Was the Church *really* so awful?

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spunjalebi

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As a rather young convert to the faith, I have a trust in the Church and am very hopeful that we as laypeople, working with clergy can restore the Church and help it through hard times. Older people are often surprised by my “optimism” regarding the Church because in their opinion, it was just plain awful.

A lot of these people are usually in their 40’s, 50’s, and are older than that. They always talk about how everyone knew that altar boys were being abused but the Church is all about secrecy and protecting itself and how they’d always turn a blind eye, or how awful the Church was in preventing them from getting married in the Church because marriage tests showed they were not a good match (and interestingly enough, a lot of those people ended up divorced!), or how the nuns would threaten them if they ever told their parents what really happened, etc. I have to admit, I don’t really know how to think about the things people tell me about the Church because my experience has been so different.

Oh, I am thoroughly aware of the fact that there were abuses going way back, and to this day archdiocese have been protecting priests who have abused children or had sexual relationships with women and ended up fathering a child. I am fully aware, but the transgressions of people don’t break my faith in the Church, nor does it break my resolve to believe that things will get better.

When I do research to validate some of the accusations people have against the Church, I often can’t find any kind of information to back up what they say-- usually what I find has to do with the molestation but not much else. I keep hearing things from people that the Church likes to cover up the awful things they did and how the younger people should be aware and not think so highly.

Can any of this really be true? Or are people allowing their experiences to get the better of them? Was the Church really all about “pray, pay, and obey”?
 
“Was the Church really so awful?”

No! Disordered priests and cowardly bishops did cowardly or even cruel things. These people alone do not define the Church. The most important part of the Church is Christ and His teachings. Her teachings had NOTHING to do with the evils of the child abuse scandal, not even the discipline of priestly celibacy, which is NOT a teaching. If anyone says that “everyone” knew there was abuse going on, then ask them why THEY didnt do anything to stop it? Everyone did NOT know there was abuse. Im in the age range you mentioned as the group that tells you such things. I never heard of such issues in my parish or Diocese until the news broke in the media. If anyone knew of such issues it was the abusers the victims, the bishops and perhaps the parents who made settlements with the Church at the time. These parents are not without blame either for hiding guilty priest.

As for the other allegations you have heard, I dont even know what youre talking about. Ive never heard such things before.

Dont forget we live in an country that has at least on remaining prejudice and bigotry and thats anti Catholicsim. While the abuse crisis was bad enough, the Church’s enemies are working hard to portray EVERYTHING about the Church as evil to discredit Her so they can carry out a very anti Christian, anti Catholic agenda. People want Christianity to die and even more so the Catholic Church. Look at how homosexual lobby tries to portray the Church as hateful and evil simply because we dare to speak the truth about human sexuality and family life. They call the Church misogynistic simply because we dont have female priests, but no one says anything about the fact for the most part women cannot become a Freemason, or Baptist Minister (which is the largest non Catholic denomination), an NFL football player! The enemies of the Church blindly perpetuate lies and myths about past evils of the Church, such as the Inquisition, the Crusades, the Galileo affair, and even Hitler sympathies. Was the Church completely innocent in all these cases. Of course not, but the truth is not nearly close to what the Church enemies try to claim - they are either simply ignorant or guilty of lies and slander.

If any Catholic tells you how awful the Church is, be compassionate about their experience, but you cannot accept such complaints without accepting the reality that people who actually practice their faith (go to Mass weekly and have a living relationship with Jesus Christ) are good, valuable members of society, and add to their community, contribute more to the educational, healthcare, and charitable systems than any other private institution on the planet. We are not perfect, but on balance the members of the Church of Jesus Christ are NOT awful. And anyone who says so is simply ignorant, biased or too cowardly to stand up to the lies and misinformation the culture throws at us!

Be firm, confident and most important faithful! The gaits of hell will not prevail!
 
robert_chacon said:
Dont forget we live in an country that has at least on remaining prejudice and bigotry and thats anti Catholicsim. While the abuse crisis was bad enough, the Church’s enemies are working hard to portray EVERYTHING about the Church as evil to discredit Her so they can carry out a very anti Christian, anti Catholic agenda. People want Christianity to die and even more so the Catholic Church. Look at how homosexual lobby tries to portray the Church as hateful and evil simply because we dare to speak the truth about human sexuality and family life. They call the Church misogynistic simply because we dont have female priests, but no one says anything about the fact for the most part women cannot become a Freemason, or Baptist Minister (which is the largest non Catholic denomination), an NFL football player! The enemies of the Church blindly perpetuate lies and myths about past evils of the Church, such as the Inquisition, the Crusades, the Galileo affair, and even Hitler sympathies. Was the Church completely innocent in all these cases. Of course not, but the truth is not nearly close to what the Church enemies try to claim - they are either simply ignorant or guilty of lies and slander.
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For whatever reason (I am really batting a thousand today!), my emoticons are not working here. I wanted to give you a thumbs up for the above. So…

thumbs up! 🙂
 
If the President of the United States were to commit adultery, that wouldn’t invalidate the Constitution and Bill of Rights.
 
A Lexus is no less a Lexus because it is occasionally seen to be driven by a rascal.

(I’ve been waiting for weeks for an opportunity to say that 😃 )
 
I’m 61 and grew up in a very catholic, very loving environment. I don’t know if that’s because I lived in a tight knit italian community in Toronto, as the city was changing from predominantly protestant, to catholic. But our parish priest, who was also a recent italian immigrant, was a caring, strong individual with a solid faith. My friends and I spent most of our teens helping out at church and practically lived in the rectory until our mid twenties, when most of us got married. There was no negativity, let alone abuse. I am still a practicing catholic because of the teachings of my parents and our parish priest. We were never scared with the wrath of god, we were motivated by being reminded of the love Jesus had for us. As children we were brought up with a devotion to baby Jesus, our virgin mother and our guardian angels. Many a time, I refrained from doing the wrong thing because I was so convinced all three would be rend into tears over my bad deeds. Let me tell you, as a child the knowledge of being loved was a very great motivator to be good.
The church described to you by older people was obviously a reality for them, but it is totally foreign to my friends and I. The church is a large institution and it contains a great variety of people, so I don’t think any one person’s experience can sum it up. Hopefully, my (name removed by moderator)ut has given you another perspective.
 
To accuse The Church of anything rather than the perpetrators of evil who wear Her vestments is the kind of shallow and erroneus thinking that Her detractors employ to attack Her.

Intelligence really is useful, no?

Judas Iscariot’s betrayal hardly invalidated the Good News, now, did it!
 
I too was heartbroken and more angry than anything else,I used the church scandals as an excuse to distance myself even more than I already was.When I returned after my own issues regarding my anger against the church (my disabled son was treated like a curse, enough said) I returned to the church and my son was baptized after 30 yrs by a loving giving priest.
after some time I wanted to involve myself in the church by offering my skills as a retired founding executive director I sought grants for church projects,developed a plan to address the advocacy issues of pro-life,donated furniture,a bookbinding system for the catechism, a project development plan for leadership trainings,etc. etc…one day i bought a Relic Bible to donate to the church a bible from 1854,I asked my priest to accept this and display it in a case to do a press release for parishioners to see this beautiful relic …he turned me away.
I was’nt surprised at this,he had been turning me away the whole time, every offer of my volunteership was denied to me.no matter how i tried … even the relic.The reason I was discouraged by my priest was that I am an activist and thru our discussions he knows my history of advocacy regarding projects of abuse,statewide and positions of proetction and advocacy and of course whistle blowing .My priest was scarred by the church scandals and is hesitant to accept help from me because he fears what i represent. I love my the catholic church because It is the house of my Lord Jesus Christ it is he who I follow and it is he who i wait for.The priests who abused and those involved were doing the works of satan,and as long as we accept that fact we wil be firm against and opposed to rechanting and refueling satans desires by recalling and encouraging evil gossip, let us pray for all the priests who are good and suffering the repurcussions of satans wrath.
As for me I am now looking for a new church to vlounteer in:shrug:
 
I too was heartbroken and more angry than anything else,I used the church scandals as an excuse to distance myself even more than I already was.When I returned after my own issues regarding my anger against the church (my disabled son was treated like a curse, enough said) I returned to the church and my son was baptized after 30 yrs by a loving giving priest.
after some time I wanted to involve myself in the church by offering my skills as a retired founding executive director I sought grants for church projects,developed a plan to address the advocacy issues of pro-life,donated furniture,a bookbinding system for the catechism, a project development plan for leadership trainings,etc. etc…one day i bought a Relic Bible to donate to the church a bible from 1854,I asked my priest to accept this and display it in a case to do a press release for parishioners to see this beautiful relic …he turned me away.
I was’nt surprised at this,he had been turning me away the whole time, every offer of my volunteership was denied to me.no matter how i tried … even the relic.The reason I was discouraged by my priest was that I am an activist and thru our discussions he knows my history of advocacy regarding projects of abuse,statewide and positions of proetction and advocacy and of course whistle blowing .My priest was scarred by the church scandals and is hesitant to accept help from me because he fears what i represent. I love my the catholic church because It is the house of my Lord Jesus Christ it is he who I follow and it is he who i wait for.The priests who abused and those involved were doing the works of satan,and as long as we accept that fact we wil be firm against and opposed to rechanting and refueling satans desires by recalling and encouraging evil gossip, let us pray for all the priests who are good and suffering the repurcussions of satan.
As for me I am now looking for a new church to vlounteer in:shrug:
 
Stonewalling and secrecy, silence, etc., have been and continue to be the norm in my diocese also. Seems the more earnest and ortodox your devotion and generosity, the more the pastors seem to feel threatened and do exactly the opposite of what is needed and to decline help, advice, or pleas to remedy abuses. .

My list I have is too long and bitter than is appropriate for this forum. For the last ten years, each new pastor - in a turnover of about 15 priests and assistants - has announced that if anyone has any complaints of any kind, that person will be cut off from any audience. Tha arrogance and protectionism I have experienced has my neck hair standing on end.

“Shut up and take your seat” says it as well as anything.

Sins of omission seem to be a hallmark of the heirarchy of the church since V II. And it ain’t getting any better, despite apparency of piety.
 
George14 said:
Stonewalling and secrecy, silence, etc., have been and continue to be the norm in my diocese also. Seems the more earnest and ortodox your devotion and generosity, the more the pastors seem to feel threatened and do exactly the opposite of what is needed and to decline help, advice, or pleas to remedy abuses. .

My list I have is too long and bitter than is appropriate for this forum. For the last ten years, each new pastor - in a turnover of about 15 priests and assistants - has announced that if anyone has any complaints of any kind, that person will be cut off from any audience. Tha arrogance and protectionism I have experienced has my neck hair standing on end.

“Shut up and take your seat” says it as well as anything.

Sins of omission seem to be a hallmark of the heirarchy of the church since V II. And it ain’t getting any better, despite apparency of piety.
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I don’t know what parish you are a member of but It is difficult to understand exactly what you are trying to say especially when you say that help has been declined for pleas to remedy abuses. I don’t know of any Archdiocese today that does not have a strict policy in place regarding what to do in the case of sexual abuse. No one can even volunteer in the parish without going through training and having a background check.
 
The issues we have are other than sexual abuse. They have to do with contempt for ’ the folks,’ ignoring legitimate concerns, and for the mission of the Church to be competent and substantive in teaching the faith. Things are going backwards. Omission of things needing to be preached is perhaps the most serious. Dead silence re sin, judgement, issues of moral significance. Feel good has replaced content.

Efforts to improve the catechesis, the office of Readers, liturgical details, fiscal management, are met with a do nothing response. Might as well talk to the wall.

Very painful, and it is not easy to make a confession to a priest whom you perceive him as part of the problem. Of course and in fairness and gratitude they are Very Good in the confessional, but that doesn’t cancel out the omissions that go on without remedy.

So the response of the parish can be quantified to make my point. About 30% of the members attend weekly mass, 2% or so go to daily mass, and the collections reach about $2 wk per parish member. That’s about a third of what is taken in in another parish nearby where the pastor listens to, welcomes, and uses the professional skills and (name removed by moderator)ut of its membership.

In my 80 years, I have never been so taxed to bite my tongue and suffer such a disapponting church experience as I do now.
 
George14 said:
The issues we have are other than sexual abuse. They have to do with contempt for ’ the folks,’ ignoring legitimate concerns, and for the mission of the Church to be competent and substantive in teaching the faith. Things are going backwards. Omission of things needing to be preached is perhaps the most serious. Dead silence re sin, judgement, issues of moral significance. Feel good has replaced content.

Efforts to improve the catechesis, the office of Readers, liturgical details, fiscal management, are met with a do nothing response. Might as well talk to the wall.

Very painful, and it is not easy to make a confession to a priest whom you perceive him as part of the problem. Of course and in fairness and gratitude they are Very Good in the confessional, but that doesn’t cancel out the omissions that go on without remedy.

So the response of the parish can be quantified to make my point. About 30% of the members attend weekly mass, 2% or so go to daily mass, and the collections reach about $2 wk per parish member. That’s about a third of what is taken in in another parish nearby where the pastor listens to, welcomes, and uses the professional skills and (name removed by moderator)ut of its membership.

In my 80 years, I have never been so taxed to bite my tongue and suffer such a disapponting church experience as I do now.
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It is not easy putting up with such things but we do it because we do not want to abandon Jesus along with the rest of the crowd. We should love and adore Him even in places where He is forgotten. I’ve seen a complete turn-a-round in our parish over the years and I believe that the devotion to Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament and devotion to our Blessed Mother among the few was important in bringing about that change. But I am aware that there are still many parishes such as you have described. Hang in there +
 
There is a good reason for my question. My current diocese is continuing the same run around of secrecy with the sex abuse scandals, and I don’t think this kind of attitude is helping the Church in any way. I wonder, WHY? Why is it necessary to continue this kind of structure? I don’t understand how continuing the cycle of secrecy and stonewalling are going to help Catholics see their Church differently.

I know that the sex abuse scandals don’t render the Church infallible or negate its teachings. Yet, I am left wondering why there is such a generational divide. I continue to meet people in the older generations who always talk about being Catholic as this guilt-ridden experience, or restrictive.
 
I’m in my 50s and grew up in the Church during the time you referenced. Individual members of the Church (not the Church itself) did some things that weren’t good.

I won’t cut and paste the whole thing, but here is a recent thread were I mention some of the historical and contextual issues that have to be recognized in understanding why the abuse scandal occurred. Humans, even bishops, sometimes make bad decison based on bad advice and insufficient information, as well as bad moral choices:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=11362782#post11362782

That being said, I didn’t have a bad experience at all. The religious sisters who raised me were strict, but gave me a good education. I sometimes think older Catholics compete to embellish their memories to describe all the “awful” treatment they received at the hands of nuns (who were probably not nuns, but religious sisters), and overlook the fact that some level of corporal punishment was pretty common in public grade schools at the time, too. No one I knew was sexually abused. The Franciscans at our parish were good men. There were things that, looking back, were probably not to my personal taste in those post-Vatican II years (a regrettable tendency towards folk music at Masses, cheesy felt banners around the altar, and the end of the Latin Mass at our parish). Catechesis probably could have been better, but there was a lot of confusion on emphasis in religious education in those years. I suspect that, much like college, if you truly want a in-depth education in any subject, you can receive it if you seek it out. My failure to do so at the time was my own fault.

That being said, the Church was the single greatest positive formative factor in whom I became. When I look back at all the mistakes and regrettable decisions i made later in life, they were in contradiction to what I was taught, and to the eternal truths of the Catholic faith. The fact that I recognized those errors on my part was due to what the Church taught me, and the Grace of God.

As the author Evelyn Waugh, a notoriously cranky man, said when a woman at a dinner party asked him how he he could be so obnoxious if he was a Catholic, “Madame, if it wasn’t for the Faith, I would scarcely be human.” That’s a sentiment I understand.
 
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