Was St. Paul baptized by immersion?

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fermat said:
That is fair and accurate. If you accept the bible as the sole source of authority, you are by definition making yourself the authority.

It’s not wise to try to tell others what there understandings mean when you don’t understand in the first place.
This becomes a conflict when what you believe contradicts the teaching of Apostles.
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Irish_Polock said:
Odd; what version of the Bible has the word “local” in it?
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Do you take your disputes to Rome?

Interesting you don’t take issue with my #1 & # 2. You only take issue with one word. Does this mean you agree the church is not needed if the issue is dealt with directly?
 
Dokimas said:
Do you take your disputes to Rome?

Interesting you don’t take issue with my #1 & # 2. You only take issue with one word. Does this mean you agree the church is not needed if the issue is dealt with directly?
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The context of St. Matt. 18:15-18 is reproving another’s sin. Obviously, if the sinner was one of my neighbors; I would discuss it first with my neighbor, then involve a mediator, and if that failed and we could not accept or discern a resolution to correct the sinner, I would involve the Church to help me discern my next coarse of action or correct the sin her self. If the sinner does not listen to the Church - I would pray, for mercy on their soul.
 
Irish_Polock said:
The context of St. Matt. 18:15-18 is reproving another’s sin. Obviously, if the sinner was one of my neighbors; I would discuss it first with my neighbor, then involve a mediator, and if that failed and we could not accept or discern a resolution to correct the sinner, I would involve the Church to help me discern my next coarse of action or correct the sin her self. If the sinner does not listen to the Church - I would pray, for mercy on their soul.
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Seems the context is for fellow church goers. When you involve the church as you mentioned above, do you go to Rome?

What about my other questions?
 
Dokimas said:
Is that normal?
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No, this would not be the norm.
Dokimas said:
How did that work out? Did you win the dispute?
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It is still in dispute, being a “Traditional” Catholic; I have many issues with some modern interpretations of the Novus Ordo Mass in the Church. Although, I do feel at least some issues are being dealt with in recent years. So I feel we have indeed progressed.
Dokimas said:
Would you go to Rome if you had a dispute with a fellow parishoner?
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I would follow the prescription that Christ has given us.
 
Irish_Polock said:
The Church is Universal. Why would I need to go to Roma?

I don’t think you need to. I would take a dispute with a church member to our church which is local. Glad to see you’d do the same if I understand your meaning here.

If your questions have not yet been address; could you please refer me to a specific question.
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I believe you have now answered my questions. Thank you.
 
placido said:
Hi all,

I had an informal debate with a Full Gospel pastor who said that those who were not immersed were not really baptized and are not true Christians.
I challenged him to either prove that St. Paul was immersed or admit that St. Paul was not true Christian.
To my surprise, he could neither prove St. Paul was immersed nor willing to accuse him of being “not true Christian”.
Surprising still, this lack of Biblical evidence did not al all worry this believer of “sola scriptura”.

placido
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According to the logic and interpretation of most Full Gospel Christians baptism is by immersion, is only symbolic, and not efficacious for salvation. Salvation is also by faith alone - you need only have faith in the Gospel and you shall be saved - which makes you a Christian. Therefore it doesn’t make sense that they would make the claim - that if a person was not baptized according to the proper mode - he is not a Christian - unless of course they are saying that baptism is in itself efficacious for salvation. Hence, a more logical way for him to put it would have been, “If one has not been immersed in baptism - he/she is a disobedient Christian - but really salvation (being a true Christian) really comes down to faith - and we know if you have true faith - you are once saved always saved.”

We know with absolute certainty that the formula for Baptism is indisputable - “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” (Mt. 28:19)

Since this is more obvious than the mode, you must first establish whether they employ this formula - given directly from the Lord Himself. If not, they are clearly in disobedience (and you only need Scripture for that).

This will also be helpful for them when they decide to reconcile with the Church, as the Church cares most about the formula, more so than the mode, and for good reasons.

Peace
 
Dokimas said:
That’s not fair or accurate. But who am I to tell you what to believe. You are welcome to your own opinion, even if it is wrong.

I NEVER said that immnersion was the only way.

As for wine, it’s the fruit of the vine and there’s two forms: fermented and unfermented. I’ll take unfermented, thank you. BTW, if you are not a priest, when was the last time you actually had wine as part of your mass? I’ve been to several masses and I’ve NEVER seen the average person going up for communion partake in the ‘wine’. The priest was the only one to partake of the wine. Very confusing if following the Biblical form!!!
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Why isn’t it fair? if you don’t acknowledge any other authority than your own interpretation then you can make your own truths. You’d have to prove my opinion wrong first.

yes, there are two forms of the fruit of the vine. But only wine was used at the last supper. I have wine at every Mass. The only time it was with held was during the bird or was it swine flu scare.
 
Dokimas said:
Words have original meanings. Those meanings should be understood before we can successfully discuss this issue. The meaning should rule the discussion, not tradition, IMO.
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What then does the word “couches” (or “tables” if you like) refer to in Mark 7:4?

++N
 
Lengthy exchanges between placido and Nine_Two
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I believe it bears mentioning that as late as the 20th century an Orthodox church purportedly still existed in Damascus on the “street called Straight.” (Acts 9:11) Which tradition held to be the the house where Ananias healed and baptized Paul. Some investigative work may be in order. Frankly I have not tried to verify it myself so it might be a wild goose chase but it sounds plausible. I know I would certainly love to know.

++N
 
tsering said:
According to the logic and interpretation of most Full Gospel Christians baptism is by immersion, is only symbolic, and not efficacious for salvation. Salvation is also by faith alone - you need only have faith in the Gospel and you shall be saved - which makes you a Christian. Therefore it doesn’t make sense that they would make the claim - that if a person was not baptized according to the proper mode - he is not a Christian - unless of course they are saying that baptism is in itself efficacious for salvation. Hence, a more logical way for him to put it would have been, “If one has not been immersed in baptism - he/she is a disobedient Christian - but really salvation (being a true Christian) really comes down to faith - and we know if you have true faith - you are once saved always saved.”
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I see. What the Full Gospel pastor said to me showed that some internal disagreement is developing in that denomination – or he simply does not understand the teachings of his own denomination.

placido
 
frnate said:
What then does the word “couches” (or “tables” if you like) refer to in Mark 7:4?

++N
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Can I offer to point you to a good lexicon so you can look for yourself?

Mt 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed <2825>: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
Mt 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed <2825>, and go unto thine house.
Mr 4:21 And he said unto them, Is a candle brought to be put under a bushel, or under a bed <2825>? and not to be set on a candlestick? {bushel: the word in the original signifieth a less measure}
Mr 7:4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables <2825>. {pots: sextarius is about a pint and an half} {tables: or, beds}
Mr 7:30 And when she was come to her house, she found the devil gone out, and her daughter laid upon the bed <2825>.
Lu 5:18 And, behold, men brought in a bed <2825> a man which was taken with a palsy: and they sought means to bring him in, and to lay him before him.
Lu 8:16 No man, when he hath lighted a candle, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a bed <2825>; but setteth it on a candlestick, that they which enter in may see the light.
Lu 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed <2825>; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Ac 5:15 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds <2825> and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them. {into…: or, in every street}
Re 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed <2825>, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

2825 κλινη kline klee’-nay

from 2827; ; n n

AV-bed 9, table 1; 10
  1. a small bed, a couch
  2. a couch to recline on at meals
  3. a couch on which a sick man is carried
 
Dokimas said:
Can I offer to point you to a good lexicon so you can look for yourself?

Mt 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed <2825>: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.
Mt 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed <2825>, and go unto thine house.
Mr 4:21 And he said unto them, Is a candle brought to be put under a bushel, or under a bed <2825>? and not to be set on a candlestick? {bushel: the word in the original signifieth a less measure}
Mr 7:4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables <2825>. {pots: sextarius is about a pint and an half} {tables: or, beds}
Mr 7:30 And when she was come to her house, she found the devil gone out, and her daughter laid upon the bed <2825>.
Lu 5:18 And, behold, men brought in a bed <2825> a man which was taken with a palsy: and they sought means to bring him in, and to lay him before him.
Lu 8:16 No man, when he hath lighted a candle, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a bed <2825>; but setteth it on a candlestick, that they which enter in may see the light.
Lu 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed <2825>; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Ac 5:15 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds <2825> and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them. {into…: or, in every street}
Re 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed <2825>, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

2825 κλινη kline klee’-nay

from 2827; ; n n

AV-bed 9, table 1; 10
  1. a small bed, a couch
  2. a couch to recline on at meals
  3. a couch on which a sick man is carried
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It is a rhetorical question.

++N
 
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