Was the fall necessary?

[elysianverse]

Shalom,

Since God knew man would fall and yet allowed it to happen, could it be because the fall was good for us? God will always do what’s good for us, so …

Elysian

 

[bmullins]

I think the fall was likely necessary because of our own nature. God gave us free will and it was ‘our choice’ to fall. In fact, we see it daily in our lives now that mankind even to this day is choosing the forbidden over the free and clear. I think the story of the fall is to remind us of that, that we are constantly faced with choices and that we can choose the good, or the bad.

 

[triumphguy]

As the Exultet says (as sung)

O certe necessárium Adæ peccátum,
quod Christi morte delétum est!
O felix culpa,
quæ talem ac tantum méruit habére Redemptórem!

O happy fault,
O necessary sin of Adam,
which gained for us so great a Redeemer!

Full version:

O truly necessary sin of Adam, destroyed completely by the Death of Christ!
O happy fault that earned so great, so glorious a Redeemer!

 

[seagal]

Shalom,

Since God knew man would fall and yet allowed it to happen, could it be because the fall was good for us? God will always do what’s good for us, so …

Elysian

It’s true God will always do what is good for us, but he didn’t cause the fall, he allowed it to happen. There’s a huge gulf there. Man caused the fall by being disobedient, and God allowed mankind to experience the effects of that choice. I can’t believe that God, watching Adam and Eve in the garden, said to himself “Great! They’re going to disobey me and that’s exactly what I want them to do!” More likely he said “They’re going to disobey me but I can still bring them back to me.”

 

[Trevor_Stamm]

Shalom,

Since God knew man would fall and yet allowed it to happen, could it be because the fall was good for us? God will always do what’s good for us, so …

Elysian

God foreknew the Fall before (though, philosophically, there was no “before” the beginning) the act of creation, so it is fitting that He knew when to send the Redeemer into the world before creation as well.

As far as it’s necessity, I like to quote St. Aquinas on the subject,

“This state enjoyed by man depended on the submission of the human will to God. That man might be accustomed from the very beginning to follow God’s will, God laid certain precepts on him. Man was permitted to eat of all the trees in Paradise, with one exception: he was forbidden under pain of death to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Eating of the fruit of this tree was prohibited, not because it was evil in itself, but that at least in this slight matter man might have some precept to observe for the sole reason that it was so commanded by God. Hence eating of the fruit of this tree was evil because it was forbidden. The tree was called the tree of knowledge of good and evil, not because it had the power to cause knowledge, but because of the sequel: by eating of it man learned by experience the difference between the good of obedience and the evil of disobedience.”

Now it being a “good” thing, no. That’s the entire lesson, to know that to disobey God is wrong, but also the act of disobedience towards anyone is wrong. The act was completely wrong, but necessary to see why it is wrong.

 

[jschutzm]

I don’t know if this helps and probably wouldn’t help convert anyone, especially Atheists, but I had a Jewish person email me an interesting perspective. I have since deleted the email and lost the link to the website he directed me to, so below is my best attempt at paraphrasing what he said.

For there to be LOVE, there must be a need or something missing. IF we are completely satisfied, happy, content and have everything we need, then there is no need for love and no reason to look for it or accept it from others. - In other words… a separation of some kind.

Therefore, the fall of man, had the side benefit of creating a need for which God’s love can be the answer. A separation which has the chance to lead to love.

One could argue with this that God is perfect, has no defect and yet he Loves - But he is not human. This applies to human philosophy and nature, not God.

One could argue that Adam and Eve loved God BEFORE the fall. However the bible doesn’t spend a whole lot of time on this and we could argue that their love was immature, untested, and obviously not complete enough to keep them from sinning.

But regardless, we should be able to both agree that after the fall, there existed a greater opportunity for the choice to love God more freely due to our separation then if it had never happened and our soul did not have that void or longing.

I would add to this idea, a very common idea - that we often do not appreciate or recognize how much we love something until we lose it. I think our separation from The Father is the source of this universal truth. That we know NOW that sometimes we don’t know WHAT we have, until we have lost it.

I don’t intend this to entirely explain the fall, but I think it is an interesting idea related to it and perhaps says more about the human condition then WHY the fall was necessary. But I still think it needs to be brought up.
Love often times requires a need or a longing - a separation.

 

[kra130]

The fall was not good for us nor was it necessary. this fall from grace has casued the eternal damnation of millions upon millions of people this is not good. Yes God knew we would fall and he could have stopped it but by giving us a free will he gave us the capacity to love him or reject him. This is not good for us because the best thing for us is to be with God.
Also its a misnomer that God will always do whats good for us the quote is “And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[a] for those who are called according to his purpose.”
Not all love him and not all are called and i don’t know how anyone can say that the beating flogging, and murder of the Son of God is a good thing.

 

[seagal]

For there to be LOVE, there must be a need or something missing. IF we are completely satisfied, happy, content and have everything we need, then there is no need for love and no reason to look for it or accept it from others. - In other words… a separation of some kind.

I don’t agree with your definition of love. To quote Fr. Robert Barron, “Love is desiring the good of the other as other”. It has nothing to do with US. We don’t love because it makes us feel good or fills some longing in us. That’s a very selfish love. We Love (and that’s an action word, not a feeling word) because we want the good of the other person. To love God is to want to do his will for us, to give ourselves totally to him to use for his purposes.

 

[grannymh]

The fall was not good for us nor was it necessary. this fall from grace has casued the eternal damnation of millions upon millions of people this is not good. Yes God knew we would fall and he could have stopped it but by giving us a free will he gave us the capacity to love him or reject him. This is not good for us because the best thing for us is to be with God.
Also its a misnomer that God will always do whats good for us the quote is “And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[a] for those who are called according to his purpose.”
Not all love him and not all are called and i don’t know how anyone can say that the beating flogging, and murder of the Son of God is a good thing.

Because there is a difference between the Creator and the created, in order to retain his friendship with God, Adam had to choose to live in free submission to his Creator. This he did not do. While there are serious effects from Adam’s choice, I would not conclude that this event per se caused the eternal damnation of millions upon millions of people. I say this because Adam’s descendants have Adam’s ability to choose love of God or to turn their backs. Like Adam, we have the ability to make up our own minds.

Blessings,
granny

The human person is worthy of profound respect.

 

[Ian_Ward]

Look at the question.

Is it better to that they ate the fruit or not? What would be better to listen to God’s command or not?

Was it inevitable? Yes. Necessary, on the contrary it was verry unessecary, it was bad.

Adamn and Eve should have listened to God end of story. But who is really that strong?