Was the American Revolution a just war?

[Bobby_A.Greene]

To first defy then overthrow your legal government in a ten year war cannot possibly be just.

It was only a minority of dissidents which egged on the sedition against their lawful government in the 13 British colonies in America between 1763 and 1776, and not a consent of the majority.

It was only Ben Franklin’s diplomatic success in 1778 to convince the French government to intervene did the American colonies have any chance at all of seceeding from their government of Britain. We lost Bunker Hill, we lost Valley Forge, and we only won at Yorktown because 16 heavy divisions of French infantry plus a full fleet of French ships under the Compte de Grasse defeated the British.

 

[Bobby_A.Greene]

All of this is true – the war came to us. We did not invade England, England invaded us.

We had always been part of Britain up to 1789. Britain had 56 colonies world-wide of which her 13 American colonies revolted and successfully seceeded from their government with lots of help from French intervention.

Britain did no more invade any of her colonies in 1776 than today’s Federal Government invades any State in 2005. But in 1860 when Southern States tried to seceed from the Federal Government, then did the Federal Government invade. Great Britain in 1776 rightfully attempted to prevent the secession of 13 of her colonies as the Federal Government in 1860 attempted to prevent the secession of the 11 Southern Confederate States.

The 13 colonies didn’t really try to legally seceed, they unlawfully rebelled against their King.

 

[vern_humphrey]

We had always been part of Britain up to 1789. Britain had 56 colonies world-wide of which her 13 American colonies revolted and successfully seceeded from their government with lots of help from French intervention.

Britain did no more invade any of her colonies in 1776 than today’s Federal Government invades any State in 2005. But in 1860 when Southern States tried to seceed from the Federal Government, then did the Federal Government invade. Great Britain in 1776 rightfully attempted to prevent the secession of 13 of her colonies as the Federal Government in 1860 attempted to prevent the secession of the 11 Southern Confederate States.

The 13 colonies didn’t really try to legally seceed, they unlawfully rebelled against their King.

That’s simply wrong. The colonies had charters which guarenteed their rights. The Crown revoked those charters.

When the people asserted their rights, the Crown sent troops to force them. That’s the invasion.

It was the Crown which made the war, not the colonists.

 

[mlchance]

Bobby A. Greene:

To first defy then overthrow your legal government in a ten year war cannot possibly be just.

All generalizations are ultimately false.
Bobby A. Greene:

It was only a minority of dissidents which egged on the sedition against their lawful government in the 13 British colonies in America between 1763 and 1776, and not a consent of the majority.

The legally elected representatives of the separate colonies made the decision to go to war.
Bobby A. Greene:

It was only Ben Franklin’s diplomatic success in 1778 to convince the French government to intervene did the American colonies have any chance at all of seceeding from their government of Britain. We lost Bunker Hill, we lost Valley Forge, and we only won at Yorktown because 16 heavy divisions of French infantry plus a full fleet of French ships under the Compte de Grasse defeated the British.

The Battle of Breed’s Hill was more costly for the British than the Americans, and the Americans ultimately won Boston. We didn’t lose Valley Forge. Valley Forge was a winter encampment, not a battle. The Americans won the war in New England prior to France’s intervention after the stunning victory of Saratoga. The English would have lost at Yorktown even if the French hadn’t showed up. The only choice the English had was surrender or retreat by sea.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[didymus]

Cedric Drudge:

I’ve been reserching aspects of the Just war theory. Using its “rules” I am unable to categorize the American Revolution as a just war. I’d like to hear others’ opinions.

I’m glad they fought it & I’m glad they won, but it can’t meet the “just war” standard.

Our Founders were a bunch of Papist-hating bigots who were loyal to the mother country only for so long as they were threatened by Catholic empires: the French in Canada and the Spanish in Louisiana and Florida.

When the Brits won the Seven Years War (of which the French & Indian War was but a sideshow) they made sacrifices at the negotiating table to guarantee the safety of H.M.'s subjects in N. America. The Brits could have let the French keep Canada and taken some income-producing Caribbean islands instead, but they didn’t.

In gratitude the colonists’ responses were, more or less in order:

“HOORAY!! WE WON!!” as if their raggedy *** militia had made any significant contribution, compared to the professional redcoats.

“What the %$@*# do you mean you’re giving those [deleted] Catholics in Canada equal rights?”

“Taxes? We won’t pay no sinkin’ taxes!”

“Hey! Who needs England? We’re AMERICANS!!”

I forget exactly when (I think the early 1770s) George III had a plan to divide the colonies into dioceses and appoint bishops which was hotly rejected by the colonists on grounds of “popery” and taken as proof that he was going to “romanise” the colonies.

The Stamp Act fell on lawyers (who had to get stamps for all legal documents) and journalists (since all published materials had to have stamps). These are two groups especially well situated to communicate their outrage to the public. I wonder if there would have been a revolution if the taxes had fallen on shipwrights and coopers?

Last but not least, let’s not forget that a lot of them were slaveowners and I suspect that made them hypersensitive to being “enslaved” by the King.

 

[vern_humphrey]

didymus:

Our Founders were a bunch of Papist-hating bigots who were loyal to the mother country only for so long as they were threatened by Catholic empires: the French in Canada and the Spanish in Louisiana and Florida.

Have you ever read Thomas Jefferson’s epitaph? (He wrote it himself.) What was this man, who had been President, Vice President, and Minister to France most proud of?

You might want to read another document the Founding Fathers wrote – the Constituition.

You might also notice that at least on Catholic signed the Declaration of Independence. And note that the Revolutionary War was no different from our other wars in one respect – Catholics, as always, took more than their share of casualties.

 

[Servus_Pio_XII]

No it wasn’t, I say that straight off. Why do you think my location is what it is? I believe this country to have been founded on one of the greatest sins and lies of human history! The Fathers were mostly members of the Masons, which, in itself, is sinful. They had no pretence for war, only a greed for a few pence and a great deal of land.

And as for this:

I guess it would depend on who fired the first shot. Which is unknown.

I would guess that the Brits, as was customary, fired off a warning shot. A stupid Rebel took this as an attack, and started shooting.

Our “freedom” is a lie. True freedom comes through self-discipline.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Servus Pio XII:

No it wasn’t, I say that straight off. Why do you think my location is what it is? I believe this country to have been founded on one of the greatest sins and lies of human history! The Fathers were mostly members of the Masons, which, in itself, is sinful. They had no pretence for war, only a greed for a few pence and a great deal of land.

And I say nonsense, straight off.

The United States was not a Masonic plot! The Founding Fathers were of many different orientations. One of the signers of the Declaration of Independence was a Catholic and more Catholics, in proportion to their numbers, died in the Revolutionary War than any other denomination.

The Founding Fathers took great care to eliminate religious discrimination at the national level – indeed, religious tests for office have only now crept back into government with the challenging of Presidential nominees on religious grounds.

 

[porthos11]

Why not read your Declaration of Independence and determine whether you agree with the charges outlined therein. Whether or not your War of Independence was just will rest on whether or not you agree with the contents of the Declaration.

 

[vern_humphrey]

porthos11:

Why not read your Declaration of Independence and determine whether you agree with the charges outlined therein. Whether or not your War of Independence was just will rest on whether or not you agree with the contents of the Declaration.

Remember, though, the Declaration of Independence was not a declaration of war. The war was already raging – and had the King of England sent no troops to enforce his measures to subjugage the colonies, there would have been no war. And very likely no Declaration of Independence.

 

[porthos11]

vern humphrey:

Remember, though, the Declaration of Independence was not a declaration of war. The war was already raging – and had the King of England sent no troops to enforce his measures to subjugage the colonies, there would have been no war. And very likely no Declaration of Independence.

True, but the Declaration contains the reasons for which the Colonies broke away from the mother country. The War was fought because the Colonists wanted to throw off the Crown’s control over them, the reasons for which later went into paper in the form of the Declaration in 1776. Whether or not a person considers the charges outlined in the Declaration as just also determines whether or not for that person the War was a just one, because the War and the Declaration were based on the same principles.

 

[mlchance]

didymus:

When the Brits won the Seven Years War (of which the French & Indian War was but a sideshow) …

The success of the North American campaign was the reason why Great Britain was able to win the Seven Years War in other theaters.

The rest of your summary is just as inaccurate or irrelevant.

Does anyone actually get taught American history anymore?

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[vern_humphrey]

porthos11:

True, but the Declaration contains the reasons for which the Colonies broke away from the mother country. The War was fought because the Colonists wanted to throw off the Crown’s control over them, the reasons for which later went into paper in the form of the Declaration in 1776. Whether or not a person considers the charges outlined in the Declaration as just also determines whether or not for that person the War was a just one, because the War and the Declaration were based on the same principles.

This section of the Declaration of Independence – although written to explain the reason for declaring ourselves to be a separate country – explains also why we were at war:

He has abdicated government here, by declaring us out of his protection and waging war against us.
He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burned our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large armies of foreign mercenaries to complete the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of cruelty and perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow citizens taken captive on the high seas to bear arms against their country, to become the executioners of their friends and brethren, or to fall themselves by their hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavored to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian savages, whose known rule of warfare, is undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

The Crown brought war to us – we didn’t bring war to England.

 

[I_A]

I was taught in high school history out of “The People’s History of the United States” by Howard Zinn.

 

[Servus_Pio_XII]

I have read my declaration, thank you very much. I did a small essay refuting as superfilities nearly every charge.

 

[amateurthomist]

Romans 13:1-7
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God’s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

God establishes the powers that be. The only response of the Christian is strict obedience to whoever God chooses as ruler. Democracy is an idea foreign to Christianity and the Bible. The revolutionary war was not just.

Also, I note that the majority of the founders were freemasons and deists and that freemasonry is at the very heart of our government. Just take a look at your dollar bill. What images are on it? One Catholic signed, so what? We don’t even know if he was a good Catholic or not. Many Catholics were also freemasons even if they weren’t supposed to be. Basically, the country was founded by greedy slave owning land robbers who distorted natural law and natural rights in order to seize power for themselves.

 

[vern_humphrey]

amateurthomist:

Also, I note that the majority of the founders were freemasons and deists and that freemasonry is at the very heart of our government.

Name the Founding Fathers who were deists (be warned, I’ve taught American History at the college level.)

amateurthomist:

Just take a look at your dollar bill.

I hate to tell you this, but our dollar bills were designed a looooooong time after the Founding Fathers were dead. Our current paper money is the fifth general design, and for much of our history we used coins rather than paper.

amateurthomist:

One Catholic signed, so what? We don’t even know if he was a good Catholic or not.

So to uphold this conspiracy theory, you’re willing to question the faith of the Catholic signer?

Before you condemn him, tell me, what was his name? And what did he do that makes him worthy of condemnation as “not a good Catholic?”

amateurthomist:

Many Catholics were also freemasons even if they weren’t supposed to be. Basically, the country was founded by greedy slave owning land robbers who distorted natural law and natural rights in order to seize power for themselves.

If you were applying for a doctorate in history and made that the theme of your dissertation, you would not get your degree.

 

[mlchance]

amateurthomist:

God establishes the powers that be. The only response of the Christian is strict obedience to whoever God chooses as ruler.

That is a nonsensical statement that is directly contradicted by any number of Catholic theologians: Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, John Paul II, et cetera.

“An unjust law is not a law.” – Saint Thomas Aquinas

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[vern_humphrey]

mlchance:

That is a nonsensical statement that is directly contradicted by any number of Catholic theologians: Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, John Paul II, et cetera.

“An unjust law is not a law.” – Saint Thomas Aquinas

– Mark L. Chance.

If amatuerthomist is correct (and I do note the irony between his handle and your quote, above) then the Germans had a duty to put the Jews into the gas chambers.

 

[La_Chiara]

didymus:

I’m glad they fought it & I’m glad they won, but it can’t meet the “just war” standard.

Our Founders were a bunch of Papist-hating bigots who were loyal to the mother country only for so long as they were threatened by Catholic empires: the French in Canada and the Spanish in Louisiana and Florida.

I love your take on the Founding Fathers!