew nor cared. So in the same way God wants everyone to know about the great sacrifice and love of His Son.
Why give the devil more power by having no one ever know about Jesus.

God bless

 

[Monica4316]

That is not accurate. The Church does not teach that “millions of pagans” will achieve salvation outside of the Church and Christ. Most pagan religions are polytheistic and follow questionable immoral practices. Their consciences need to be touched by the grace of God in order to begin the process of salvation for them. This cannot be done being left alone to their own devices.

True.

 

[Eucharisted]

An honest question?
I am wondering why these great saints would risk horrific tortures and death to Baptize millions of pagans if these pagans could have achieved salvation through their ignorance of the Catholic faith. Would it have not been better to leave them ignorant and allow them to follow their conscience, rather than hear the Word and reject it, and be the cause of their damnation?
Did these saints die in vain for what they thought was what God wanted?
I wanted to know what the Traditional Catholics thought about this.

I like to think of evangelization not as saving man, but in another way which I would like to explain through an example:

Let’s say you find a man who has enough money to make the world a happy place: the poor would no longer poor, children would no longer go hunger, slaves would be bought and freed, and everyone would be well off. What would you do having met this man and known of his money? You would probably tell as many people as you could about this man, so that they could go to him and become happy.

This is an example of why the Catholic Church evangelizes. God has revealed Himself to us, and He has also revealed why He created us: to be with Him forever. God is happiness itself, so He created us that we might enjoy absolute happiness for eternity. Now, knowing God and knowing His offer, what do you expect us to do? Why, we tell as many people as we can about God, so they too can have God.

 

[Monica4316]

God can save the invinsibly ignorant not because of their ignorance but in spite of it.

and not all of them will be saved.

it IS easier for Christians to get to Heaven.

and we can’t use the argument “well we should not tell people about God cause they might reject Him” - cause if a person has something in their heart that is blocking them from God, this WOULD prevent their salvation whether or not they consciously deny HIm. In other words, when people consciously deny Christ, they didn’t come to this decision when you told them about Him, but they were already in that state of separation. Keep in mind that God will judge people based on their hearts. There are many who don’t call themselves “atheists” but are so deep within, without even knowing it. They need to hear about Christ.

 

[Monica4316]

The church emphatically teaches that there is NO SALVATION OUTSIDE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.
The Church, however, seems, since Vatican II, to use the “rule of thumb” that what is contained in other religions *which has already been revealed as true in our own *can be looked upon as a means of grace that God can use *if He so desires *to offer salvation to them. In other words, *God may choose *to use the elements of true religion prefigured in some religions to lead their followers, not into salvation itself, but to offer them - to give them opportunity - for salvation. That’s a big difference.

yes. So basically, the way I understand it, - let’s say someone believes “there is a God” but belongs to another religion. Well God can use that belief to lead them to the Church later on. Cause they already have that little bit true.

But lies are not from God. Whatever is untrue in this person’s religion will not bring them salvation. And only Christianity can lead to salvation.

I think it’s true that there is no salvation outside the Church. This doesn’t mean that only Catholics will be in Heaven, as other Christians are also united to the Church through their baptism, though not in full communion with it. But - it’s always better to be entirely inside the Church than not!! Because the devil is always prowling around looking to destroy souls and those outside the Church are in more danger cause they don’t have the protective power of the Sacraments, true teachings, Mary, the Saints, etc.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Whether the pagans, due to ignorance got into heaven or not, isn’t the only reason why we should or should not have brought them the good news of Jesus Christ.

The point of bringing them Christ, is so that they can live good lives, both here on earth and in heaven.

I’m very familiar with St. Isaac Jogues. I read the book, “Saint Among Savages,” and visited the Shrine of North American Martyrs.

The Native American populations in the North East, contrary to how many modern day revisionist try to portray them, as were not living good lives. They were brutal savages, who practiced human sacrifice, torture and cannibalism. If you doubt me, read the book. They treatment of other human beings in itself, was reason to bring them the Gospel.

Would it be better to leave them to this way of life?

The thing is, the French missionaries that came to this country, like Fr Jogues, served the Native Americans well, especially the Huron Indians, who were less savage than the Iroquois. They French opened hospitals and schools for them. They taught them how to read and write, and taught them the faith. None were Baptized against their will, but in fact, were refused Baptism, until they understood what they were doing. The French missionaries and lay apostles that traveled with them, lived among the tribes, learning their languages and culture. The French settlements in Quebec, even went so far as to exchange orphaned children with them, in order that the French children would grow up, learning their language and ways and the native children would learn French language and ways.

The fact is, the Native Americans would’ve been better served, if during the French Indian War, they helped the French to defeat the British, who always treated and viewed the Natives less than human and would never have inculurated themselves with them, as the French had done.

However getting back to the question, yes, it was right to bring Christianity to the native Americans. The Kingdom of God, begins, at Baptism. Why deny them this gift?

Jim

 

[Monica4316]

I’m really struggling here to remain in the Catholic Church, if I am able to achieve salvation outside of it. The Church’s teachings are very hard to follow. I feel that if I can follow an easier means to get to heaven then it would be better to follow that path.

Isaac, it’s not that simple.

Do you see that if you were once in the Catholic Church and then deny it just to “make it easier”, you would not only make it harder for yourself by distancing yourself from grace, you would also put your salvation in much danger… why? Because you can’t claim invinsible ignorance!! You DO know about Christ, you also know about His Church. Consider that a gift brother.

If you think it’s hard being Catholic - well Jesus has told many Saints that we can be sanctified in a greater way through our struggles and suffering.

It’s not just about barely getting into Heaven. It’s about glorifying God and doing His will by being saved AND sanctified. Those pagans you’re talking about might barely get in, they’ll also have to spend time in purgatory (which is more painful than earth, I hear)… whereas in the Church we have the opportunity to be saints and have treasure in Heaven. We’re talking about eternity here brother. Do you want to take the easy road and put your soul in danger or be safe in the Church even if that means following some difficult teachings. By the way, do you know why the teachings are sometimes difficult. That’s because we still have a lot of pride and ‘self’ in us. I’m not talking about you, but about all people and about myself too. We have to die to self. The process is hard. But it’s worth it. That’s why the martyrs died, because they knew it’s the truth and they loved God.

There’s a quote by CS Lewis that’s really good. He says - if you look for truth, you might get comfort too in the end. But if you look for comfort, you won’t find any, nor truth, and in the end you’ll just have despair. (paraphrase, as I don’t remember the exact wording).

You said that you feel confused by what people told you in the thread… but brother it doesn’t contradict. All that we’re ALL saying is that because of God’s mercy, some people who never heard of God (the number of which we DON’T KNOW) might get to Heaven. But that’s only barely, and only by God’s mercy. There aren’t any guarantees, and it’s in spite of their ignorance not because of it. But if we remain in the Church, we have a MUCH higher chance of getting to Heaven, cause God is giving us much more grace. And if we become Protestants, we’ll lose many graces!

It’s true that there is no salvation outside the Church, it’s just that there isn’t a perfect dividing line between those who are in the Church and those who are not. Catholics are definitely in. Other Christians are “sort of” in, united to us by their baptism, but not fully, and not in communion…and they are separated. Non Christians are not in the Church. Whatever they practice or believe in won’t get them to Heaven, UNLESS God takes whatever little truth they have and uses it to give them grace. But it won’t be much. It’s only because of His mercy and the prayers of the Saints that they have some hope at all. But again, it’s slim.

If I can give you any advice, I’d say - don’t look for the easiest road. Look at the Saints…they took the most difficult roads out of love for God. Love lives by sacrifice. If we love God, we won’t just care about “barely getting into Heaven”. We’d want to do His will and be the best Catholics we can be, simply because this would please Him.

Hope that’s not too difficult to hear.

God bless.