Was the devil part of the Deformation...I mean Reformation?

[Sherlock]

continued-

barsapp:

A couple of weeks ago, “with a clear majority, the Synod (251 members) of the Church of Sweden voted to allow gay couples to have their partnership blessed in church”. Is this not heresy? Are these members of the Swedish synod “formal” or “material” heretics? Heresy leads to more heresy. Do you want to call them “separated brethren”? You are welcome.]]

Yes, it’s heresy. But the degree of culpability will be determined by God, not you: do you know those Synod members personally? Do you know their hearts and minds? Are you omniscient?

barsapp:

But realize that we are talking here about doctrine, not any particular “nice next door lovely Protestant”…

Of course we are speaking of a doctrinal issue—big “duh” there, good buddy. But you are called to love the sinner and hate the sin, and you are also called to bring them to the fullness of truth. There have been great saints who have brought many to the truth, and they didn’t do it with your methods of despising the uninformed. I would suggest that you read the lives of the saints who were most effective in bringing souls to the truth, and you might learn something. You have lost all sense of charity, and you will be held accountable for what your lack of charity has done.

 

[NonDenom]

slewi:

Hi there!

You know, I wouldn’t doubt it for an instant. For 1500 years holy mother church stood as a beacon in the mist.

Do you honestly believe that there was no problems in th Catholic church before 1500? Do you realy think that there was no one who saw the abuses going on in the church and believed there was nothing wrong?. The reason they didn’t say anything was because they were afraid of the church.

Then Luther and those that came after him show up, and in the past 500 years more than 35,000 different denominatons

If you know that there are 35,000 different denominations then why don’t you name at least 1000 of them. I mean thats only
1/35 of them. that shouldnt be to hard.

We can look at the reformation as simply another of Satan’s tools,

Satan has used many tools to mislead people clear back to when Christ walked the earth, including leaders and members of your church.

Thanks

 

[Paris_Blues]

Nicene:

Did I not tell you earlier that a Jew is such a noble, precious jewel that God and all the angels dance when he farts?

Really? Should we be doing the same thing?

 

[Sherlock]

NonDenom:

slewi:

Hi there!
Do you honestly believe that there was no problems in th Catholic church before 1500? Do you realy think that there was no one who saw the abuses going on in the church and believed there was nothing wrong?. The reason they didn’t say anything was because they were afraid of the church.

I don’t think anyone has posited that there weren’t problems within the Catholic Church. There has always been, and always be, a need for reform, because the Church contains sinners. As for being “afraid of the Church”—there were many reformers within the Church before Luther’s time; during Luther’s time; and after Luther’s time. Many of them were quite successful, and the Church honors them (even if some of their contemporaries were less than thrilled).

[f you know that there are 35,000 different denominations then why don’t you name at least 1000 of them. I mean thats only
1/35 of them. that shouldnt be to hard…

I would suggest looking at the World Christian Encyclopedia, a Protestant reference, for starters. I think there may be census figures as well…

[Satan has used many tools to mislead people clear back to when Christ walked the earth, including leaders and members of your church.

That’s true. That’s true of Protestant leaders and members as well. It’s true of Orthodox leaders and members as well—except, of course, that Protestants are new on the block. And your point is?

[/quote]

[/quote]

 

[barsapp]

Sherlock:

You have lost all sense of charity, and you will be held accountable for what your lack of charity has done.

I really appreciate your sense of humor. That’s good. One first point here: I do not need Feeneyism to be Catholic. Second point: I’m not talking about any individual (precisely to avoid the “charge” of lack of charity). So I agree with your consideration regarding this matter.

Third: I’m not even speaking on the state of any particular soul at the moment of death. That, for example, Luther, as Satan’s tool, is in Hell is not a dogma, there is no ex cathedra pronouncement on the matter. But… we can, and must, use reason and common sense. And reason and common sense show that the enemies of Christ are condemned to Hell. It is really hard to understand how an enemy of Christ would end in Heaven… (Some of the members of the Lutheran Synod expressed that the blessing of gay couples concords with Christ’s teachings. Don’t surprise me: when you are out of the Holy Church you are totally blind, you do not, you can not, recognize Christ). An interesting idea to think about it: evangelization as contrary to ecumenism. “We can’t brand with the name “heretic” all those who follow Protestantism”: yes, we can, if you want add “formal” or “material”. What we can not do is change definitions, words, meanings. Back to the title of the thread: Was the devil part of the Reformation? “in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God” (John 16:2).

 

[barsapp]

NonDenom:

Satan has used many tools to mislead people clear back to when Christ walked the earth, including leaders and members of your church.

Does “your church” refer to the Holy Catholic Church, the one wanted and founded by Christ that expelled Luther because of heresy?

 

[Paris_Blues]

NonDenom:

slewi:

Hi there!

Do you honestly believe that there was no problems in th Catholic church before 1500? Do you realy think that there was no one who saw the abuses going on in the church and believed there was nothing wrong?. The reason they didn’t say anything was because they were afraid of the church.

DUH! We’re all sinners! Maybe it was because the devil LOVES to use fear to people so they can’t tell what’s going on. It’s like a spiritual “gag” so to speak.

NonDenom:

If you know that there are 35,000 different denominations then why don’t you name at least 1000 of them. I mean thats only
1/35 of them. that shouldnt be to hard.

If I eat a cheeseburger, maybe.

NonDenom:

Satan has used many tools to mislead people clear back to when Christ walked the earth, including leaders and members of your church.

Thanks

Yes well the devil also used the Deformation…excuse me, the Reformation to lead many people astray from the Truth! That’s a bummer.

 

[Paris_Blues]

You know, it’s amazing how we each tell what caused what and this and that. Only God knows the REAL answer.

 

[Melchior]

Barsapp said:

As Catholics we also have to study and lean a lot. Among those subjects to study is philosophy. To understand how the fruits of Protestantism are like those of the fig tree: division, liberalism, relativism, subjectivism, modernism, in the long term… atheism… So, if you want to fight against this secular world, better forget about Protestantism, because Protestantism is the main cause of this secular world. But we need the help of philosophy to understand this.

This is simply historically ignorant. You will find Catholic nations far advanced in their secularism in Europe than in America which was founded on the most fundamentally Christian principles (Puritan mind you). And it was these Protestants that produced the most profound and godly governmental document in human history - The Constitution of The United States. We have more devout practicing Christians in this country than anywhere in the world.

You may want to study the history of Communism and Fascism in the 20th century before you go impugning Protestants with being the cause of secularization. Such a statement is beyond ignorant.

Feel free to criticize Protestants on the merits of their individual theologies. But then you will need to discern between Conservative Evangelicals (by far the most active group opposing secularization), Anglo-Catholics, Reformed, Anglo-Catholic, and confessional Lutherans, over and against mainline, liberal Protestants. Sweeping generalizations are never helpful. Especially when you ignore the liberals in your own church.

Mel

 

[johndock]

Just a correction. Ken Hensley was a Baptist Pastor not a Lutheran Pastor.

 

[Sherlock]

barsapp:

I really appreciate your sense of humor. That’s good. One first point here: I do not need Feeneyism to be Catholic. Second point: I’m not talking about any individual (precisely to avoid the “charge” of lack of charity). So I agree with your consideration regarding this matter.]

Feeneyism is inconsistent with orthodox Catholic teaching. So, I’ll agree with you: you don’t need to be a Feeneyite to be Catholic–in fact, you can’t be both a Feeneyite and a good Catholic.

barsapp:

Third: I’m not even speaking on the state of any particular soul at the moment of death. That, for example, Luther, as Satan’s tool, is in Hell is not a dogma, there is no ex cathedra pronouncement on the matter. But… we can, and must, use reason and common sense. And reason and common sense show that the enemies of Christ are condemned to Hell. It is really hard to understand how an enemy of Christ would end in Heaven… (Some of the members of the Lutheran Synod expressed that the blessing of gay couples concords with Christ’s teachings. Don’t surprise me: when you are out of the Holy Church you are totally blind, you do not, you can not, recognize Christ). An interesting idea to think about it: evangelization as contrary to ecumenism. “We can’t brand with the name “heretic” all those who follow Protestantism”: yes, we can, if you want add “formal” or “material”. What we can not do is change definitions, words, meanings. Back to the title of the thread: Was the devil part of the Reformation? “in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God” (John 16:2).

I agree that those who are the enemies of Christ at the time of their death will logically be condemned; however, I don’t know the state of their soul at the time of their death. Regardless of their sins, they may experience a death-bed conversion—it could happen. Trust me, I’m no fan of Luther or Protestantism, but I will not condemn individuals because I’m not God. End of story.

As for making the distinction between “formal” or “material” heretics—it may make for interesting discussions amongst Catholics, but will alienate those you are trying to bring to the fullness of truth. And that IS your job, like it or not. How many non-Catholics have you brought to Mass? Have you had non-Catholics approach you with questions, because they recognize you as a well-informed yet loving disciple of Christ?

 

[barsapp]

Melchior:

This is simply historically ignorant. And it was these Protestants that produced the most profound and godly governmental document in human history - The Constitution of The United States. We have more devout practicing Christians in this country than anywhere in the world.
You may want to study the history of Communism and Fascism in the 20th century before you go impugning Protestants with being the cause of secularization. Such a statement is beyond ignorant.

You are completely right: I need to study and lean more history and philosophy. As a matter of fact… all of us need that.

As far as a know secularization started long before Communism and Fascism… Maybe you do not know the strong linkage between Protestantism and Capitalism (remember Max Weber?), the same strong linkage between Capitalism and its “totalitarian” offspring: Communism and Fascism….

Regarding the Constitution of the USA maybe you could explain me how the “most profound and godly governmental document in human history” permitted Roe vs. Wade…

But if you do not see the continuum between Protestantism, Subjectivism, Relativism, Modernism and Atheism… Try to understand how things happen. Well, we have to refuse this ideology that also menaces the Church from within…

 

[barsapp]

Sherlock:

How many non-Catholics have you brought to Mass? Have you had non-Catholics approach you with questions, because they recognize you as a well-informed yet loving disciple of Christ?

Wish I brought a Catholic to Mass! Wish I had Catholics approaching me because of what you say!

 

[barsapp]

barsapp:

Regarding the Constitution of the USA maybe you could explain me how the “most profound and godly governmental document in human history” permitted Roe vs. Wade…

forgive me for quoting myself… but do not forget to include, besides Roe vs. Wade, slavery, racial segregation and nuclear bombing, all of them within the framework of the “most profound and godly governmental document in human history”…

 

[bekalc]

barsapp:

I really appreciate your sense of humor. That’s good. One first point here: I do not need Feeneyism to be Catholic. Second point: I’m not talking about any individual (precisely to avoid the “charge” of lack of charity). So I agree with your consideration regarding this matter.

Third: I’m not even speaking on the state of any particular soul at the moment of death. That, for example, Luther, as Satan’s tool, is in Hell is not a dogma, there is no ex cathedra pronouncement on the matter. But… we can, and must, use reason and common sense. And reason and common sense show that the enemies of Christ are condemned to Hell. It is really hard to understand how an enemy of Christ would end in Heaven… (Some of the members of the Lutheran Synod expressed that the blessing of gay couples concords with Christ’s teachings. Don’t surprise me: when you are out of the Holy Church you are totally blind, you do not, you can not, recognize Christ). An interesting idea to think about it: evangelization as contrary to ecumenism. “We can’t brand with the name “heretic” all those who follow Protestantism”: yes, we can, if you want add “formal” or “material”. What we can not do is change definitions, words, meanings. Back to the title of the thread: Was the devil part of the Reformation? “in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God” (John 16:2).

I would be very careful with what I was saying. First of all we don’t know Martin Luther’s heart. Luther himself could have been deceived and confused. It doesn’t make his actions right, but from what I’ve studied Luther had a tough life. Don’t go around playing God and jury, Luther could have been someone who wanted to serve God but messed up. We just don’t know his heart only God does.

As for Protestants, most Protestants honestly don’t know their views are wrong. They honestly are not trying to go against Christ’s Church and they honestly believe they are serving Jesus. Many of them had nothing to do with the fights at the time, they are just the children born into their particular version of the faith. Or they were poorly catechized Catholics who didn’t really know their faith and weren’t converted.

I grew up Protestant and now I’m converting. But I would never ever say that the Holy Spirit is not with Protestants or that their aren’t geniune wonderful Protestants around. I have experienced God’s presence in the Protestant Churches.

I was at one time pretty judgmental and can be a bit harsh on Protetants. There was a Protestant pastor of the Church I went to that just railed against Catholicism and I was angry with him that he could be so closed minded. But then all I know is that the Lord rebuked me. God told me that it wasn’t me that made me open minded that if He hadn’t sent me to a Catholic high school, gave me Catholic family members. IF he hadn’t put me in the Methodist group in college, sent me to work in a Presbyterian Church. That all this time I was kicking and screaming because I was AG and I was doing all these interdenominational things. Basically God reminded me that it was because of Him that I am where I am today. I was convicted because I realized if I had different circumstances, I might hold very strongly the opinions of that particular pastor.

The point is change your life a bit, and you might be Protestant. I’d be very careful.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Paris Blues:

NonDenom:

DUH! We’re all sinners! Maybe it was because the devil LOVES to use fear to people so they can’t tell what’s going on. It’s like a spiritual “gag” so to speak.

If I eat a cheeseburger, maybe.

Yes well the devil also used the Deformation…excuse me, the Reformation to lead many people astray from the Truth! That’s a bummer.

OK - so: one is able to state that as a fact because one knows it…how ? An opinion or guess is just that - an opinion or a guess. It’s a Catholic equivalent of saying the CC is “one vast complicated system of devil-worship” - such remarks only teach us to think ill of each other, instead of wishing nothing but good to each other How can a country flourish in peace, if its inhabitants believe their neighbours are devil worshippers ?

You say, very rightly, “DUH! We’re all sinners!” No argument there - so why pick on the Reformation for special notice ? Precisely because “[w]e’re all sinners”, it is either banal or defamatory to pick on the Reformation as though it were any more devil-related than (say) the CC or the USA or anything else.

If it’s banal - it’s obvious, so doesn’t need saying.
If it’s defamatory - it shouldn’t be said.

And there is nothing Catholic in “dissing” other Christians - it would be an awful pity to get into a habit like that; it’s very hard to break.

But:

• Phl 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things [are] honest, whatsoever things [are] just, whatsoever things [are] pure, whatsoever things [are] lovely, whatsoever things [are] of good report; if [there be] any virtue, and if [there be] any praise, think on these things.
• Col 3:14 And above all these things [put on] charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

If all who claim to be Christians did that, there would be none of these unkind sayings at all. ##

 

[bekalc]

In the end I truly believe that is going to be judging people’s hearts. What I mean is Scripture says that God wrote his law into our hearts, and so I think that in a big way is how we are going to be judged.

I do think Luther was a false prophet and all don’t get me wrong. But that’s as far as I can go in my prounciations… I certainly don’t want to judge Luther.

The point I’m making is that most Protestants don’t know they are going against the Church and when it comes to material and formal heresy, I’m quite sure the full consent of the will must come into play, lust like it comes into play with mortal sins. If some Protestants don’t know they are going against Christ’s Church than that needs to be recognized…

 

[barsapp]

bekalc:

I would be very careful with what I was saying. First of all we don’t know Martin Luther’s heart. Luther himself could have been deceived and confused. It doesn’t make his actions right, but from what I’ve studied Luther had a tough life. Don’t go around playing God and jury, Luther could have been someone who wanted to serve God but messed up. We just don’t know his heart only God does.
As for Protestants, most Protestants honestly don’t know their views are wrong. They honestly are not trying to go against Christ’s Church and they honestly believe they are serving Jesus. Many of them had nothing to do with the fights at the time, they are just the children born into their particular version of the faith. Or they were poorly catechized Catholics who didn’t really know their faith and weren’t converted.
I grew up Protestant and now I’m converting. But I would never ever say that the Holy Spirit is not with Protestants or that their aren’t geniune wonderful Protestants around. I have experienced God’s presence in the Protestant Churches.
I was at one time pretty judgmental and can be a bit harsh on Protetants. There was a Protestant pastor of the Church I went to that just railed against Catholicism and I was angry with him that he could be so closed minded. But then all I know is that the Lord rebuked me. God told me that it wasn’t me that made me open minded that if He hadn’t sent me to a Catholic high school, gave me Catholic family members. IF he hadn’t put me in the Methodist group in college, sent me to work in a Presbyterian Church. That all this time I was kicking and screaming because I was AG and I was doing all these interdenominational things. Basically God reminded me that it was because of Him that I am where I am today. I was convicted because I realized if I had different circumstances, I might hold very strongly the opinions of that particular pastor.
The point is change your life a bit, and you might be Protestant. I’d be very careful.

I understand your point, but I think your picture of Luther is not very accurate. He was perfectly aware of his heresy and he had many opportunities to repent, but he didn’t. On the contrary, he persistently held his heretical beliefs. It is true that he was a mediocre theologian, but this can not be considered as an excuse. Furthermore, to try to justify any of Luther’s attitudes, diminish the role of the true reformers within the Holy Church.
“Don’t go around playing God and jury”. Another point to clarify is that in fact the Church holds the power to leave people out of heaven (or in hell that is the same). Matt 16, 19: “I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven”. We also know that some sins are never forgiven. And we also know that the Holy Church, by the will of Christ, will act also as a “jury”. This fact remains the same: heretics do burn in hell.****Matt 19, 28: “Jesus said to them, “Amen, I say to you that you who have followed me, in the new age, when the Son of Man is seated on his throne of glory, will yourselves sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.””. Luke 22, 30: “you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel”. 1 Cor. 6, 2: “Do you not know that the holy ones will judge the world?” The Holy Church can judge and condemn heretics, She holds that power. And it is not a matter of “when”, but a matter of “if”.
Finally, to mention those persons who were born within a heretical denomination, and never heard about the Holy Church, you can use the words “material heretics”. If they refuse the Holy Church, they are considered “formal heretics”.
Of course we have to be polite with Protestants, the only thing we can not do is trying to change history and words meaning.

 

[Melchior]

Barsapp wrote:

forgive me for quoting myself… but do not forget to include, besides Roe vs. Wade, slavery, racial segregation and nuclear bombing, all of them within the framework of the “most profound and godly governmental document in human history”…

Are you saying that Roe vs. Wade, Slavery, Segregation, Nuclear Bombing is found in the Constitution? Or are you saying that it is the fault of Protestants? Or both? Nothing you listed above can be taken as a result of the Constitution. But perhaps you can give us a better example of a constitution or system of goverment.

Citing evils done inspite of our Constitution does not make your case any stronger.

Bye.

Mel

 

[barsapp]

Melchior:

Citing evils done inspite of our Constitution does not make your case any stronger.

done in the framework of the “most profound and godly governmental document in human history”…
if a Constitution could not prevent, furthermore validated, all kind of evils, what do you need for?