Was the Father the Father before the incarnation?

[Claire_from_DE]

I’m not sure this is the right forum but here goes…

We know that the Trinity exists from all eternity. We know the Trinity as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. St. John writes: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. It would appear that before Jesus was conceived, the Father was not called ‘Father’ and the Word wasn’t called ‘the Son’.

It almost seems that the incarnation changed something about God. Although from all eternity the Trinity knows that the Word will become man, there is a point in time when this occurs. So my question is could the Father be known as “Father” before the incarnation and could the Word be called “the Son” before He became Jesus?

I’m not sure there’s an answer to this question that we can understand in this life but I thought I’d ask, just in case.

 

[MikeDunphy]

Interesting question. In the Nicene Creed, we say that our Lord is “eternally begotten of the Father”, so it seems that the Father and the Son have a father-son relationship from eternity, rather than having had that relationship start with our Lord’s incarnation. The Son has always had a Father, but has not always had a mother.

 

[The_Reginator]

Interesting question. In the Nicene Creed, we say that our Lord is “eternally begotten of the Father”, so it seems that the Father and the Son have a father-son relationship from eternity, rather than having had that relationship start with our Lord’s incarnation. The Son has always had a Father, but has not always had a mother.

And don’t forget that God is eternal and outside of time.
The Incarnation happened in time FOR US ONLY. For God the Incarnation always is. There is no such thing as ‘before’ and ‘after’.
(I can say that, but I cannot wrap my head around it!)

• Reg

 

[Gabriel_Serafin]

We know much about God because of what He has revealed about Himself through the Old and New Testaments. In Christian theology, the concepts of “Father” Son" and “Holy Spirit” are human figures of speech in order to describe, in human terms, realities beyond our comprehension. Human beings were made in the “Image and Likeness of God” insomuch as we have the power to know, produce ideas, and willfully choose to act. Yet God is infinite and Man is infinitely limited. The mind of Man trying to understand God is much like an ant trying to understand algebra.

In theology, God is called “Father” because fatherhood is the Principle of Generation. Much like the mind of Man is fecund with ideas, so the mind of God, Who is Infinite, is the “Eternal Thought” Who begot an “Eternal Word”

Just as your mind has the power to beget ideas, and express them in words, so the “Eternal Thought” begot an Eternal Word. In other words: THE FATHER BEGOT AN ETERNAL SON. GOD is not an old man with a beard. God is a Spirit.

Thus the Trinity is Three yet One, much like you can conceive a thought, your thought becomes a spoken word, and from your thought and word comes an act. Thus you can think the thought “run” Speak the thought “run” and actually run, your thought, word and act are distinct yet one in the same.

Thus In John 1:1 Scripture speaks of this:

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God…and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us…”

 

[Robertanthony]

Is the Holy Spirit one person or is he just the link between the Father and the Son, is he a “product” of the love that unites them, of their relationship? Could the three separate and function independantly, although not one could go against the will of the others? Did the Trinity stop being a trinity for 33 years and 9 months? Why does the Father have more glory than Jesus: Jesus is the way to the Father, but not the other way around?

 

[Gabriel_Serafin]

Is the Holy Spirit one person or is he just the link between the Father and the Son, is he a “product” of the love that unites them, of their relationship? Could the three separate and function independantly, although not one could go against the will of the others? Did the Trinity stop being a trinity for 33 years and 9 months? Why does the Father have more glory than Jesus: Jesus is the way to the Father, but not the other way around?

The Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the Trinity. At the Incarnation it was the Second Person of the Trinity Who became man and dwelt among us. Man could not reach God on his own, thus God reached down to man— and we reach the Father through Christ.

Here is a brief article worth reading about this.

Jesus Christ is One Person with two natures: Divine and Human—True God and True Man. Thus in Scripture He speaks as both God and man.

But these are questions which the Catechism of the Catholic Church addresses, so the Catechism should be the first place to look for answers. You can study the Vatican’s online version or this searchable Catechism at www.scborromeo.org

Here is a brief example of what you will find:

*#252 The Church uses (I) the term “substance” (rendered also at times by “essence” or “nature”) to designate the divine being in its unity, (II) the term “person” or “hypostasis” to designate the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the real distinction among them, and (III) the term “relation” to designate the fact that their distinction lies in the relationship of each to the others.

The dogma of the Holy Trinity

#253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the “consubstantial Trinity”. The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: “The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God.” In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), “Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature.”

#254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another. “God is one but not solitary.” “Father”, “Son”, “Holy Spirit” are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: “He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son.” They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: “It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds.” The divine Unity is Triune.

#255 The divine persons are relative to one another. Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another: “In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both. While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance.” Indeed “everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship.” “Because of that unity the Father is wholly in the Son and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Son is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son.”*

 

[Little_One0307]

Hi,

I would also recommend Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Dr. Ludwig Ott. There is a section that deals with the Trinity as well as the relationship of the Three Persons within the Godhead.

It uses the Scriptures and Church Fathers as well.

Little One0307

 

[Jflava]

I’m not sure this is the right forum but here goes…

We know that the Trinity exists from all eternity. We know the Trinity as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. St. John writes: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. It would appear that before Jesus was conceived, the Father was not called ‘Father’ and the Word wasn’t called ‘the Son’.

It almost seems that the incarnation changed something about God. Although from all eternity the Trinity knows that the Word will become man, there is a point in time when this occurs. So my question is could the Father be known as “Father” before the incarnation and could the Word be called “the Son” before He became Jesus?

I’m not sure there’s an answer to this question that we can understand in this life but I thought I’d ask, just in case.

Would knowing the answer to this make you to be determined to be holy? The Father is Supreme Eternal GOD, The Son is HIS manifestation in Human form and The Holy Spirit is HIS Universal presence. The 12 inches diameter brain of man should not expect to phantom everything about an immeasurable GOD that Created an immeasurable Universe, HE is simply unfathomable!

 

[Gabriel_Serafin]

The Father is Supreme Eternal GOD, The Son is HIS manifestation in Human form and The Holy Spirit is HIS Universal presence.

Careful, this sounds like an early heresies condemned by the Church.

From Catholic Answers:

*GOD IN THREE PERSONS

The early Christians were quick to spot new heresies. In the third century, Sabellius, a Libyan priest who was staying at Rome, invented a new one. He claimed there is only one person in the Godhead, so that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all one person with different “offices,” rather than three persons who are one being in the Godhead, as the orthodox position holds.

Of course, people immediately recognized that Sabellius’s teaching contradicted the historic faith of the Church, and he was quickly excommunicated. His heresy became known as Sabellianism, Modalism, and Patripassianism. It was called Sabellianism after its founder, Modalism after the three modes or roles which it claimed the one person of the Trinity occupied, and Patripassianism after its implication that the person of the Father (Pater-) suffered (-passion) on the cross when Jesus died.

Because Modalism asserts that there is only one person in the Godhead, it makes nonsense of passages which show Jesus talking to his Father (e.g., John 17), or declaring he is going to be with the Father (John 14:12, 28, 16:10) One role of a person cannot go to be with another role of that person, or say that the two of them will send the Holy Spirit while they remain in heaven (John 14:16-17, 26, 15:26, 16:13–15; Acts 2:32–33).

Modalism quickly died out; it was too contrary to the ancient Christian faith to survive for long. Unfortunately, it was reintroduced in the early twentieth century in the new Pentecostal movement. In its new form, Modalism is often referred to as Jesus Only theology since it claims that Jesus is the only person in the Godhead and that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are merely names, modes, or roles of Jesus. Today the United Pentecostal Church, as well as numerous smaller groups which call themselves “apostolic churches,” teach the Jesus Only doctrine. Through the Word Faith movement, it has begun to infect traditionally Trinitarian Pentecostalism. Ironically, Trinity Broadcasting Network, operated by Word Faith preacher Paul Crouch, has given a television voice to many of these Jesus Only preachers (who are, of course, militantly anti-Trinitarian).

In the quotes that follow, the Fathers’ forceful rejection of Modalism is shown not only when they condemn it by name, but also by passages in which they speak of one person of the Trinity being with another, being sent from another, or speaking to another.*

LINK

 

[Robertanthony]

The Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the Trinity. At the Incarnation it was the Second Person of the Trinity Who became man and dwelt among us. Man could not reach God on his own, thus God reached down to man— and we reach the Father through Christ.

Here is a brief article worth reading about this.

Jesus Christ is One Person with two natures: Divine and Human—True God and True Man. Thus in Scripture He speaks as both God and man.

But these are questions which the Catechism of the Catholic Church addresses, so the Catechism should be the first place to look for answers. You can study the Vatican’s online version or this searchable Catechism at www.scborromeo.org

Here is a brief example of what you will find:

*#252 The Church uses (I) the term “substance” (rendered also at times by “essence” or “nature”) to designate the divine being in its unity, (II) the term “person” or “hypostasis” to designate the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the real distinction among them, and (III) the term “relation” to designate the fact that their distinction lies in the relationship of each to the others.

The dogma of the Holy Trinity

#253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the “consubstantial Trinity”. The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: “The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God.” In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), “Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature.”

#254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another. “God is one but not solitary.” “Father”, “Son”, “Holy Spirit” are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: “He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son.” They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: “It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds.” The divine Unity is Triune.

#255 The divine persons are relative to one another. Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another: “In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both. While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance.” Indeed “everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship.” “Because of that unity the Father is wholly in the Son and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Son is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son.”*

Thanks for taking the time to write such a thorough post, lots of food for thought.

 

[Claire_from_DE]

Interesting question. In the Nicene Creed, we say that our Lord is “eternally begotten of the Father”, so it seems that the Father and the Son have a father-son relationship from eternity, rather than having had that relationship start with our Lord’s incarnation. The Son has always had a Father, but has not always had a mother.

I think this answers my question. I had forgotten about “eternally begotten”, so I guess the Father was always “Father”.

Thanks.