Was the burning of heretics justified?

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ok…ok…why can’t you other people explain like BelFarfalla?? ha…kidding. Maybe I was not willing to listen too. :whistle:

I see the point here…although, it’s sad that so much blood has been shed because of man’s perceptions and pride…no??
Agreed!

:amen:
 
Rather than ask ‘was the burning of heretics justified’, it might be better to ask ‘IS’ the burning of heretics justified?

Some contributors to this forum seem on a relentless war of persecution of Islam that makes me think that Muslims have been demonised as witches. Once demonised, it is then easy to persecute without a conscience.

Given an opportunity there would be burnings and plenty of them. All denom’s would have representatives loading the faggots.

If someone called for a match, you’d be at risk of getting crushed in the rush! :o
 
So you agree that morality is not absolute and unchanging, but must be interpreted in the light of the societal customs of the time?
Morality is unchanging. We often misunderstand the underlying moral issue. In the example you gave of the death penalty for some actions that Christians believe that Jesus set aside. The issue were perhaps two fold. Adultery is a mortal sin in both the OT and the NT. So why the execution in the OT and not the NT. The other issue was preservation of society. In a small nomadic tribe, adultery among its members could ripe the tribe apart. If the tribe is ripped apart it could cause devastation like no one being willing to work together for the good of the whole.

By the time Jesus came society was very different… Adultery could not lead to the destruction of an entire tribe.

There is another issue that in the OT many of the laws have to do with breaking the pagan customs of the Jewish tribes. Many of worshipers of the pagan gods engaged in orgies, ritualistic rapes, etc as part of the worship. So making adultery and fornication punishable by death could have been to end these practices. By the time Jesus came along the Jews had finally become truly monotheistic people.

Many of the laws in exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy serve the two purposes… to protect the unity of the Hebrew tribes and hence ensure their strength and to put an end to age old pagan practices that were against monotheism.

For example the commandment to wear tassels on their robes was to distinguish them as one people… sort of like the gangs do today with their ‘uniforms’.

The commandment to not cut the hair at the temples and to not trim the beard on the sides goes back to the worshipers of Ra (it think he’s the God). The worshipers of Ra used to cut their hair short at the temples and trim their beads so that they were rectangular… look at ancient Egyptian pottery. They are filled with paintings of men with this ‘do’. So the point was to not honor Ra and to not look like the worshipers of Ra.

The one about not planting a field with mixed plantings. This was in reference to a pagan practice of planting a field with mixed plants that were believed to have power. When the plants were in bloom, then the pagans would hold a ritual in the field, gathering some of the plants and burning them, etc. But just standing in such a field was believed by them to give the pagan worshiper power.

I’ve read some writing that say that the reason eating pork was outlawed is that it was the favorite sacrificial animal in many pagan sects. Remember that in the old days people ate the meat after a sacrifice. So not eating pig was a strong statement that the Hebrew tribe totally rejected paganism.

It’s not that morality is relative or changes, it’s that often we misunderstand the moral issue at hand.
 
Morality is unchanging. We often misunderstand the underlying moral issue…

Many of the laws in exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy serve the two purposes… to protect the unity of the Hebrew tribes and hence ensure their strength and to put an end to age old pagan practices that were against monotheism…
So, which of the Jewish laws are absolutely unchanging, and which are changeable?
 
So you agree that morality is not absolute and unchanging, but must be interpreted in the light of the societal customs of the time?
For the sake of the discussion, I did not go into greater detail and make my statement clear. For that I apologize for the misunderstanding it may have caused.

The short answer is I do believe morality is absolute and unchanging AND is defined by the constraints of our existence- not necessarily social customs.

The beauty of God’s laws are that they just ARE. They are timeless as much as they are able to be applied on every age of history, and any society. With that said, each society has constraints (geographical etc.) which help to define for that society the “spirit” of God’s law rather than the letter.

Further discussion on this should probably happen in a new thread though so as not to derail the current discussion.
 
So, which of the Jewish laws are absolutely unchanging, and which are changeable?
Note your use of words here. You did not ask which of God’s laws are unchanging, you asked which of the Jewish laws are unchanging. Where or not you meant to make this distinction, it is a very significant one.

There are 613 commandments or laws in the OT. They are simply stated in the Bible. But the Talmud goes into them much further.

Ten of those commandments are God’s unchanging laws… The Ten Commandments. Note that when Jesus was asked which were the most important commandments, he answered that if a person followed two… Love God and love your neighbor as yourself… that they would be fulfilling all of the other commandments. Those two are the ultimate test of any action.

The other 603 are a covenant between God and the Hebrews. If you study the laws in Exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy you will see some differences. This is because the Hebrews were in different situations at each of these times… we see that the law (the ten commandments) are applied according to the situation. This occurs again when Jesus came. The OT is very important to Christians in many ways. One of them is to come to understand how the Ten Commandments were implemented via the other, subordinate laws. Note that Jesus chastised the Jews for being too legalistic and too harsh. That the intent was never for the level of harshness in law as it grew into. For example while people are told to keep the Sabbath holy, it did not mean that when work was necessary it could not be done. It did not mean that the people who had to work on Sunday to feed their family that they were to be punished as an apostate…. There is no punishment when there is a necessity.

Another thing that is important about the OT laws and the Talmud is to learn who the Jews implemented the laws as a lot of this is considered to be revelation too. For example there is a place in the Bible where it says that a daughter should get the inheritance of the father if they have no brothers. Some people think that this means that until that time Jewish women got no inheritance and that even then they only get it if there are no brothers. This is far from true. At the time of marriage Jewish women were given their inheritance. Their husband also gave them a bride gift. This was their sole and separate property that the husbands could not use. An unmarried girl would receive her inheritance when the parent died. The new law was about who got the father’s estate if there were no sons (note that the daughters already got theres). Some said that what would have been a son’s share should go to male relatives. The new law stated that it all goes to the daughter(s).

The study of Biblical laws, the Ten Commandments, Jewish laws and how they apply to Christians is an entire area of study. It is not trivial. But those who study this are very clear on which ones were abrogated by Jesus and why.
 
Arguably ‘to speak ill of another’ is to kill them. It can do horrendous damage to reputations etc, so it could be argued that not only burning of heretics but even to speak ill of them is also not justified.
 
Arguably ‘to speak ill of another’ is to kill them. It can do horrendous damage to reputations etc, so it could be argued that not only burning of heretics but even to speak ill of them is also not justified.
HUH?

When you say heretic here are you speaking only of those who believe differently or of those who attack others or those who took it so far as to commit violence?

We should have catagories of heretics here.

Heretic_1 … just peacefully has believes differntly
Heretic_2 … like Heretic_1 + publically verbally attacks the establishment and/or doctrine.
Heretic_3 … like Heretic_2 + encourages and even participates in violence against those they disagree with. (basically is a violent criminal.
Heretic_4 … like Heretic_3 + plus commits treason against the state.

There, now we can all state exactly the level of heretic we are talking about. Maybe it would lead to more understanding.

I think that steaking out about Heretic_3 & _4 is totally justified and necessary.

Heretic_1 - Leave them alone, they are at worst misguided… at best have something new to teach us. It is fine to discuss their ideas and believes but not to attack them as a person.

Heretic_2 - stand up to their words but do not attack them personally.
 
BelFarfalla posted:
When you say heretic here are you speaking only of those who believe differently or of those who attack others or those who took it so far as to commit violence?

We should have catagories of heretics here.

Heretic_1 … just peacefully has believes differntly
Heretic_2 … like Heretic_1 + publically verbally attacks the establishment and/or doctrine.
Heretic_3 … like Heretic_2 + encourages and even participates in violence against those they disagree with. (basically is a violent criminal.
Heretic_4 … like Heretic_3 + plus commits treason against the state.

I am amazed, I did not know that. I had absolutely no idea there was a definitive list. It makes sense I suppose. Thankyou Belfarfella for pointing that out 👍
 
Heretic_1 … just peacefully has believes differntly
Heretic_2 … like Heretic_1 + publically verbally attacks the establishment and/or doctrine.
Heretic_3 … like Heretic_2 + encourages and even participates in violence against those they disagree with. (basically is a violent criminal.
Heretic_4 … like Heretic_3 + plus commits treason against the state.

I think that steaking out about Heretic_3 & _4 is totally justified and necessary.

.
By “steaking out”, you mean execution?
 
Posted by Belfarfella:
Heretic_3 … like Heretic_2 + encourages and even participates in violence against those they disagree with. (basically is a violent criminal.
I am aware there were some pretty nasty violent thugs around who were alleging to act in the name of God, when the Church invoked some of its Inquisitions to eradicate their violence.

I am aware also that some of these groups not only enacted violence but encouraged others to do likewise so that even after they had left, their evil cancer was still having a devastating effect.

Someone posted to me ‘the Church used violence to suppress violence’ as if that was wrong. Actually it was not the Church but the civil authorities and isn’t that what our troops do!

I am against any form of violence except for defence but sadly sometimes it is necessary that the war has to be taken back to the enemy. Sadly it is necessary to use violence to combat violence.

I fail to understand how anti-catholics interpret 20-30 deaths of violent thugs as ‘millions’ and how these violent offenders suddenly get labelled as ‘bible believing Christians!’ 😛
 
Categories 3 and 4 were not the only heretics killed. Once again, the siege of Beziers: 20,000 people by Arnaud-Amaury’s own count, men, women, and children. What had the children done?
 
Categories 3 and 4 were not the only heretics killed. Once again, the siege of Beziers: 20,000 people by Arnaud-Amaury’s own count, men, women, and children. What had the children done?
Hey! They were HERETICS, simply a bit on the young side. That’s all you need to know…:rolleyes:
 
Mirdath posted:
Categories 3 and 4 were not the only heretics killed. Once again, the siege of Beziers: 20,000 people by Arnaud-Amaury’s own count, men, women, and children. What had the children done?
It amazes me how eager some are to find fault with Catholics while being conveniently blind to their own.😛

What about the 2 000,000 men women and children who perished in Ireland through deliberate and willful actions because they were Catholic?

It is false to say ‘there were no crops’ because the barns of the landowners were full while the people starved to death.

But, lets not talk about what we did to those nasty Catholic children, lets talk about what those nasty Catholics did to us!:rolleyes:
 
Categories 3 and 4 were not the only heretics killed. Once again, the siege of Beziers: 20,000 people by Arnaud-Amaury’s own count, men, women, and children. What had the children done?
I have never claimed that categories 3 & 4 were the only ones who were killed.

The issue of Beziers is one of war not of the Inquisition. Remeber that this thread is about the inquistions, not about the Crusades.

From the little I know of Arnaud-Amaury, he was a maniac. I believe that he got the idea that such a slaughter was acceptable because of the OT accounts of such slaughters.
 
By “steaking out”, you mean execution?
[OMG… just noticed the word error… most likely a MS Word auto correct problem. I generally write my posts in word then copy them to the forum. I meant ‘speaking out’… not … well not what it looks like…:bigyikes: ]

You need to go back and look at the flow of the conversation… I was responding to the below post.
Arguably ‘to speak ill of another’ is to kill them. It can do horrendous damage to reputations etc, so it could be argued that not only burning of heretics but even to speak ill of them is also not justified.
My point was that it is justifiable to speak ill of those who are criminals in that they are actually harming people … attacking them, killing them, causing war against the society.

I was basically asking Sixtus if he meant that it was also wrong to speak ill of those who were committing violent crimes as part of their heresy. For instance the Cathars whose dogma supported assisted suicide. Their heresy basically included murder. The two could not be separated on this point. Other heresies had beliefs that they authorized by God to overthrow the secular state and install theocracies of their on invention. Again the heretical beliefs and the actions were entwined.

Your question addresses a different point… not speaking out but execution. I absolutely believe that society has the right to execute those who commit violent crimes and call for armed insurgency or war. These are violent actions, not merely thoughts and beliefs. Do you disagree with this?
 
I am amazed, I did not know that. I had absolutely no idea there was a definitive list. It makes sense I suppose. Thankyou Belfarfella for pointing that out 👍
The names are mine, but I’ve seen documents where the Church distinguished between them.

I am sure that there were some heretics of type _1 & _2 who were executed based on the out come of their inquistion trial. Our court system make this mistake sometimes too… finding the innocent guilty.

But typically types 1 & 2 were treated with a lot of lenience by the inquistions.
 
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