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Paris_Blues
Guest
YIKES!!! If that’s the case, no wonder why non-Catholics reject Mary and the Saints!!
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LatinCat
Guest
The protestant in this case of course. But it is not because of his protestantism but in spite of it.
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Sherlock
Guest
Not true. There were English translations of the Bible (or at least English translations of parts of the Bible) well before “those days”. The Bible (or parts of it) had been translated into several vernacular languages long before the “reformation”. It is a convenient Protestant myth that people were put to death for translating the Bible into vernacular languages. In the cases that are usually cited, there is far, far more to the story than a mere desire to translate into English. Don’t fall for the myth.
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herry
Guest
Protestant Deformation? The work of the devil?
Folks, if you could rewind 800 or so years, and see someone being burned before your eyes twisting and writhing in agony because he rejected Mary after he read “There is one God, and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus” 1 Tim 2:5 You would all become protestants.
The Protestant Reformation was a return to Apostolic Christianity, minus the observance of the Sabbath.
“And we too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by our selves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by faith through which Almighty God, from the beginning has justified all men, to whom be the glory for ever and ever, Amen” Clement I, (the 4th bishop of Rome). 1st Epistle to Corinthians
“I marvel that some (referring to the bishop of Rome, Stephen) have the daring temerity to write to me as if they name of the church, since the Church is established in all bishops, all the clegy, and all who stand firm in the faith” -St. Cyprian (saying Christ’s charge to Peter refers all episcopate and all the faithful) Epistle XXVI
Folks, if you could rewind 800 or so years, and see someone being burned before your eyes twisting and writhing in agony because he rejected Mary after he read “There is one God, and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus” 1 Tim 2:5 You would all become protestants.
The Protestant Reformation was a return to Apostolic Christianity, minus the observance of the Sabbath.
“And we too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by our selves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by faith through which Almighty God, from the beginning has justified all men, to whom be the glory for ever and ever, Amen” Clement I, (the 4th bishop of Rome). 1st Epistle to Corinthians
“I marvel that some (referring to the bishop of Rome, Stephen) have the daring temerity to write to me as if they name of the church, since the Church is established in all bishops, all the clegy, and all who stand firm in the faith” -St. Cyprian (saying Christ’s charge to Peter refers all episcopate and all the faithful) Epistle XXVI
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Paris_Blues
Guest
I know that we all have a free will. I meant was, did the devil tempt Luther sooo much to being scrupulous and all that garbage that Luther was soo convinced by it that he just HAD to DO SOMETHING about it.
Therefore, yes, like when the serpent tempted Eve, she fell for it, therefore in this case, Luther fell for it?
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Mickey
Guest
Those were tumultuous times with killings on all fronts.
What is your reasoning behind this statement?
herry said:
A wonderful quote. What is your point?
herry said:
St Cyprian was/is a very holy saint. He was quite orthodox. If you are trying to prove that Cyprian did not believe in the primacy of Rome, then you should start another thread. However, this quote also refers to the Church being established in all the bishops and clergy. It is not a protestant affirmation.
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Paris_Blues
Guest
We would NOT become Protestants for that! Catholics DO believe that there is only ONE mediator between God and man and that’s Jesus Christ. Heck, me being a former Protestant LEFT Protestantism because I was looking for the FULLNESS OF TRUTH and I wasn’t finding it in non-Catholic religions or other denominations. After reading some history of Martin Luther and the CC plus with the help and grace of the Holy Spirit, I decided to run to the CC because that’s the Truth I wanted to find.
If you’re saying the Protestant Reformation was a return to Apostolic Christianity, how come they ain’t doing the Traditions or whatnot?
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Montie_Claunch
Guest
But, the bible tells us that “Where two or three are gathered in my name there I am in the middle.” The reason I bring that up is that it shows someone else going to God for someone (like Mary and the other saints do) and also “First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Intercessions, or mediation. This is by the same person that wrote that christ was the one mediator. Marys, or anyone esles, prayers don’t infringe on Christs role because those prayers are going to him. The prayers hing on him.
churchofgodcarmichael.org/sabbath/sabbcontents.html
catholic.com/library/Sabbath_or_Sunday.asp will show that the jewish Sabbath is not part of the apostolic church.
herry said:
I assume you are talking about faith and works in which I will give this. Through faith we are saved but, through works does are faith mean anything “Faith without works is dead” James
herry said:
No, the Papacy is strickly Peter. Here is some more ECF which are being overlooked. catholic.com/library/Authority_of_the_Pope_Part_1.asp
catholic.com/library/Authority_of_the_Pope_Part_2.asp
In the scripture in mention “blessed art thou…You are Peter, and upon…” Jesus never changes subject to anything, just Peter (in the singular form).
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barsapp
Guest
heresy, not schism. Heresy. Luther is a heretic. Like Judas Iscariot, “after he took the morsel, Satan entered him” (John 13,27).
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barsapp
Guest
better a bad Catholic than a good Protestant.
A “good protestant”, as being protestant, must follow Luther’s teachings as a heretic.
Protestants were part of the Catholic Church: so they knew the Truth and rejected it. They subverted the True Faith and became enemies of Christ and His Church.
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Richard_Hurtz
Guest
So Protestants are not our “separated brethren” then?
Blessings,
Richard
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barsapp
Guest
That language (“separated brethren”) has to do with ecumenism, an ideology against the Holy Church.
Here we are talking about Luther as a heretic and Protestantism as a heresy, and the Devil, father of lies (John 8, 44), behind all division.
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Montie_Claunch
Guest
“Better a Bad Catholic than a Good Protestant”? What? both options such in my opinion. Neither would be “better”. One doesn’t have the fullness of truth and the other doesn’t care. I don’t see how you can see how one is better than the either. I say Better a Good Catholic than Good whatever.
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barsapp
Guest
Montie Claunch said:
it was only my answer to post #37.
“I say Better a Good Catholic than Good whatever”
of course I agree on that.
“One doesn’t have the fullness of truth” Not that simple : Protestants reject the Truth and spread heresy. They do not do the work of Christ, but the work of the Devil: division.
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
No.
But is that the sort of thing for which one could be burned ?
More generally, ISTM that if one believes that God saves by grace, no number of crimes by the Church can possibly unChurch her - not because such things are morally unimportant (they are not unimportant), but because no sin can prevail against God’s grace. Human sin, and God’s grace, are incommensurable - they cannot be measured by the same measure, because sin is utterly unreal, wheras grace is nothing but a manifestation of the Life of God Himself; than Whom nothing could be more Real. The Church’s crimes, no matter how horrible, cannot break the covenant Christ has sealed, because the Church has no other life than His. So a trillion burnings alive would be powerless to make the Church less Christian - such things witness, not to the sins of the Church, but to the dreadful wickedness of man: IOW, to the sins of man. For the Church, as the Church, is most holy, and is all fair, since she is the Bride of Christ; and is without spot or blemish - unlike us who are in the Church, who are evil, and do evil continually. And if persecutors cannot destroy the Church, neither can we. For which, God be thanked.The Church is two things - the holy and sinless Body of Christ; and, the sinful creatures who are within her. So she has a double aspect - what she is ideally, her true self; and how she is historically, as experienced. This is where a monergist approach is so helpful - it shows how the Crucifixion is simultaneously the masterpiece of human sin, and also the supreme manifestation of God’s Love: it is both these, and more. So with the Church: and so with the Gospel: which is an odour of salvation to those being saved; and the stench of death to those being lost - which is what St.Paul says
It is one thing, affecting different people differently; just as Christ did: for He was - He is - a stone of stumbling to some; but salvation to others.Which is why the sins of the Church do not disqualify her - if God were just, they would; but God is not just, He is gracious. So they do not. ##
It’s not easy to agree without many qualifications, given the diversity of types of Protestantism. That’s not an objection to it, but a difficulty in assessing its character.
Agreed - so, our sins do not disqualify us.
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Sherlock
Guest
Oh fer Pete’s sake…another Feeneyite? Look, I think Protestant theologies are flawed, sometimes very so, but not all Protestants even have a clue that it is. They were raised with it, and may have no reason to believe anything different. Their experience with lousy Catholics may have stymied any inclination they may have to look further. Some were raised with misconceptions that would cut off any inquiry: if I believed what anti-Catholics believe we Catholics believe, maybe I’d be anti-Catholic too.
Look, it’s for God to judge how culpable these people are. What we are called to do is to try and bring people to the truth, and—hint, hint—you won’t do it by calling them heretics. I’ll admit, I can get very, very testy at times on these forums when people repeatedly attack the Church, but I’m generally reacting to individuals, not Protestantism as a whole (wrong and divisive as I think their various theologies are). I know of nice, God-fearing Protestants who are confronting our secular culture, our common enemy. I would rather have these decent people on my side (as long as they aren’t anti-Catholic wackos—that’s a different matter). Calling these people heretics is NOT going to be productive. Look, the secular world (and 'way too many Muslims) would be more than happy to see Christianity dead and buried. They’re succeeding all too well at removing Christianity from our culture. We need to get together with those Protestants who are not anti-Catholic wackos and stand with them against this culture of death.
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Montie_Claunch
Guest
I agree with sherlock. Lets side with him.
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PepeRoni
Guest
Obviously Luther and the reformers were doing God’s work and destroying the instrument of the anti-Christ. Don’t you read Jack Chick comics?
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barsapp
Guest
Ok, perhaps we are talking about different things. If you want to find a “Protestant nice guy” probably you’ll succeed. There are also “nice” atheists, “nice” Muslims, “nice” Jews, etc, etc. Unfortunately this has nothing to do with theology and doctrine. If someone says that “Luther freely chose schism” (post #4) I say: Be careful: It was heresy, not schism. Because they are not the same. And here we are talking about doctrine, about dogma. And from this point of view Protestantism is a heresy, neither the first, nor the last, but nothing more than a heresy that came out within the Church with one main purpose (the purpose of all heresy): destroy the Church. Just imagine what would have happened if they had succeeded.
“but not all Protestants even have a clue that it is”
Do you considerer that “Ignorance” makes their sin of heresy less condemning? Again: if you want to find an ignorant Protestant, probably you’ll succeed, because there are lots of them. Is for this reason heresy less awful and malignant? I know the difference between formal and material heretics.
“I know of nice, God-fearing Protestants who are confronting our secular culture, our common enemy”
As Catholics we also have to study and lean a lot. Among those subjects to study is philosophy. To understand how the fruits of Protestantism are like those of the fig tree: division, liberalism, relativism, subjectivism, modernism, in the long term… atheism… So, if you want to fight against this secular world, better forget about Protestantism, because Protestantism is the main cause of this secular world. But we need the help of philosophy to understand this.
“Calling these people heretics is NOT going to be productive”.
A couple of weeks ago, “with a clear majority, the Synod (251 members) of the Church of Sweden voted to allow gay couples to have their partnership blessed in church”. Is this not heresy? Are these members of the Swedish synod “formal” or “material” heretics? Heresy leads to more heresy. Do you want to call them “separated brethren”? You are welcome.
But realize that we are talking here about doctrine, not any particular “nice next door lovely Protestant”…
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Sherlock
Guest
Agreed. Protestantism IS a heresy, and Luther was a heretic. But read your Catechism: it states that we can’t brand with the name “heretic” all those who follow Protestantism. I follow the Church, not Feeneyism, which would have us at each others throats. You’re called to bring people to the truth, with love.Ok, perhaps we are talking about different things. If you want to find a “Protestant nice guy” probably you’ll succeed. There are also “nice” atheists, “nice” Muslims, “nice” Jews, etc, etc. Unfortunately this has nothing to do with theology and doctrine.
You’re dragging in other elements and missing my point: I’m not talking about the niceness of non-Catholic individuals, I’m pointing out: 1–how NOT to evangelize non-Catholic Christians; and 2–the importance of having them on our side as we confront the secular culture (and Muslim jihadists) who wish to bury us.
barsapp:
My, you know all sorts of things—comes with the office of Pope Barsapp, does it? Knowledge of souls, that sort of thing? Anyway, I’m just as perturbed by ignorant Catholics—more so, actually. And I’m really perturbed by ignorant Catholics who set themselves up as their own Magisterium, and condemn freely from their self-made pulpits. You’ve lost your charity, my friend, and you’d better find it. I’d suggest reading your Bible to discover how best to bring people to the truth.Do you considerer that “Ignorance” makes their sin of heresy less condemning? ]
Ummmmm…yeah, don’t you? Don’t you know the conditions required for a sin to be mortal? I leave the determination of culpability to God, but we do know that “full knowledge” is one of the conditions that the Church teaches is a necessary component of serious (mortal) sin (which heresy is, of course). I see: you know more than the Magisterium! Did God give you the keys to the kingdom too? Move over, Benedict XVI…
barsapp:
difference between formal and material heretics. ]
I do understand the subject. And yes, Protestantism does produce the fruits you mention. I despise Protestantism, though I cannot despise individual Protestants—my job is to bring them to the fullness of the truth. And yes, standing with them against the culture of death is both necessary for success, and ultimately a means of leading them to the truth. It is no accident that many non-Catholics are coming to view contraception as the evil it is, precisely because they have been standing with Catholics against abortion: they’re beginning to see the link between the two. This would not have happened if Catholics refused to join ranks with them against our common enemy.
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