Was the Angel of the Lord a pre-incarnate appearance of Jesus?

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DylanO

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Was the Angel of the Lord (mentioned in Genesis 16:7-14, Genesis 22:11-15, Genesis 31:11-13, Exodus 3:2-4, Numbers 22:22-38, Judges 2:1-3, Judges 6:11-23, Judges 13:3-22) a pre-incarnate appearance of Jesus? What is the Church’s stance on this subject?
 
DylanO said:
Was the Angel of the Lord (mentioned in Genesis 16:7-14, Genesis 22:11-15, Genesis 31:11-13, Exodus 3:2-4, Numbers 22:22-38, Judges 2:1-3, Judges 6:11-23, Judges 13:3-22) a pre-incarnate appearance of Jesus? What is the Church’s stance on this subject?
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***Hi, DylanO!

…I’ve always thought that it was more the Holy Spirit (the Finger of God; the Procreating Power of God; the Wisdom of God)–my type is Jesus’ Incarnation and the various passages in the Epistles which attribute to the Holy Spirit statements which were previously attributed to Yahweh God.

I have a list of Scriptures on this matter… if you would like me to post them let me know.

Maran atha!

Angel***
 
DylanO said:
Was the Angel of the Lord (mentioned in Genesis 16:7-14, Genesis 22:11-15, Genesis 31:11-13, Exodus 3:2-4, Numbers 22:22-38, Judges 2:1-3, Judges 6:11-23, Judges 13:3-22) a pre-incarnate appearance of Jesus? What is the Church’s stance on this subject?
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I would say no, for this would deny the motherhood of Mary.
 
jcrichton said:
***Hi, DylanO!

…I’ve always thought that it was more the Holy Spirit (the Finger of God; the Procreating Power of God; the Wisdom of God)–my type is Jesus’ Incarnation and the various passages in the Epistles which attribute to the Holy Spirit statements which were previously attributed to Yahweh God.

I have a list of Scriptures on this matter… if you would like me to post them let me know.

Maran atha!

Angel***
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Sure, I would appreciate that.
 
NotWorthy said:
I would say no, for this would deny the motherhood of Mary.
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That cannot be. For we know Jesus is co-eternal with the father. Pre-incarnate would be before He took on flesh (ie Mary become his mother).

Justin Martyr wrote that it was Jesus who walked with Adam and Eve in the garden Jesus who spoke through the burning bush (the Word of God). Though not incarnate, He existed and interacted with man through all time. Until in the fullness of time he emptied himself and took the form of a slave. Prior to this He had not emptied himself but was still the Word of God.
 
DylanO said:
. . . a pre-incarnate appearance of Jesus?
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John 8:56-58-
“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw {it} and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."
 
Hi Dylan,

Before the incarnation, there was no Jesus. Another angel tells Joseph, “You shall call him Jesus”. Future.

As for the Word, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, there is no reason to believe that he is especially represented by any angel from the passages you quote.

The Church has an official interpretation for very few passages of the Bible.

Verbum
 
Evan said:
That cannot be. For we know Jesus is co-eternal with the father. Pre-incarnate would be before He took on flesh (ie Mary become his mother).

Justin Martyr wrote that it was Jesus who walked with Adam and Eve in the garden Jesus who spoke through the burning bush (the Word of God). Though not incarnate, He existed and interacted with man through all time. Until in the fullness of time he emptied himself and took the form of a slave. Prior to this He had not emptied himself but was still the Word of God.
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I didn’t say Jesus didn’t exist prior to the incarnation. I simply said He didn’t have the human body that died on the Cross until the incarnation.

I thought that was the idea put out. So yes, Jesus, the Divine Being, can speak to mankind throughout the OT times, but Jesus, the Incarnate, could not have.
 
NotWorthy said:
I didn’t say Jesus didn’t exist prior to the incarnation. I simply said He didn’t have the human body that died on the Cross until the incarnation.

I thought that was the idea put out. So yes, Jesus, the Divine Being, can speak to mankind throughout the OT times, but Jesus, the Incarnate, could not have.
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I think I get confused some times when we speak of Jesus and the 2nd person of the trinity. I’ve always used the name Jesus for the 2nd person (ie they are the same), but I know some on this forum distinguish between the two. Here you seem to be distinguishing the two.

If it was an angel in the original post, it would have taken human form. If it was 2ndPerson, it would have taken human form (not yet a he?). Human FORM, but not incarnate in both cases: angel or God.

We physical (body and soul) interact best with a sensible presence even though the person is pure spirit.
 
Evan said:
I think I get confused some times when we speak of Jesus and the 2nd person of the trinity. I’ve always used the name Jesus for the 2nd person (ie they are the same), but I know some on this forum distinguish between the two. Here you seem to be distinguishing the two.

If it was an angel in the original post, it would have taken human form. If it was 2ndPerson, it would have taken human form (not yet a he?). Human FORM, but not incarnate in both cases: angel or God.

We physical (body and soul) interact best with a sensible presence even though the person is pure spirit.
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Yes, Jesus is, was, and always will be the 2nd Person of the Trinity. But, Jesus did not have a human body until the Incarnation.

John’s Gospel makes it very clear that Jesus has always been.*** “In the Beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God and the Word was God”***.

Vinny Flynn in his book, “7 Secrets of the Eucharist”, explains it rather well.
The Church teaches that at the words of Mary’s Fiat: “Let it be done to me according to your word,” a human nature, with a body and a soul, was created from her through the power of the Holy Spirit and was fused forever to the divine nature of the second person of the Trinity.

As the Catechism explains,
[This] does not mean that Jesus Christ is part God and part man, nor does it imply that he is the result of a confused mixture of the divine and the human. He became truly man while remaining truly God. #464
Jesus Christ is one divine person with two distinct natures — one totally human, one totally divine. These two natures are so inseparable that the divine person of Christ “remained united to his soul and body, even when these were separated from each other by death” (CCC #650); and, when the Father raised Christ up. He “perfectly introduced His son’s humanity, including His body, into the Trinity” *(CCC *#648).
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I doubt it. The world “Angel” means “Messenger of God”. If these were Angels in the more conventional sense, they were independent spiritual beings. Regardless, they were messengers of God, and although they might pre-figure the Incarnation, they cannot be the messenger of God and God at the same time. You don’t send yourself to deliver a message for yourself. If it were God in any of the persons, it would not have said “Angel”. Even in the OT, there is distinct line drawn between God and His servants.
 
Well, I’m not entirely sure about this subject. The Angel of the Lord may not be Jesus, but possibly God the Father or God the Holy Spirit.

It seems somewhat implied that the ‘Angel of the Lord’ is God,
  • Genesis 16:7-14. The Angel of the Lord appears to Hagar. The Angel speaks as God in the first-person, and in verse 13 Hagar identifies the visitor as God.
  • Genesis 22:11-15. The Angel of the Lord appears to Abraham and, again, refers to God in the first-person.
  • Genesis 31:11-13. The Angel of God speaks to Jacob in a dream and tells him “I am the God of Bethel”.
  • Exodus 3:2-4. The Angel of the Lord appears to Moses in a flame in verse two, and God speaks to Moses from the flame in verse four.
  • Numbers 22:22-38. The Angel of the Lord meets the prophet Balaam on the road. In verse 38, Balaam identifies the Angel who spoke to him as God.
  • Judges 2:1-3. The Angel of the Lord appears to Israel and identifies Himself as God.
  • Judges 6:11-23. The Angel of the Lord appears to Gideon. In verse 14 the Angel refers to Himself as God; in verse 21 the Angel allows Gideon to sacrifice to Him as to God, and in verse 22 Gideon fears for his life because he was in the presence of God.
  • Judges 13:3-22. The Angel of the Lord appears to Manoah and his wife, and, in verse 22, is identified as God.
 
DylanO said:
Well, I’m not entirely sure about this subject. The Angel of the Lord may not be Jesus, but possibly God the Father or God the Holy Spirit.

It seems somewhat implied that the ‘Angel of the Lord’ is God,
  • Genesis 16:7-14. The Angel of the Lord appears to Hagar. The Angel speaks as God in the first-person, and in verse 13 Hagar identifies the visitor as God.
  • Genesis 22:11-15. The Angel of the Lord appears to Abraham and, again, refers to God in the first-person.
  • Genesis 31:11-13. The Angel of God speaks to Jacob in a dream and tells him “I am the God of Bethel”.
  • Exodus 3:2-4. The Angel of the Lord appears to Moses in a flame in verse two, and God speaks to Moses from the flame in verse four.
  • Numbers 22:22-38. The Angel of the Lord meets the prophet Balaam on the road. In verse 38, Balaam identifies the Angel who spoke to him as God.
  • Judges 2:1-3. The Angel of the Lord appears to Israel and identifies Himself as God.
  • Judges 6:11-23. The Angel of the Lord appears to Gideon. In verse 14 the Angel refers to Himself as God; in verse 21 the Angel allows Gideon to sacrifice to Him as to God, and in verse 22 Gideon fears for his life because he was in the presence of God.
  • Judges 13:3-22. The Angel of the Lord appears to Manoah and his wife, and, in verse 22, is identified as God.
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I believe “Angel” means “messenger”. Isaiah’s visions and John’s in Revelation clearly describe there being angels, so we know they exist.
 
NotWorthy said:
I believe “Angel” means “messenger”. Isaiah’s visions and John’s in Revelation clearly describe there being angels, so we know they exist.
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I’m not denying that there are angels, what I mean is that it appears that the specific ‘Angel of the Lord’ mentioned in the above scriptures may be a theophany, an appearance of God in physical form.
 
I happen to have a book called "Angels Among Us’ by Ron Rhodes in which he discusses that very question. He subscribes to the theory that the Angel of the Lord (note the capitals) was actually the preincarnate Christ. He notes that where the phrase Angel of the Lord is used, the word “Angel” doesn’t refer to a created being, but has its literal meaning: “messenger” or “one who is sent”.

Mr. Rhodes uses 3 lines of evidence to suuport his theory:
  1. The Angel is identified as being Yahweh, or God;
  2. Although the Angel is God, he is also seen to be distinct from Yahweh;
  3. The Angel must be Christ because of what we know about the nature and function of each person in the trinity.
  4. The Angel of the Lord is in fact God, as seen in these passages:
    (a) Exodus 3:1-2, “…the Angel of the Lord appeared to [Moses] in flames of fire from within a bush.” The “angel” identifies himself to Moses as “the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.”(Exodus 3:6a) When Moses asked God what name he should give the Israelites, he was told to say “I Am has sent me to you”. No mere angel would identify himself this way.
    (b) Genesis 22:12 "…the Angel said “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me you son, your only son.” It’s clear that withholding Isaac from the Angel of the Lord is that same as withholding him from God.
    (c) Genesis 16:10, after Hagar fled into the desert the Angel appeared and promised that He would increase her descendants so that they would be too numerous to count. An ordinary angel wouldn’t have the power to make such a promise, only God can.
    In other instances, the Angel of the Lord forgave sins (Exodus 23:21), received worship (Joshua 5:14 and Exodus 3:5); and accepted sacrifices (Judges 13:19-23); and he always spoke on His own authority.
  5. The Angel of the Lord is distinct from Yahweh, as shown in Zechariah 1:12 and again in Zechariah 3:1-2. In both passages the Angel of Yahweh is calling on Yahweh, one person of the trinity is interceding before another person of the trinity, much the same way as Jesus prayed to his Father. Hebrews 7:25 says that Jesus lives to intercede for those who come to the Father through Jesus.
  6. Mr. Rhodes lists 5 considerations why the Angel of the Lord must be the second person of the trinity.
    (a) Christ is the only person of the trinity who has manifested visibly (John 1:14, “The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us”. Paul tells us in Colossians 1:15 and 1 Timothy 1:17 that no one has seen or can see God the Father. John tells us the same thing in John 1:18 and 5:37. John also records Jesus as saying that the Spirit cannot be seen by the world but his disciples can know him because he lives in them.
    (b) The Angel of the Lord and Jesus were both sent by the Father. This seems to be the relationship between the first and second person of the trinity, the Sender and the Sent One.
    (c) Both the Angel of the Lord and Jesus interceded to the Father and called upon the Father. We never see the reverse situation, the Father interceding to the Angel or to Jesus.
    (d) Both the Angel and Christ had similar ministries. Besides interceding for people, they revealed the truth, commissioned people for service, delivered the enslaved, comforted the downcast, protected God’s servants, and acted as Judge, among other things. (The passages cited in the book are too numerous to list here.)
    (e) The Angel of the Lord doesn’t appear anywhere after Jesus is born. After centuries of appearing to God’s people, the Angel suddenly disappears from the bible.
    It’s also important to note that in every other instance of an angel appearing, he is always referred to as an angel and did not allow anyone to worship him.
Mr. Rhodes notes that there are many early theologians who also held this view: Irenaeus (A.D. 125-200), church father Justin Martyr (A.D. 110-166), church father and defender of the faith Tertullian (A.D. 160-220), Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 150-220), Origen (A.D. 185-254), Theophilus of Antioch (?-181), Cyprian (A.D. 200-258), Hilary (A.D. 315-367) and Saint Basil (A.D. 330-379). John Calvin wrote “For even though he [Christ] was not yet clothed with flesh, he came down, so to speak, as an intermediary, in order to approach believers more intimately. Therefore this closer intercourse gave him the name of angel. Meanwhile, what was his he retained, that as God he might be of ineffable glory.”
I pretty much paraphrased an entire chapter in the book, but I find his arguments persuasive.
 
John 1:18 and 6:46 tells us that no man has seen the Father. So, appearances like Exodus 3 and Isaiah 6 are likely the Son.

But, I am interresting in seeing your list where you think those appearances are the Holy Spirit.
 
Daniel_Marsh said:
John 1:18 and 6:46 tells us that no man has seen the Father. So, appearances like Exodus 3 and Isaiah 6 are likely the Son.
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They are likely the Son only if the Angel is God.

Why does the phrase “Angel of God” mean it is God? I’m still confused here.
 
DylanO said:
Sure, I would appreciate that.
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***Hi, DylanO!

The Scriptures you cited speak about God’s various interventions as Pro-Creator, Provider, Protector, Guide, Teacher… all of these aspects are true of the Holy Spirit as well–compare your Scriptures with the following:

The Holy Spirit is All-Knowing (Wisdom), Pro-Creator, Omnipotent, Teacher:

The spirit of the Lord, indeed, fills the whole world, and that which holds all things together knows every word that is said. (Wisdom 1:7)

Or if you are eager for wide experience,
she knows the past, she forecasts the future;
she knows how to turn maxims, and solve riddles;
she has foreknowledge of signs and wonders,
of the unfolding of the ages and the times. (Wisdom 8:8)

9 With you is Wisdom, she who knows your works,
she who was present when you made the world;
she understands what is pleasing in your eyes
and what agrees with your commandments.
10 Dispatch her from the holy heavens,
send her forth from your throne of glory
to help me and to toil with me
and teach me what is pleasing to you,
11 since she knows and understands everything.
She will guide me prudently in my undertakings
and protect me by her glory. (Wisdom 9:9-11)

10 These are the very things that God has revealed to us through the Spirit, for the Spirit reaches the depths of everything, even the depths of God. 11 After all, the depths of a man can only be known by his own spirit, not by any other man, and in the same way the depths of God can only be known by the Spirit of God. (1 Corinthians 2:10-11)

21 All that is hidden, all that is plain, I have come to know,
instructed by Wisdom who designed them all.
22 For within her is a spirit intelligent, holy,
unique, manifold, subtle,
active, incisive, unsullied,
lucid, invulnerable, benevolent, sharp,
23 irresistible, beneficent, loving to man,
steadfast, dependable, unperturbed,
almighty, all-surveying,
penetrating all intelligent, pure
and most subtle spirits;
24 for Wisdom in quicker to move than any motion;
she is so pure, she pervades and permeates all things.
25 She is a breath of the power of God,
pure emanation of the glory of the Almighty;
hence nothing impure can find a way into her.
26 She is a reflection of the eternal light,
untarnished mirror of God’s active power,
image of his goodness.
27 Although alone, she can do all;
herself unchanging, she makes all things new.
In each generation she passes into holy souls,
she makes them friends of God and prophets;
28 for God loves only the man who lives with Wisdom.
29 She is indeed more splendid than the sun,
she outshines all the constellations;
compared with light she takes first place,
30 for light must yield to night,
but over Wisdom evil can never triumph. (Wisdom 7:21-30)

17 As for your intention, who could have learned it, had you not granted Wisdom and sent your holy spirit from above? 18 Thus have the paths of those on earth been straightened and men been taught what pleases you, and saved, by Wisdom.” (Wisdom 9:17-18)

21 At the same time, we must be careful to remember that the interpretation of scriptural prophecy is never a matter for the individual. 21 Why? Because no prophecy ever came from man’s initiative. When men spoke for God it was the Holy Spirit that moved them. (2 Peter 1:20-21)

Please also compare the OT’s with the NT’s passages.

Maran atha!

Angel***
 
Evan said:
I think I get confused some times when we speak of Jesus and the 2nd person of the trinity. I’ve always used the name Jesus for the 2nd person (ie they are the same), but I know some on this forum distinguish between the two. Here you seem to be distinguishing the two.

If it was an angel in the original post, it would have taken human form. If it was 2ndPerson, it would have taken human form (not yet a he?). Human FORM, but not incarnate in both cases: angel or God.

We physical (body and soul) interact best with a sensible presence even though the person is pure spirit.
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***Hi, Evan!

…Jesus is the post Incarnation 2nd Person of the Holy Trinity… though He always exists as God, He did not become Incarnate till the “Fullness of Times.”

Since Yahweh God, known as the Father, and Jesus (Yeshua, Messiah, Immanuel…), and the Holy Spirit are the three Divine Persons of the Holy Trinity they are forever in Existence With each other and In each other (…the Word was with God and the Word was God…); so it is quite possible that Jesus or the Holy Spirit took on Human form, as the Father took on Human form; yet, what is not possible is that these forms were as ours, human.

Spiritual Beings as they Are (I Am) they could become as human but not be human (flesh and blood with all the limitations that that entails)… so even if Christ did take on a form similar to humans He did not become flesh and blood till His Incarnation in the Virgin Mary’s womb.

Maran atha!

Angel***
 
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