Was the burning of heretics justified?

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They didn’t shut up when told to. There was no recognized right to free speech then….
We say that we have free speech right?
There are two teen girls facing years of prison time if they are convicted of a hate crime. Their crime? Passing out anti-gay literature.
So much for free speech. I do not agree with that the girls did. But I will defend their right to free speech. Slowly, the political correctness in this country will work to suppress free speech when those who make the laws and who sit in judgment can shut up those who have different beliefs. Why? Because we have slipped back into society believing that free speech is only acceptable when a person agrees with them.
This is why I do not like hate crime laws. When one person kills another, we know exactly what happened… someone was harmed. With hate crime laws the courts will not determine what a person was thinking at the time of the crime… a very dangerous slope… especially if a person thinks that the inquisition was wrong to imprison or sanction those who had different ideas.
How is trying these two girls and throwing them in prison for years acceptable?
 
I don’t think I‘ve ever heard a protestant admit to or take historical responsibility for the murderous and other horrific acts of their ancestors. At least Catholics admit to what occurred even if a few Catholics mistakenly think that nothing the chruch does can be wrong.
I agree with everything else in this post, but I’ve heard plenty of Protestants admit their religions were responsible for many atrocities. rr1213 has been doing a lot of that right in this thread.
You are right that the idea of free speech is a new one. It was a new fangled idea invented in American. You blame the lack of free speech laws on the Catholic Church?
No, just as I don’t blame it on the Protestants either. Both Catholics and Protestants have done a lot of harm, and thankfully most of their modern descendants have the gumption to admit to it. Some, as shown here, don’t.
You are wrong that in the cases where people were executed talking was not their only crime. There have always been Catholics who have challenge the Church. The Church has a system for handling these this, it has often led to changes in the church after the topic was discussed and handled. You are describing here the distorted view of the inquisition that has been passed down through history… compiled from rumors.
What did Jan Hus do, besides talk? He was not the only one.
What you will find is that when people start their anti-Catholic ****, many Catholics will answer that yep the Church was right. End of discussion. You and other anti-Catholics would not believe anything but the propaganda you spout. So why bother. You’re happy hating Catholics. Who are we to take away the fun derived from it? 🤷
I have no axe to grind against the Catholic Church especially. It’s done a lot of good for the world; but along the years, it’s done a lot of harm too. Those who blindly hold it up as a shining, flawless jewel of human and divine accomplishment are misrepresenting and distorting its history to the point of unrecognizability. The jewel has a few dull facets, but in general it does shine.

I’m not your enemy. You have enough of those within the walls of your own church, and possibly in your own mirror, to be looking for more.
 
Since it was the civil authorities who choose to burn poeple to death, this will need to be taken up with them. The Catholic Church has never burned anyone.

That would have been news to Paul IV & Pius V, both of whom were zealous in their support for the Roman Inquisition, which was restored in 1542. Indeed, Cardinal Alessandrino (as Pius V had been) was a most energetic inquisitor; which was one of the reasons Paul IV admired him so greatly)​

It is sophistical, & untrue, to deny that the Church was responsible for taking lives of those considered to be heretics. That is the worst kind of apologetics. Jack Chick & some Catholics deserve each other 😦

As for Protestant brutalities - they might not have happened, had Catholicism not set Protestants an evil example.

To say the SI was not as bad as sometimes described, is a world away from showing that it (or any other) was positively good. AFAICS, the only proper standard of comparison is the Gospel, because we are meant to be Christians.

As for Mirdath’s post - 👍 👍 👍
 
I agree with everything else in this post, but I’ve heard plenty of Protestants admit their religions were responsible for many atrocities. rr1213 has been doing a lot of that right in this thread
I’ll have to go back and read rr1213’s posts…
No, just as I don’t blame it on the Protestants either. Both Catholics and Protestants have done a lot of harm, and thankfully most of their modern descendants have the gumption to admit to it. Some, as shown here, don’t.
There are some on all sides that don’t admit wrongs.
I have no axe to grind against the Catholic Church especially. It’s done a lot of good for the world; but along the years, it’s done a lot of harm too.
My comment was sort of in jest as I’ve spoken to some who seem to make sport of anti-Catholicism. People will uphold or tear down the church as suits their viewpoint.
My view is that the Church has erred many times. After the fall of the Roman empire it was the only thing around that could fill the void and stepped up to the plate to take the lead on the political side. Europe was being over run by
And in doing so it made many mistakes as most leaders of people do. I view the Church as I view mankind… good in so many ways, flawed in some ways but I’m part of it and hence cannot leave it. While I recognize that all Christians are indeed Christians, I have a very hard time with all of the thousands of sects… all saying that they are the only one who is right. The Catholic & Orthodox are the original Church. I will stick with that and not try to sort out thousands of different view points most of which did not even exist until 1000 to 1400 years after the death of Christ. I was non-practicing for years for all the reasons you and other talk about. But in recent years I’ve come to believe that the only way to keep the Church on track is to have good people stay.
Those who blindly hold it up as a shining, flawless jewel of human and divine accomplishment are misrepresenting and distorting its history to the point of unrecognizability. The jewel has a few dull facets, but in general it does shine.
.
I have never met one Catholic that states that the clergy of the Church have been shinning and flawless. They do say that the word of God, and the Church doctrine derived from is its infallible. I tend to agree.
Yes there are Catholics who twist history until it is unrecognizable. And there are anti-Catholics who do the same thing in the other direction. The truth is somewhere in the middle. We need to honestly determine the good and the bad. There is a lot of good that the Church needs to be given credit for and that we should strengthen. There is also the bad. We have to determine what that bad really was and learn from it … both for secular society and for the Church.
 
What did Jan Hus do, besides talk? He was not the only one.
I’ll post what I found in a quick search on him…
In 1414 he was summoned to the Council of Constance, with the Emperor guaranteeing his personal safety even if found guilty. He was tried, and ordered to recant certain heretical doctrines. He replied that he had never held or taught the doctrines in question, and was willing to declare the doctrines false, but not willing to declare on oath that he had once taught them. The one point on which Huss could be said to have a doctrinal difference with the Council was that he taught that the office of the pope did no exist by Divine command, but was established by the Church that things might be done in an orderly fashion (a view that he shared with Thomas More). The Council, having just narrowly succeeded in uniting Western Christendom under a single pope after years of chaos, was not about to have its work undone. It accordingly found him guilty of heresy, and he was burned at the stake on 6 July 1415.
Apparently the Church thought he was a threat to their authority in a time and place where weakness could have led to resurgence of war and mayhem.
At first sight, the grounds for Hus’ prominence are plainly obvious and hardly need justification. He led the first religious movement in Europe which could be considered Protestant, 100 years before Martin Luther. He directly challenged both the Catholic Church and Holy Roman Empire and gave his name to a movement which brought about revolution.
After his death, his followers continued to insist on the importance of administering the Holy Communion in both kinds, and defeated several armies sent against them.
Well apparently for a man who only spoke he seems to have stared a lot of bloodshed… it was after his death. The question now might be was the Church right in seeing him as a threat… were his actions treason? I don’t know. 🤷 He sure caused a lot of trouble.
****http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bio/7.html
****http://www.blisty.cz/art/12632.html
**

**
 
I’ll post what I found in a quick search on him…

Apparently the Church thought he was a threat to their authority in a time and place where weakness could have led to resurgence of war and mayhem.
Yeah, that’s talking.
Well apparently for a man who only spoke he seems to have stared a lot of bloodshed… it was after his death. The question now might be was the Church right in seeing him as a threat… were his actions treason? I don’t know. 🤷 He sure caused a lot of trouble.
Huh, any other non-violent preacher give rise to a legacy of violence and ‘trouble’? Somebody name of Jesus?
 
Yeah, that’s talking.
Yes the Church was protecting its power… it is the power that helped to glue together and create what we call Western Civilization. They had just finished centuries of war. From all I’ve read, the Church was trying to keep the tides of war from breaking out all over the place. I don’t think they could have done anything to stop it…

Was Huss a threat? Did the Vatican know more then we do about the case? I’m sure they did. Did it point to him being a threat to peace? Was he more involved in an insurgency then the brief articles I read stated? Maybe it was a case in which war would have broken out no matter what happened to him.

Maybe the people were just looking for a reason to fight and his death was only a good excuse. There was a lot of that in the reformation… Religion was use as an excuse by men who only sought power.
Huh, any other non-violent preacher give rise to a legacy of violence and ‘trouble’? Somebody name of Jesus?
Now you are comparing a Huss to Jesus? lol

Jesus had authority. Huss did not.
 
Too bad the Puritans hung a few Quakers back in the day, in Boston.
Nice people, the Puritans. I am directly descended from a colonist who came to Massachusetts in 1632, got kicked out with Roger Williams and some others who went on to form Rhode Island. Religious freedom actually started in R.I. (He was a Quaker.)

The Puritans witnessed for Christ by doing things like stabbing Native Americans at the dinner table and sticking their heads on a flagpole for all to see.
 
Now you are comparing a Huss to Jesus? lol

Jesus had authority. Huss did not.
So you say. Hus’ followers would be rather animated in their disagreement with you, much as the Apostles would if someone told them the man they followed was a quack.

As far as legacies go, Hus inspired a brief war. Jesus inspired two millennia and counting of strife. It makes neither evil, and both are responsible for a lot of good as well.

How about an easier analogy, since even Hus would deny he had the authority of a messiah – Hus and the pope. As leaders of their respective denominations, they are equals in authority.
 
How about an easier analogy, since even Hus would deny he had the authority of a messiah – Hus and the pope. As leaders of their respective denominations, they are equals in authority.
Hardly… :tsktsk:

So you are saying now that Huss purposely lead a group of people to break away from the Catholic Church and set himself up as the athority and equal to the pope?
 
Hardly… :tsktsk:

So you are saying now that Huss purposely lead a group of people to break away from the Catholic Church and set himself up as the athority and equal to the pope?
Much like Peter as the first pope purposely led a group of people to break away from Judaism? Yes. Both men were doing what they thought was right, were willing to suffer torment and death for it (and did), and had followers who believed that what they followed was good.

As for authority, that comes not from the individual but from the followers. If they didn’t think Peter/Hus deserved spiritual authority, they wouldn’t have followed, ‘on this rock’ notwithstanding. The fishermen would have gone back to fishing and the peasants would have stayed peasants.

Jan Hus died a martyr for God, as did Peter. If you hold that the killing of Hus for the crimes of thinking and talking was proper and just and moral, then Peter too was rightly and justly executed, no martyr but a mere common criminal.
 
Much like Peter as the first pope purposely led a group of people to break away from Judaism? Yes. Both men were doing what they thought was right, were willing to suffer torment and death for it (and did), and had followers who believed that what they followed was good.

As for authority, that comes not from the individual but from the followers. If they didn’t think Peter/Hus deserved spiritual authority, they wouldn’t have followed, ‘on this rock’ notwithstanding. The fishermen would have gone back to fishing and the peasants would have stayed peasants.

Jan Hus died a martyr for God, as did Peter. If you hold that the killing of Hus for the crimes of thinking and talking was proper and just and moral, then Peter too was rightly and justly executed, no martyr but a mere common criminal.
Jim Jones had followers. They all drank the koolaide and are now martyrs… wow … so as long as someone preaches and gets followers they have authority and equivalent to Paul…

Jesus picked Paul and Peter. Thats a hugly different then Jan Huss deciding that he alone knew better then all people who preceeded him.
 
We say that we have free speech right?
There are two teen girls facing years of prison time if they are convicted of a hate crime. Their crime? Passing out anti-gay literature.
So much for free speech. I do not agree with that the girls did. But I will defend their right to free speech. Slowly, the political correctness in this country will work to suppress free speech when those who make the laws and who sit in judgment can shut up those who have different beliefs. Why? Because we have slipped back into society believing that free speech is only acceptable when a person agrees with them.
This is why I do not like hate crime laws. When one person kills another, we know exactly what happened… someone was harmed. With hate crime laws the courts will not determine what a person was thinking at the time of the crime… a very dangerous slope… especially if a person thinks that the inquisition was wrong to imprison or sanction those who had different ideas.
How is trying these two girls and throwing them in prison for years acceptable?
Let’s take a look at a few actual reports on this situation, which don’t seem to mesh with “throwing them in prison for years” for “handing out anti-gay literature.”

According to news reports, the girls were passing out fliers specifically targeting (in some way not specified) a single male classmate (the neighbor of one of the girls) with whom one of them had apparently been feuding, with a picture of him kissing another boy and hateful statements about homosexuals. They face charges of disorderly conduct, resisting a peace officer and hate crime.

One girl has been placed on home detention. The other has been denied that because she has a lengthy juvenile record (12 or 13counts, reports seem to vary), including marijuana possession, driving without a license, trespass, curfew violations, possession of tobacco by a minor and consumption of alcohol by a minor. She is being held in the juvenile detention center rather than home detention because of concerns about supervision in her home environment.

“If found guilty, the girls could face **up to 30 days **in juvenile detention, probation or an unspecified sentence with the Illinois Department of Corrections’ youth division.”

nwherald.com/articles/2007/05/23/news/local/doc4653c5f26214f191392216.txt

dailyherald.com/news/mchenrystory.asp?id=315686

examiner.com/a-744799~Teen_girls_face_hate_crime_charges_over_anti_gay_flier.html

Is this case a violation of First Amendment rights? Is there sufficient evidence to charge the girls with hate crimes and disorderly conduct? I don’t know, because I (like pretty much everyone else) do not have access to all of the information–what did the fliers actually say? Was the photo real or photoshopped? What was the disorderly conduct? In what way did they resist a police officer?

In any case, it would seem that it is certainly more complicated than two upright young women innocently handing out literature trying to convert those that they believe have different beliefs from their ways and see the light with the only intent to be helpful.
 
Jim Jones had followers. They all drank the koolaide and are now martyrs… wow … so as long as someone preaches and gets followers they have authority and equivalent to Paul…
According to his followers, yes, Jim Jones was a moral authority, and one they were (some of them, anyway) willing to die for. From the outside, we both think Jones was wrong; from the outside, I think Paul was wrong. See the equivalence?
Jesus picked Paul and Peter. Thats a hugly different then Jan Huss deciding that he alone knew better then all people who preceeded him.
Jesus never met Paul, and Jesus did not pick Peter’s successors. Jesus also has just about nothing to do with the comparison between Peter and Hus in this case beyond inspiring the former (and, indirectly, the latter). Peter led a group of people into schism from a religion. Hus led a group of people into schism from a religion. People followed Peter because they believed he had moral authority. People followed Hus because they believed he had moral authority. Peter was martyred for his beliefs. Hus was martyred for his beliefs. Just because you are a follower of Peter does not make what he did at all different from Hus’ actions. A Jew might well think the same of Peter as you do of Hus.
 
People followed Peter because they believed he had moral authority. People followed Hus because they believed he had moral authority. Peter was martyred for his beliefs. Hus was martyred for his beliefs. Just because you are a follower of Peter does not make what he did at all different from Hus’
Show me where in the Sacred Scripture it is written that the Lord took Hus to oneside from the rest of the Apostles and commissioned him to lead the Lord’s people. Just one short quote will do. If not a full quote, then I will settle for half a quote. If not a half, then may be half a sentence. If that fails, just one word 😛
 
All of this very much reminds me of arguments I hear about the practice of slavery in the American South.

I am a Southern American woman. My family has been in this area for over 250 years and I take pride in my heritage and identity as such. Many great things have come out of the culture of my heritage, but so have some awful things. I have documented evidence that many of my specific ancestors owned slaves, not just that they were part of a culture that did so. Do I consider this even partially justifiable? No, I do not. It was shameful, horrific and morally wrong then, it is so now… period, end of statement.

I have heard all the arguments seeking to justify or mitigate the horrors of slavery, and they sound very familiar:
—it was considered an accepted part of society at the time (burning people at the stake was considered acceptable at the time)
—the South wasn’t the only group that had slaves (Protestants killed heretics, too, not just Catholics)
— yes, there are stories of torture and mistreatment, but that was only by a few select people. Overall, the slaves weren’t really treated as badly as you think, they were considered valuable and treated well because they were an investment and most considered themselves part of the family and were grateful to their masters (burning to death wasn’t really as bad as you think it would be, and they didn’t really “torture” heretics, just tried to persuade them to return to the fold)
—the slaves were better off as slaves than if they had been left in Africa because many were converted to Christianity and they would have been damned if left as they were so it was in the end a good thing (it was better that heretics be tortured until they recanted and returned to the proper religion and then strangled before being burned as an act of mercy than left in their heresies because it saved their souls)
—the southern economy would have collapsed without slave labor so it had to continue for the good of the state (religious heresy was a threat to the state)
—many slaves had it better than free blacks in the North as they at least had food and shelter (what was done to heretics wasn’t as bad as what was being done to others in the same time)
—publicly killing in the most painful way possible habitual escapees was an unfortunate necessity to keep the rest from trying to escape to freedom, because it would have threatened the economy, political stability (slaves counted as 3/4 of a person for purposes of political representation and without that the South would have had less power in the governance of the country) and safety of the whites (habitual heretics deserved what they got because allowing them to live with their heresies and possibly infect others was too dangerous on many fronts)
—it was considered okay because at the time, many Southerners believed that the Bible taught that blacks weren’t really human, did not have souls, etc in the same way that whites did (heretics are in some fundamental way radically different from us, so it is okay to do to them what we would never consider acceptable if done to us by another group)

I think the arguments on each topic hold up equally well, to wit, not at all.
 
According to his followers, yes, Jim Jones was a moral authority, and one they were (some of them, anyway) willing to die for. From the outside, we both think Jones was wrong; from the outside, I think Paul was wrong. See the equivalence?
Nope…. You will of course believe as you choose.
Jesus never met Paul,
According to scripture, Jesus came to Paul after the resurrectoin. Thus turning a learned man who persecuted Christians into a man who believed in the divinity of Christ… turning him on a dime. Many believe that this is proof of Jesus chooseing Paul. So yes Paul did meet Jesus… after the reserection.
and Jesus did not pick Peter’s successors.
What was put in place was a way for the authority to be passed on from generation to generation. If this were not valid, then we are left with nothing but a bunch of people who interpit and preach taking there followers in different directions. Then we get what we find in Protestanism…. A whole lot of disagreement and confusion. This is a topic we will probably never aggree on.
 
GREAT POST KarenNC!!!
🙂
All of this very much reminds me of arguments I hear about the practice of slavery in the American South.

I am a Southern American woman. My family has been in this area for over 250 years and I take pride in my heritage and identity as such. Many great things have come out of the culture of my heritage, but so have some awful things. I have documented evidence that many of my specific ancestors owned slaves, not just that they were part of a culture that did so. Do I consider this even partially justifiable? No, I do not. It was shameful, horrific and morally wrong then, it is so now… period, end of statement.

I have heard all the arguments seeking to justify or mitigate the horrors of slavery, and they sound very familiar:
—it was considered an accepted part of society at the time (burning people at the stake was considered acceptable at the time)
—the South wasn’t the only group that had slaves (Protestants killed heretics, too, not just Catholics)
— yes, there are stories of torture and mistreatment, but that was only by a few select people. Overall, the slaves weren’t really treated as badly as you think, they were considered valuable and treated well because they were an investment and most considered themselves part of the family and were grateful to their masters (burning to death wasn’t really as bad as you think it would be, and they didn’t really “torture” heretics, just tried to persuade them to return to the fold)
—the slaves were better off as slaves than if they had been left in Africa because many were converted to Christianity and they would have been damned if left as they were so it was in the end a good thing (it was better that heretics be tortured until they recanted and returned to the proper religion and then strangled before being burned as an act of mercy than left in their heresies because it saved their souls)
—the southern economy would have collapsed without slave labor so it had to continue for the good of the state (religious heresy was a threat to the state)
—many slaves had it better than free blacks in the North as they at least had food and shelter (what was done to heretics wasn’t as bad as what was being done to others in the same time)
—publicly killing in the most painful way possible habitual escapees was an unfortunate necessity to keep the rest from trying to escape to freedom, because it would have threatened the economy, political stability (slaves counted as 3/4 of a person for purposes of political representation and without that the South would have had less power in the governance of the country) and safety of the whites (habitual heretics deserved what they got because allowing them to live with their heresies and possibly infect others was too dangerous on many fronts)
—it was considered okay because at the time, many Southerners believed that the Bible taught that blacks weren’t really human, did not have souls, etc in the same way that whites did (heretics are in some fundamental way radically different from us, so it is okay to do to them what we would never consider acceptable if done to us by another group)

I think the arguments on each topic hold up equally well, to wit, not at all.
 
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