Was the burning of heretics justified?

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Context can be used to justify such things politically, maybe, but it is moral justification we are talking about. An absolutist code simply does not allow for lapses of convenience.
And this is the crux of the matter. One may be able to argue that something such as burning and torture of heretics or slavery or genocide or what have you is politically expedient, economically expedient and socially expedient, but if, as the Catholic Church maintains, morality is absolute, if it is morally wrong now, it was morally wrong then.

To answer the statement by the OP:
I believe that these actions, at the time, were justified because heresy is the cause for the damnation of souls and we execute people for murdering the body but heretics murder thousands of souls with their false teachings.
The ends do not justify (or make moral) the means. It does not matter that those who burned heretics had good intentions in doing so. To quote a proverb of the 16th century: “The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.” Morality is about actions, not intentions. It is possible to engage in what are considered immoral acts for the best of intentions.
 
That was my point. Burning at the stake is inhumane I don’t think anyone where would argue that. It was used at the time because they thought it was a more humane method and it is being called torture. Hanging in shackles with barely enough food to live, getting bitten all types of bugs and diseased rodents, and having no light is also torture. You know rats have been known to gnaw on the helpless living. Everyone can pretty easley guess what burning at the stake is like torture wise how about living in the conditions in a medieval prison. Have you really thought that out? Either they are both morally reprehensible and should be out right condemned or you have to take both in the historical context. You can’t have it both ways.
To say that burning alive could even briefly be considered ‘more humane’ than any of a variety of other forms of execution is a ludicrous fantasy.

We should strive to be as humane as possible in all respects. Some things we can’t improve beyond a certain point – like imprisonment. Some, like outright torture and autos-da-fe – we certainly can.
That’s true, but how many of those cases actually ended up in execution?
Where is the exhaustive documents of someone that was burned at the stake for simply (and only) thinking differently? Or were they also inciting people, or teaching that is okay to commit suicide, or any other serious crime.
Jan Hus.
 
Weigh the alternatives, in the case of a murderer: the workforce loses one member to prison, or it loses many to murder and its effects on friends and family. Of course simple execution is the easiest way out! Does that mean we should do it? And torture before death – what purpose does that serve?

One would hope that the spirit of Christian charity would extend even to the criminal and to the enemy, as I believe it’s supposed to.
Ahh yes, the spirit of Christian charity would condemn the innocent poor to be poorer, work harder and die faster while the criminals to live out there life in prison. This makes total sense!
‘Exhaustive and very technical rules’ don’t make anything moral or just. That torture was used on those who simply would not recant their beliefs, even as ‘a last resort’, is horrifying.
No one said it did or was.
 
To say that burning alive could even briefly be considered ‘more humane’ than any of a variety of other forms of execution is a ludicrous fantasy.

We should strive to be as humane as possible in all respects. Some things we can’t improve beyond a certain point – like imprisonment. Some, like outright torture and autos-da-fe – we certainly can.
Well we know that beheading is inhumane and there is no way of knowing how painful that really is, poisoning can be very painful. They knew burning was far more humane than crusifixsion. I suppose they could have just drowned people.

The point is they thought it was. That doesn’t make it any less inhumane, it just means they were on the road to growing.
Instead of going back to what was already said about him I did a quick Google search myself. Other than the obviously biased works canonizing the man its pretty easy to find out he was inciting the populace in an already very turbulent period.
 
Some made weak attempts, perhaps, but agreed, there is no and can be no proper apologesis here, from anyone, of any faith. Mistakes were made. We are human, and mistakes are a big part of what we do. All that was in another country and besides…

Besides which, the misery and horror continues.
 
And this is the crux of the matter. One may be able to argue that something such as burning and torture of heretics or slavery or genocide or what have you is politically expedient, economically expedient and socially expedient, but if, as the Catholic Church maintains, morality is absolute, if it is morally wrong now, it was morally wrong then.
What is lacking is proper definitions and proper context. The death penalty is not intrinsically evil. It may be used. Even certain forms of slavery are not intrinsically evil. Torture may be intrinsically evil, but that too needs to be defined before it is condemned.

The problem I have with this thread is people paint the inquisition period with a broad brush, redefine things, then condemn it based on their redefinitions.
 
Please, fix, do share with us about the slavery and the torture. I’d really like to hear this.

Edit: maybe I don’t want to hear it, but…I can take it, and well, you know what I mean.
 
Even certain forms of slavery are not intrinsically evil. Torture may be intrinsically evil, but that too needs to be defined before it is condemned.
Okay, I’ll bite. Which forms of slavery and torture are you advocating as morally acceptable for use by Christians?

As to definition, I will accept Merriam Webster’s definition as a starting point:

Torture: 1 a : anguish of body or mind : AGONY b : something that causes agony or pain
2 : the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure

or dictionary.com
  1. the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty.
  2. a method of inflicting such pain.
  3. Often, tortures. the pain or suffering caused or undergone.
  4. extreme anguish of body or mind; agony.
  5. a cause of severe pain or anguish.
    –verb (used with object) 6. to subject to torture.
  6. to afflict with severe pain of body or mind: My back is torturing me.
  7. to force or extort by torture: We’ll torture the truth from his lips!
  8. to twist, force, or bring into some unnatural position or form: trees tortured by storms.
  9. to distort or pervert (language, meaning, etc.).
Interesting that the very word “torture” entered the English language during the time period we are discussing (from the online etymological dictionary)

torture (n.)
c.1495 (implied in torturous), from M.Fr. torture “infliction of great pain, great pain, agony,” from L.L. torture “a twisting, writhing, torture, torment,” from stem of L. torquere “to twist, turn, wind, wring, distort” (see thwart). The verb is 1588, from the noun. Tortuous “full of twists” is recorded from 1426.
 
Weigh the alternatives, in the case of a murderer: the workforce loses one member to prison, or it loses many to murder and its effects on friends and family. Of course simple execution is the easiest way out! Does that mean we should do it? And torture before death – what purpose does that serve?
Certainly it wasn’t because they were inherently bloodthirsty since it was the last effort made by the Church to avoid handing a person over to the secular authorities for the real permanent punishment.
One would hope that the spirit of Christian charity would extend even to the criminal and to the enemy, as I believe it’s supposed to.
I believe the evidence shows that, regarding those criminal proceedings, the Church strived to offer much mercy and charity while at the same time upholding the law.
‘Exhaustive and very technical rules’ don’t make anything moral or just. That torture was used on those who simply would not recant their beliefs, even as ‘a last resort’, is horrifying.
It does provide context though.
 
Certainly it wasn’t because they were inherently bloodthirsty since it was the last effort made by the Church to avoid handing a person over to the secular authorities for the real permanent punishment.
Why torture at all, if one is going to hand the victim over to be executed?
It does provide context though.
And context is meaningless when discussing moral absolutes.
 
Please, fix, do share with us about the slavery and the torture. I’d really like to hear this.

Edit: maybe I don’t want to hear it, but…I can take it, and well, you know what I mean.
My point about torture is to say people using the word often intend different things.

Please see this:torture

Now, I am not saying at that time torture did not happen and that it was morally licit. I am just trying to be accurate.

As for slavery the Church has always said chattel slavery was intrinsically wrong. But, I think other forms may be licit depending on circumstances:

slavery
However, there are circumstances in which a person can justly be compelled to servitude against his will. Prisoners of war or criminals, for example, can justly lose their circumstantial freedom and be forced into servitude, within certain limits. Moreover, people can also “sell” their labor for a period of time (indentured servitude).
 
Okay, I’ll bite. Which forms of slavery and torture are you advocating as morally acceptable for use by Christians?

As to definition, I will accept Merriam Webster’s definition as a starting point:

Torture: 1 a : anguish of body or mind : AGONY b : something that causes agony or pain
2 : the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure

or dictionary.com
  1. the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty.
  2. a method of inflicting such pain.
  3. Often, tortures. the pain or suffering caused or undergone.
  4. extreme anguish of body or mind; agony.
  5. a cause of severe pain or anguish.
    –verb (used with object) 6. to subject to torture.
  6. to afflict with severe pain of body or mind: My back is torturing me.
  7. to force or extort by torture: We’ll torture the truth from his lips!
  8. to twist, force, or bring into some unnatural position or form: trees tortured by storms.
  9. to distort or pervert (language, meaning, etc.).
Interesting that the very word “torture” entered the English language during the time period we are discussing (from the online etymological dictionary)

torture (n.)
c.1495 (implied in torturous), from M.Fr. torture “infliction of great pain, great pain, agony,” from L.L. torture “a twisting, writhing, torture, torment,” from stem of L. torquere “to twist, turn, wind, wring, distort” (see thwart). The verb is 1588, from the noun. Tortuous “full of twists” is recorded from 1426.
So, when a prisoner today claims being confined to a cell is torture does that make it so?
 
Well we know that beheading is inhumane and there is no way of knowing how painful that really is, poisoning can be very painful. They knew burning was far more humane than crusifixsion. I suppose they could have just drowned people.

The point is they thought it was.
Crucifixion was not a form of execution in medieval Europe. It was abolished by Constantine in 337 CE, therefore it is not any more relevant to the discussion than whether they thought burning was more humane than being trampled by an elephant, as was used for execution in Southeast Asia at the time.

I asked earlier for the basis for the repeated assertion that people of the time period chose burning because they thought it was more humane than other forms of execution. Do you have any contemporary evidence for that? No one else seems ready to come forward with any.

Again, if it was widely considered to be a much easier death than other available methods of execution, why were lesser crimes (since the argument is that heresy is treason) given harsher punishments such as hanging or beheading?
 
So, when a prisoner today claims being confined to a cell is torture does that make it so?
If it were done with the foreknowledge that that person suffered from a condition in which such confinement would cause extreme mental or physical agony (ie placing someone who is severely claustrophobic in a small, windowless cell), for the purpose of extracting information, yes. If the cell were constructed in such a way as to preclude normal range of movement (such as the boxes used on prisoners of war that were too small to allow them to either lay or stand) or normal conditions (metal boxes in the full sun with no ventilation, wired to shock, extremely cold, etc) or some other condition existed, so that it was done with the foreknowledge that it would be intentionally as painful as possible in an effort to extract information not obtainable otherwise, yes.

You are correct in that there is indeed an element of relativity to what is torture and what is not, as there are circumstances under which actions that might in the normal course of things be considered torturous. To take the example given by the person in the link you referenced–to twist someone’s arm behind them under normal circumstances may be painful, but not necessarily considered torture by most people. If it is done to someone whose arm or shoulder is already injured for the purposes of intensifying the pain in order to extract information, even if the desire to obtain that information is to do what someone considers good with it, then it is torture.

Basically it boils down to using methods that one knows will inflict as much pain and suffering as possible on another human being for the purposes of forcing them into saying or doing something that you desire in order to make the pain and suffering stop.
 
Why torture at all, if one is going to hand the victim over to be executed?
though the Church was content with a spiritual sentence on the part of its bishops and was averse to the shedding of blood, nevertheless it was aided by the imperial severity, inasmuch as the fear of corporal punishment drove the guilty to seek a spiritual remedy (Ep. xv ad Turribium; P. L., LIV, 679 sq.).

newadvent.org/cathen/08026a.htm
And context is meaningless when discussing moral absolutes.
I agree. I have much evidence to maintain the Church wished to avoid bloodshed against heretics at all cost from the earliest Church (300AD or so). Man’s free will is the basis of all that we believe as Catholics. To coerce a man to believing in Christ undermines the free will choice of that man. Most often when left up to the Church to decide punishment, the person was excommunicated and that was it. As secular authorities took responsibility for protecting the Church, and its moral authority in the name of society, that’s when these cruel and unusual punishments for heresy came into being.

At this point the Church still maintained its position that bloodshed for heresy was not right.

But the latter, particularly St. Hilary of Poitiers (Liber contra Auxentium, c. iv), protested vigorously against any use of force in the province of religion, whether for the spread of Christianity or for preservation of the Faith. They repeatedly urged that in this respect the severe decrees of the Old Testament were abrogated by the mild and gentle laws of Christ. However, the successors of Constantine were ever persuaded that the first concern of imperial authority (Theodosius II, “Novellae”, tit. III, A.D. 438) was the protection of religion and so, with terrible regularity, issued many penal edicts against heretics.
 
And then:
At the close of the forth century, and during the fifth, Manichaeism, Donatism, and Priscillianism were the heresies most in view… Though they were found guilty of abominable teachings and misdeeds (St. Augustine, De haeresibus", no. 46), the Church refused to invoke the civil power against them; indeed, the great Bishop of Hippo explicitly rejected the use force. He sought their return only through public and private acts of submission, and his efforts seem to have met with success. Indeed, we learn from him that the Donatists themselves were the first to appeal to the civil power for protection against the Church. However, they fared like Daniel’s accusers: the lions turned upon them. State intervention not answering to their wishes, and the violent excesses of the Circumcellions being condignly punished, the Donatists complained bitterly of administrative cruelty. St. Optatus of Mileve defended the civil authority (De Schismate Donatistarum, III, cc. 6-7) as follows:
. . . as though it were not permitted to come forward as avengers of God, and to pronounce sentence of death! . . . But, say you, the State cannot punish in the name of God. Yet was it not in the name of God that Moses and Phineas consigned to death the worshippers of the Golden Calf and those who despised the true religion?

In his (St. Augustine) correspondence with state officials he dwells on Christian charity and toleration, and represents the heretics as straying lambs, to be sought out and perhaps, if recalcitrant chastised with rods and frightened with threats of severer but not to be driven back to the fold by means of rack and sword . On the other hand, in his writings against the Donatists he upholds the rights of the State: sometimes, he says, a salutary severity would be to the interest of the erring ones themselves and likewise protective of true believers and the community at large (Vacandard, 1. c., pp. 17-26).
 
So one must ask, Why would St. Augustine on one had condemn the bloodshed of those who “simply believe in a different religion than us”, and on the other hand maintain the Donatists as a group worthy of such punishment? Perhaps the Donatists were indeed a criminal group and they needed to be attended to. Perhaps they were attempting to seek refuge for their crimes under the guise of ‘religious freedom’. Perhaps not. But St. Augustine was a wise man, and there has to be a logical explanation for the seeming incongruence of his comments.
 
If it were done with the foreknowledge that that person suffered from a condition in which such confinement would cause extreme mental or physical agony (ie placing someone who is severely claustrophobic in a small, windowless cell), for the purpose of extracting information, yes. If the cell were constructed in such a way as to preclude normal range of movement (such as the boxes used on prisoners of war that were too small to allow them to either lay or stand) or normal conditions (metal boxes in the full sun with no ventilation, wired to shock, extremely cold, etc) or some other condition existed, so that it was done with the foreknowledge that it would be intentionally as painful as possible in an effort to extract information not obtainable otherwise, yes.

You are correct in that there is indeed an element of relativity to what is torture and what is not, as there are circumstances under which actions that might in the normal course of things be considered torturous. To take the example given by the person in the link you referenced–to twist someone’s arm behind them under normal circumstances may be painful, but not necessarily considered torture by most people. If it is done to someone whose arm or shoulder is already injured for the purposes of intensifying the pain in order to extract information, even if the desire to obtain that information is to do what someone considers good with it, then it is torture.

Basically it boils down to using methods that one knows will inflict as much pain and suffering as possible on another human being for the purposes of forcing them into saying or doing something that you desire in order to make the pain and suffering stop.
My original point to your previous post was that folks seems to say burning of heretics was wrong, the Church claims there are moral absolutes yet layed them aside during this age.

In responding to that type of assertion I wanted to show that it is not as cut and dry as people want it to be. This entire thread shows that we must put things in perspective, read history without projecting our biases onto it, and define things properly.

Was burning heretics justified? I say the state, during that era, was justified in administering the death penalty to those who would destabilze society so much that society could collapse.

So, the OP question needs to be put in perspective and defined properly.
 
And further evidence seems to indicate that the people of a society became so enraged at the seemingly pansy way the Church delt with heretics, they began to usurp the authority of the state or church and take matters into their own hands:

The people disliked what to them was the extreme dilatoriness of the clergy in pursuing heretics. In 1144 Adalerbo II of Liège hoped to bring some imprisoned Catharists to better knowledge through the grace of God, but the people, less indulgent, assailed the unhappy creatures and only with the greatest trouble did the bishop succeed in rescuing some of them from death by fire. A like drama was enacted about the same time at Cologne, while the archbishop and the priests earnestly sought to lead the misguided back into the Church, the latter were violently taken by the mob (a populis nimio zelo abreptis) from the custody of the clergy and burned at the stake. The best-known heresiarchs of that time, Peter of Bruys and Arnold of Brescia, met a similar fate – the first on the pyre as a victim of popular fury, and the latter under the henchman’s axe as a victim of his political enemies.
 
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