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MT1926
Guest
Just curious how do you believe one can find the “real” truth of history and not that you are just following “your” truth of History?
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goout
Guest
If you want to talk about the early Church, you talk about Jesus, the word made flesh among humanity.
The Church is Jesus. The Church is His Mystical Body.
Jesus himself gathered a community around him and sent them forth. Ecclesial authority is a charism or gift from Jesus himself.
Essentially, all denials of Church authority are a denial of the Incarnation. When you go round about who said what in which century, you will go round in circles about human power and authority instead of looking at Jesus and what (who) he instituted.
The Church is Jesus, the Word made Flesh. And the Church is Catholic, it is whole, it is universal, it must be one, not divided. It must be continuous, not ruptured here and there.
If the Church is not Catholic, Jesus is a lunatic.
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almost2
Guest
Interesting intellectual explanation.
But
Jesus took Back the spiritual authority from the devil.
And offered it to his deciples.
This is why iam anointed by the holy spirit to
As saint Paul instructed in 1cor 12.
1cor 14:25-26.
I have functioned in the 9 ministry gifts as the holy spirit has instructed.
This is how you set people free from the bontage of the devil.
By the authority
But
Jesus took Back the spiritual authority from the devil.
And offered it to his deciples.
This is why iam anointed by the holy spirit to
As saint Paul instructed in 1cor 12.
1cor 14:25-26.
I have functioned in the 9 ministry gifts as the holy spirit has instructed.
This is how you set people free from the bontage of the devil.
By the authority
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goout
Guest
Not sure what you are addressing with that?
To address just one thing in your post:
The devil never had spiritual authority, at least in the way we are speaking about authority. Jesus takes nothing back from anyone, because no one else is Him, and no one else has what he has to give.
Authority is not the domination of temporal power. It is servant authority to others using the Charisms that Christ granted to his community.
It is impossible to miss the granting of authority to the community in the Gospels.
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almost2
Guest
Thanks I don’t understand your commentary
But
The devil offered Jesus his authority if he would worship him.
But
The devil offered Jesus his authority if he would worship him.
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AugustTherese
Guest
If the early Church was not Catholic, what was it? Lutheran? Baptist? Eastern Orthodox? etc etc. etc.
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goout
Guest
Right.
Not the same thing. A cheap substitute.
Do you imagine the devil can offer the incarnate God something of value?
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thistle
Guest
The name “the Catholic Church” (Greek: katholikos ekklesia) developed from Acts 9:31 “the Church throughout all” (Greek: ekklesia kath olos).
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Bookcat
Guest
Yes the early Church was Catholic.
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BlackFriar
Guest
You arent catholic are you?
Or should I say Catholic?
Or should I say Catholic?
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MT1926
Guest
The devil didn’t have any spiritual authority. I believe you are referring to Luke 4:6. Just read verse 5, it says the devil showed Jesus all of the kingdoms of the WORLD. The devil was offering Jesus earthly praise, power and authority. Some scholars believe the devil did not know Jesus was God at this very moment and was tempting Him like he would an other human. If Jesus did accept the devils earthly authority the devil would have won. Why? Because, Jesus would have turned from His Mission which was to preach the heavenly spiritual things.
Matthew 28:18-20
18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”
Jesus tells us here that it was “GIVEN” to me. He doesn’t say “GIVEN BACK” to me.
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Hunho
Guest
Thank you very much for the talk “How Do We Know the Early Church?” by Dr. William Marshner! It is a fascinating, enjoyable, and highly informative video by a great speaker.
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eddietoo
Guest
believing that Jesus did not create a method to ensure His graces, blessings and teachings were preserved as He intended for all future generations of His followers is the same as believing that Jesus can not be known by the generations after the apostolic generation.
apostolic succession is the method Jesus created so that we, 2,000 years afters His Ascension can be confident that His Life and teachings we receive are true, authentic and accurate.
apostolic succession is the method Jesus created so that we, 2,000 years afters His Ascension can be confident that His Life and teachings we receive are true, authentic and accurate.
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De_Maria
Guest
Only because a seed does not look like the tree it becomes.Brittany:
No offence but care to share this?
I see this assumption a lot (together with the Catholics that wrote the Bible) yet the Early Church would look nothing like the Catholic Church today.
You don’t have to agree with the truth for it to be true. It is the Catholic Church which is described in Scripture and no other.
First, Jesus Christ appointed a Pastor as head of the entire Church:
John 21:17
He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
I see only a few Churches with such a Pastor. Further, Jesus Christ said that the Pastor over His Church would be infallible:
Matthew 16:17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
cont’d
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De_Maria
Guest
continued with @MichaelP3
The list of Churches accept this teaching gets smaller. Certainly, all Protestant denominations can now be eliminated.
Jesus Christ not only said that the Pastor was infallible but Scripture describes the Church as infallible:
Ephesians 3:10
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
The list remains the same, but now I can certainly eliminate all Protestant denominations.
Back to Matt 16:18, Scripture says that Jesus Christ established one Church. History shows that all the Churches sprang from the Church which is frequently described as the Mother Church. The Catholic Church.
So, even using just a few verses we can eliminate the Protestants. None of their denominations even come close to being in Scripture. But we can continue to find Catholic indicators throughout the Bible:
The Church which is infallible (1 Tim 3:15; Eph 3:10).
The Church which is united (Eph 4:5).
The doctrines of the Catholic Church which are distinctive from other churches:
Purgatory (1 Cor 3:15).
Eucharist (1 Cor 11:23-27).
Communion of Saints (Rom 12:12-20).
The Mass and the necessity to attend (Heb 10:25-31).
The Sacrament of Confession (Heb 13:17).
The Sacrament of Holy Orders (1 Tim 4:14).
The Sacrament of Baptism (Titus 3:5).
Justification and salvation by faith and works (Rom 2:1-13).
And we find that the Protestant doctrinal pillars all contradict Scripture. For instance:
Sola Scriptura contradicts 2 Thess 2:152 Thessalonians 2:15
King James Version (KJV)
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
Sola Fide contradicts James 2:24
James 2:24
King James Version (KJV)
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
OSAS contradicts Heb 6:4-6
Hebrews 6:4-6
King James Version (KJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Every Protestant doctrine which contradicts the Catholic Church also contradicts the Word of God in the Bible.
So, the fact that Jesus Christ established the Catholic Church is recorded in the New Testament. And Protestants nor their doctrines are anywhere to be found in those venerable pages.
The list of Churches accept this teaching gets smaller. Certainly, all Protestant denominations can now be eliminated.
Jesus Christ not only said that the Pastor was infallible but Scripture describes the Church as infallible:
Ephesians 3:10
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
The list remains the same, but now I can certainly eliminate all Protestant denominations.
Back to Matt 16:18, Scripture says that Jesus Christ established one Church. History shows that all the Churches sprang from the Church which is frequently described as the Mother Church. The Catholic Church.
So, even using just a few verses we can eliminate the Protestants. None of their denominations even come close to being in Scripture. But we can continue to find Catholic indicators throughout the Bible:
The Church which is infallible (1 Tim 3:15; Eph 3:10).
The Church which is united (Eph 4:5).
The doctrines of the Catholic Church which are distinctive from other churches:
Purgatory (1 Cor 3:15).
Eucharist (1 Cor 11:23-27).
Communion of Saints (Rom 12:12-20).
The Mass and the necessity to attend (Heb 10:25-31).
The Sacrament of Confession (Heb 13:17).
The Sacrament of Holy Orders (1 Tim 4:14).
The Sacrament of Baptism (Titus 3:5).
Justification and salvation by faith and works (Rom 2:1-13).
And we find that the Protestant doctrinal pillars all contradict Scripture. For instance:
Sola Scriptura contradicts 2 Thess 2:152 Thessalonians 2:15
King James Version (KJV)
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
Sola Fide contradicts James 2:24
James 2:24
King James Version (KJV)
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
OSAS contradicts Heb 6:4-6
Hebrews 6:4-6
King James Version (KJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Every Protestant doctrine which contradicts the Catholic Church also contradicts the Word of God in the Bible.
So, the fact that Jesus Christ established the Catholic Church is recorded in the New Testament. And Protestants nor their doctrines are anywhere to be found in those venerable pages.
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PJM
Guest
I’m going to be concise here so as to be clearly understood
“Salvation is from the Jews”
The Apostles were Jews
YES: ALL of the Churches Christian were factually Catholics [except heretics] until 1054 AD and the GREAT Eastern Schism; and yes its biblical and historical
From Jewish Traditions:
“Salvation is from the Jews”
The Apostles were Jews
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De_Maria
Guest
There, it’s gone.
As the old saying goes, “methinks, the lady objects too much.”
Perhaps now, you’ll address the rest of the points I made.
Ok, so let’s take the telephone game and a book of instructions and an instructor. Now, you call the next person and hand them some instructions. Then tell them to call you if they have any questions. They do so and you teach them precisely what you meant and how to accomplish what you intended. Then, you instruct them to do precisely the same thing with the next person. Now, what do you think the results will be?
That is how the Catholic Church has passed down the Word of God for 2000 years.
Protestants have produced so much confusion in 500 years because all they do is put confusing instructions in the box and expect everyone to figure it out for themselves. And each one of them puts the instructions aside and does what he thinks is best.
As the old saying goes, “methinks, the lady objects too much.”
Perhaps now, you’ll address the rest of the points I made.
That’s funny. Have you ever tried to put a child’s toy together with nothing but the instructions that came in the box? We call them “de” structions. Because we usually have to put them aside and figure it out ourselves.MT1926:
This is a fair point, but what is the alternative? Oral tradition? Take 20 people today with the words and play the telephone (maybe called something else in English) game? With something stupid as “the guy tied his shoe and went walking” and see how that comes out? Or… that could have been written down from the start and no issues?
But that doesn’t approximate the Catholic practice, does it? Or have you never heard of the Three Legged Stool? Tradition, Scripture and Magisterium (Teacher).
Ok, so let’s take the telephone game and a book of instructions and an instructor. Now, you call the next person and hand them some instructions. Then tell them to call you if they have any questions. They do so and you teach them precisely what you meant and how to accomplish what you intended. Then, you instruct them to do precisely the same thing with the next person. Now, what do you think the results will be?
That is how the Catholic Church has passed down the Word of God for 2000 years.
Protestants have produced so much confusion in 500 years because all they do is put confusing instructions in the box and expect everyone to figure it out for themselves. And each one of them puts the instructions aside and does what he thinks is best.
Ahhhh… Read it again. Can’t you see when a man is speaking metaphorically?
To you, as well.
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MichaelP3
Guest
Why would you do this? You quote literally a word from an entire sentence? You quote the word “no” from a post that said this… (And anyone else reading this, please check the up arrows on the right of a post to see what I mean. This was really not an honest reply. Actually this is the very example of that!)
Again why would you do this. That “no” has absolutely no connection to any of my posts here in the answer. It said “no offence” (which I meant) and asking a question.
Please De Maria. We will need to start and be honest before we can even try and have a conversation. You are not doing this right. Actually you are construing it in some way in your favour by very bad means. I cannot answer you in any way if this is the case. Either you are not reading or something much worse…
Regards
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neophyte
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