Was the Cross really so bad for Jesus?

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Very interesting but Jesus’ hands not wrists were nailed.
The Scriptural word for hand often includes the wrist, or sometimes the forearm or upper limb as a whole.

The Prophet Jeremiah was released from chains on his “hands”, as was Saint Peter in the Acts of the Apostles, although in both instances the chains would have been around the wrists or arms.

ICXC NIKA
 
The Scriptural word for hand often includes the wrist, or sometimes the forearm or upper limb as a whole.

The Prophet Jeremiah was released from chains on his “hands”, as was Saint Peter in the Acts of the Apostles, although in both instances the chains would have been around the wrists or arms.

ICXC NIKA
Exactly. Rebekah wore her bracelets on her ‘hands’, Samson was fettered in his ‘hands’. Heck even today we sometimes still refer to those restraining devices we put on people who are arrested ‘handcuffs’. I could go on. 😛
 
I’ll speak about the pain of crucifixion. It was the worst possible way to die. Here is a little about what the body goes through while on the cross, in fact here is the whole procedure:
Sorry for sounding smart-alecky here, but I’ll let you in a little secret. Much of what we supposedly ‘know’ about crucifixion is actually 90-95% conjecture.

Do you know the only thing we know most likely happened across different crucifixions, the one, single thing the various ancient accounts of crucifixion agree on? It’s that the person to be crucified was beaten or whipped first. That’s it, really. And they don’t even tell you the severity of this beating; the common ‘the person to be crucified would look like raw hamburger’ analogy is actually more based on both the Shroud of Turin (which itself is already a rather shaky piece of artifact to make definitive claims on) and a mish-mash of ancient texts describing scourgings, including which were not a prelude to crucifixion!

Everything else varied with the occasion and the whim of the executioners: so in some crucifixions, the victim apparently did not carry a patibulum (the crossbeam?); rather, the cross was already carried or set up in the place where he’d be hanged beforehand, and all the executioners had to do was to drag him there and put him up on it. We know that Jesus was nailed at least in His ‘hands’, and that the 1st-century crucifixion victim with the name of Yehohanan was nailed in his ankles, but it would seem that other crucified victims were just tied to their crosses. So even there you had variation.

There wasn’t even a set place for crucifixions: in some places, it would seem like people were crucified on especially-designated execution areas, but in others, they were crucified on the roadsides or even at the place where they were caught perpetrating the crime. The only thing consistent is that it should be a public area - basically where anyone can see the person hanging.

In fact, it was not the physical pain that made crucifixion horrible - it was more the shame. That’s why scourging was the (only) constant element of crucifixion: it wasn’t simply done to physically weaken the victim, it was also done to symbolically emasculate and shame him - to ‘depersonalize’ him, to make him ‘not human’. (From the ancient POV, ‘real’ human beings - real free men - are not crucified; only ‘subhumans’ are.) And it did not just shame the person hanging up on the cross, but also everyone associated with him. His family, his friends, his associates are also guilty by association.

It was not simply the physical torture of crucifixion, then, that made this death so despised. Rather, the public humiliation that went along with it made it all the more loathsome. Crucifixion played upon widely held ideals of masculinity. In the ancient context of Mark’s Gospel, it was thought appropriate and necessary or adult males to demonstrate prowess. Demonstrations of prowess could take any number of forms, such as the conferral of benefits; teaching, rhetoric, the writing of poetry; military victory; or avenging some type of insult or injury. Overly reserved men gave the appearance of being effeminate. … T]o be rendered unable to demonstrate prowess, to be made powerless, was shameful for a man. To be beaten, to be unable to repulse an attacker, was degrading because it was the inverse of the masculine ideal. …] Crucifixion, a very public act of brutal physical abuse, represented the loss of prowess and power in the extreme.

Status had a direct bearing on the likelihood that one might die by crucifixion. It was a punishment for the lower classes, a fact that increased its power to degrade. …] Among the upper classes …] the cross was an obscenity, best not to be spoken of in polite company. For the lower classes, it was a very real threat and a shocking manifestation of the violence that could be inflicted when the more powerful members of society felt threatened by their social subordinates.

Joel Marcus discusses crucifixion as a death that was generally reserved for people who had “gotten above themselves.” Slaves who revolted against their masters or people who engaged in rebellion against the government would be good candidates for this punishment. Irony, Marcus argues, was the very intention of such a death: “this strangely ‘exalting’ mode of execution was designed to mimic, parody, and puncture the pretensions of insubordinate transgressors by displaying a deliberately horrible mirror of their self-elevation.” The “elevation” of crucifixion, the “enthronement” upon the cross, was a way of mocking those who had acted above their proper social station.

The deterrent force of the cross also relied upon the group-oriented personality of the ancient world. People were embedded in groups, which consisted not just of families, but friends, patron-client relationships, and other types of voluntary associations such as collegia, religious groups, or philosophical groups. …] Certain people were more important for a group’s collective honor than others. For example, the father was the most visible representative of a family’s honor. …] Crucifying the head of a group, then, would bring considerable shame on all the members of the group. The cross did not simply punish one person, but shamed all people associated with that person. It could serve as a group punishment inflicted upon a visible member of that group.
  • David F. Watson’s Honor Among Christians: The Cultural Key to the Messianic Secret (pp.69-71)
 
Do you know the only thing we know most likely happened across different crucifixions, the one, single thing the various ancient accounts of crucifixion agree on? It’s that the person to be crucified was beaten or whipped first. That’s it, really. And they don’t even tell you the severity of this beating; the common ‘the person to be crucified would look like raw hamburger’ analogy is actually more based on both the Shroud of Turin (which itself is already a rather shaky piece of artifact to make definitive claims on) and a mish-mash of ancient texts describing scourgings, including which were not a prelude to crucifixion!
Just to elaborate on this last post.

The one thing that was consistent across crucifixions was the beating or the scourging of the victim, but even there there seems to be no definite rule as to how the person is to be beaten or where he is to be beaten. (In other words, it was left to the whim of the executioners, just as the other elements are.) The only thing certain is that it was done before the person is put up on the cross, and that it must have been public. There was once a slave punished in the Roman Forum who was whipped while carrying this beam of wood (the patibulum - the horizontal crossbeam?)

“Those who led the slave to the punishment, having stretched out both his arms and tied them to a [beam of] wood, which extended across his chest and shoulders as far as the wrist, were following him lacerating his naked body with whips.”

Some texts do refer to whips used for the flogging, but we can’t be sure whips were always used; in the case of Jesus, some have even interpreted the beating with a ‘reed’ or a stick He received when He was crowned with thorns (“And they were striking his head with a reed and spitting on him…”) to be the ‘scourging’, as opposed to it being a further beating after the scourging proper (which is the usual interpretation).

Most texts (including the gospels) are actually silent about the severity of this beating: the only thing that comes close would be Seneca’s reference to “Can anyone be found who would prefer to be driven to that infelix lignum (‘unfortunate wood’), already disabled, already distorted, the breast and shoulder deformed into an ugly hump, he would have many reasons to die even beside the crux, than to draw the breath of life among such numbers of outdrawn torments.” So we know the beating can get nasty. But we really have little solid proof from the ancient texts for the often-repeated line about the crucifixion victim looking like ‘raw hamburger meat’ (y’know, The Passion of the Christ-style gore). I personally know of only one case that comes close (I’m sure there are a few other texts I don’t know - I’ll have to look it up), and it’s not even a pre-crucifixion scourging.

The Jewish historian Josephus talks about a man named Jesus son of Ananias/Ananus who in the 60s kept prophesying about the destruction of Jerusalem. The “leading citizens” were disturbed with his words and beat him, but to no avail. He was then brought before the Roman governor, who had him whipped some more, but still he kept prophesying. Exasperated, the authorities took him for a madman and set him free. This Jesus finally died when his predictions came true in 70 - he was hit by a stone hurled from a Roman catapult. Josephus does mention that during the Roman scourging, Jesus son of Ananias was “flayed to the bone with scourges.” (It could be literal, but it could also be hyperbole.) But the problem is, this Jesus was not crucified. This scourging was a stand-alone punishment (to shut him up), not a prelude to crucifixion.

Yes, scourgings can be fatal, but the Roman wouldn’t have wanted people to die under the beatings before they can even put them up on the cross. So it must not have been too severe - at least, not Mel Gibson-style severe. 😉 And in any case, pre-crucifixion scourgings were apparently done more for symbolic reasons: as mentioned in the quote in the last post, “[T]o be rendered unable to demonstrate prowess, to be made powerless, was shameful for a man. To be beaten, to be unable to repulse an attacker, was degrading because it was the inverse of the masculine ideal.” Remember that this was an honor-shame culture: to be ‘shamed’ was worse than death. The scourging was a symbolic ritual. It wasn’t just done because the Romans were sadists and wanted to draw out some blood or maybe even to weaken the victim (that was more of a side effect than the main purpose). It was performed to ritually emasculate and dehumanize the victim in public. Real free men (= Roman citizens) are not whipped nor crucified; that was only for non-citizens, slaves, non-humans.

Think about this: Jesus’ scourging and crucifixion ‘degraded’ Him and made Him a social nonperson.
 
Exactly. Rebekah wore her bracelets on her ‘hands’, Samson was fettered in his ‘hands’. Heck even today we sometimes still refer to those restraining devices we put on people who are arrested ‘handcuffs’. I could go on. 😛
Yep, and if someone’s “hands are bound,” the rope is around the wrists, forearms, or even elbows.

ICXC NIKA
 
As to shame, the cross, and Roman citizens.

In the first-century BC, someone was caught in a political conspiracy at Rome; condemned to the cross, he claimed that he should not be shamed this way as he was a citizen.

The Emperor’s response was to hang him on a specially high cross.

ICXC NIKA
 
Was the Cross really so bad for Jesus?.
Well, He had a body exactly the same as yours. I wouldn’t suggest that you go through everything He endured out of love for us, that would kill you. Just take a nail and hammer it through only one of your feet into a board. When you have done this and thought in detail about all the other things that He suffered for us, please give us a detailed account of how that one nail felt.
 
As to shame, the cross, and Roman citizens.

In the first-century BC, someone was caught in a political conspiracy at Rome; condemned to the cross, he claimed that he should not be shamed this way as he was a citizen.

The Emperor’s response was to hang him on a specially high cross.

ICXC NIKA
That was Galba, one of the three men who succeeded Nero (late 60s AD). He had the guy crucified because the latter poisoned his ward; when the person protested that he was a citizen, Galba - “pretending to lighten his punishment by some consolation and honor” - had him recrucified on a cross “taller than the rest” painted white.

Suetonius (the author who reports this) writes about this incident to emphasize just how Galba was “at first” (this was before he became emperor, I should add) “… vigorous and energetic and even over severe in punishing offences” and how he later “changed to sloth and inaction.” (The original audience would realize just how too severe Galba originally was, because he crucified a Roman citizen for doing a crime!) Immediately before reporting this incident Suetonius even told how Galba had cut off the hands of a dishonest money-lender and had the hands nailed onto the counter - as a warning, I guess.

Speaking of which, in ancient Rome you could apparently arrange for a private crucifixion. If you had a wayward slave you wanted punished (essentially, put to death), you could contact a contractor and, for a fee, have him hung up on a cross. In what is now modern Pozzuoli they found this marble plate containing legal rules for contractors. This is what one part of it says:

"Whoever will want to exact punishment on a male slave at private expense, as he [the owner] who wants the [punishment] to be inflicted, he [the contractor] exacts the punishment in this manner: if he wants [him] to bring the patibulum to the cross (in cruc[em] patibul[um] agere), the contractor will have to provide wooden posts, chains, and chords for the floggers and the floggers themselves. And anyone who will want to exact punishment will have to give four sesterces for each of the workers who bring the patibulum and for the floggers and also for the executioner.

“Whenever a magistrate exacts punishment at public expense, so shall he decree; and whenever it will have been ordered to be ready to carry out the punishment, the contractor will have gratis to set up stakes (cruces), and will have gratis to provide nails, pitch, wax, candles, and those things which are essential for such matters. Also if he will be commanded to drag [the cadaver] out with a hook, he must drag the cadaver itself out, his workers dressed in red, with a bell ringing, to a place where many cadavers will be.”
 
I often also wish God would appear and speak loudly from the sky, to change this modern age. So people would hear it, and witness it, and not mistake it. And to give us a stronger Faith, for those of us who have trouble with that. Like what happened in many instances in the Bible
Jesus said that if people wouldn’t listen to the Law and the Prophets, they wouldn’t listen to someone who rose from the dead. Now if they wouldn’t listen to someone who rose from the dead, how much less if God Himself came down and spoke to us? He already did that once.
 
Our Lord knew that there would be know dulling of pain. To rid the world of original sin he took the suffering of Mankind. In the agony in the garden the Lord had been made aware of what was to happen. He asked the Father to take the cup away, he knew there would be know pain killer. He knew the sorrow his Mother would endure, and yet he still did this for us.

It hurts us to think of this pain and suffering which began long before the last nail had been hammered in. Yes he also knew that he would ascend, but that did little to soften the blows of the whip, or the thorns driving into his head.

I went to an Easter program some close Baptist friends invited me to. A very talented artist used sand to “pour out” pictures as the story of the Lord’s sacrifice was being told. When the artist poured out the nails, it was just too much to take and I burst into tears.

I had also just been laid off from my dream job at the time, and was also in great physical pain, but it took two days to find out that it was pancreatitus. I spent a month in bed in unimaginable pain, watching the clock tick slowly towards the moment I would be able to take another pain killer which only dulled the pain for three of the six hours I was allowed to take it in. A relative staying with me had to sleep downstairs, as he could not sleep with me groaning away in the next room.

This was to last a month as the hospital misjudged the severity of my case and gave me some really bad advice. I should have been in the hospital, but that isn’t the point. I was to go through all types of pain for the next few years that would finally propel me to the blessings and mercy of our Lord and the Catholic Church.

You see sometimes, we too have our “own” crosses to bear. Sometimes it is we who have to suffer, maybe not as much as our Lord did, but enough. It takes what it takes. It was and still is, an incredible journey.

I hope this helps.
 
I often also wish God would appear and speak loudly from the sky, to change this modern age. So people would hear it, and witness it, and not mistake it. And to give us a stronger Faith, for those of us who have trouble with that. Like what happened in many instances in the Bible
I sometimes wonder why I should believe Christianity is any more correct than any other religion passed down through the centuries? I guess that is too deep and involved a subject to get answered here. .
God has done some amazing and incontrovertible things throughout history. Are you familiar with the miracle of Lanciano? And the many other Eucharistic miracles? One happened in our church a year ago, and is under investigation now.
Do you know about the incorruptibles? About Juan Diego’s tilma, which you can see in Mexico city, and the photographic images captured in the miniscule slits of the Virgin’s eyes?
All those things would be enough to convince me, but what is most convincing is that so many people died martyrs’ deaths soon after the Resurrection. All the disciples except John were killed for their faith, Why would they do that if they were lying about what they had seen? Why would so many Christians have died if it were all a fantasy?
I have seen and heard things myself, but won’t mention them because I have no proof, and maybe was hallucinating. But I’m convinced.
 
The point is, was Jesus able to ease His own pain through the process being that He is God?
Why go through that charade? Being God, he could just willed all his tormentors out of existence. But he didn’t, and he is not a fake. Our sins are real.
I think to myself…“Jesus was indeed God, and knew he was God, and knew he would be resurrected, so why do we think this was so bad for him? Maybe, being God, he willed it to not really hurt inside, but only gave it the appearance of suffering? God can do anything, no? In fact, why was it even necessary to cleanse humanity’s sin through the Cross? Couldn’t God just cleanse it with a thought?”
He is God and he made himself to the lowest of all. The suffering, the shame, the humiliation, letting your own mother witnessing his pain and shame while innocent. If you can imagine some earthly person of some importance going through that, you must think how bad it must be for that person. Now change that person to God, our creator, the supreme person, being treated like that. How can that not be bad? It is not the being dead that was bad, it was the process of getting there. Even with the knowledge that you will come back to life again does not remove that pain suffered, shame, pain on your loved ones caused etc.
I can think of other horrible executions, sadly. What if He had been beheaded, or burned alive, as ISIS is doing now to so many Christians? Resurrection from that would seem to be even more amazing to witnesses!
And none will be less shameful than be crucified.
I don’t know why I think about this? I think we are just supposed to not question the Cross, and that it is considered taboo to do so.
According to ?
I often also wish God would appear and speak loudly from the sky, to change this modern age. So people would hear it, and witness it, and not mistake it. And to give us a stronger Faith, for those of us who have trouble with that. Like what happened in many instances in the Bible
That would have remove all pretense of availability of freewill for mankind. Or that will send the whole scientific community into a frenzy figuring out how our potential enemies have manged to surpass our technology to be able to do that invisibly. Audio projection is no big deal actually. Holograms are coming along soon or already here I think. Just small ones.
I sometimes wonder why I should believe Christianity is any more correct than any other religion passed down through the centuries? I guess that is too deep and involved a subject to get answered here.
Because it is true. Which other religion do you think is superior? No other has divine origins.
 
Ive thought about this topic before and dont know what to think about it…Im sure Jesus suffered very much on that day, Im not debating that at all, it was terrible, however it was only one day, and then he was dead, plus Jesus KNEW what was going to happen when he died, unlike us…when you look at the length of time, the extended brutality of the Jews in the concentration camps, and many other events where people suffered MUCH longer and MUCH worse than Jesus did, it does sort of make you think.
 
Ive thought about this topic before and dont know what to think about it…Im sure Jesus suffered very much on that day, Im not debating that at all, it was terrible, however it was only one day, and then he was dead, plus Jesus KNEW what was going to happen when he died, unlike us…when you look at the length of time, the extended brutality of the Jews in the concentration camps, and many other events where people suffered MUCH longer and MUCH worse than Jesus did, it does sort of make you think.
The biggest issue for me is that His death didn’t “take”, unlike everybody else’s.
 
Re: He knew what was going to happen.

Say I’m the world’s greatest surgeon, and I’m really awesome at reattaching people’s severed hands so that it’s like they were never amputated at all.

Say that the local government has condemned you of a crime, and the punishment is to have your hand cut off and then reattached.

So I call your house to tell you that I’m going to come and cut off your hand, and then reattach it. I tell you all about how great that surgery will be.

Does that make you happy to have me whack your hand off, even if you know it will work perfectly afterward?

Does that make it less scary to have your hand whacked off? Would you happily count the hours until I come over with my saw? Or would you dread it more, the more you knew about it?

It’s not the outcome that’s scary! It’s the experience of what happens first!
 
Re: He knew what was going to happen.

Say I’m the world’s greatest surgeon, and I’m really awesome at reattaching people’s severed hands so that it’s like they were never amputated at all.

Say that the local government has condemned you of a crime, and the punishment is to have your hand cut off and then reattached.

So I call your house to tell you that I’m going to come and cut off your hand, and then reattach it. I tell you all about how great that surgery will be.

Does that make you happy to have me whack your hand off, even if you know it will work perfectly afterward?

Does that make it less scary to have your hand whacked off? Would you happily count the hours until I come over with my saw? Or would you dread it more, the more you knew about it?

It’s not the outcome that’s scary! It’s the experience of what happens first!
Not in my opinion, although I see where you are coming from, Personally I can say NOT knowing is much more scary, not to mention, not knowing what happens after we die, no human knows that, many are extremely frightened of what happens in the ‘transition’, Jesus KNEW exactly what was coming, he KNEW he going from (pardon the analogy) rags to riches in a matter of seconds.
 
Yes I see your point. I guess it also works the other way as well.

Coming from the safety and peace of Heaven where you rule, to the daily sufferings, limitations and imperfections of the world where you and your loved ones are at the mercy of the brutality of ignorant men would have been quite scary.
 
Death is certain to be brutally uncomfortable, as a bare minimum, agonizing, more likely.

But I **think **I could face it positively if I knew that I would be physically awakened three days later.

IMNAAHO!!

ICXC NIKA.
 
Death is certain to be brutally uncomfortable, as a bare minimum, agonizing, more likely.

But I **think **I could face it positively if I knew that I would be physically awakened three days later.

IMNAAHO!!

ICXC NIKA.
Hence the martyrs of the early Church and then down through the ages I guess?
 
That would have remove all pretense of availability of freewill for mankind. Or that will send the whole scientific community into a frenzy figuring out how our potential enemies have manged to surpass our technology to be able to do that invisibly. Audio projection is no big deal actually. Holograms are coming along soon or already here I think. Just small ones.

.
Yes, but God did alot of this kind of thing back in biblical days, didnt seem to negatively effect them or their free will…??

Plus, with holograms, God could appear in such a way that everyone would just know it was real, no possible way it could be anything else, atheists would have no choice but to agree, interestingly the US did look into somehow projecting the image of allah in the skies above battlefields, I think they even have a way to make it seem like allah or some higher being is talking directly to another person, but if God were to do something like this, It would be in such a great manner, no one would suggest it was fake.
 
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