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Brad
Guest
Let’s put it this way. There has never been any scientific evidence to disprove a historical claim by the Bible.
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Brad
Guest
John of Woking:
This doesn’t wash with truth seekers. Let’s get both out in the open and see which makes the most sense.
Yes. That is the greatest defense of the evolution enterprise - undercut the intellilgence of the opposition - cast them as irrelevent and not following “proper method” or being outside the scope of science.
This doesn’t wash with truth seekers. Let’s get both out in the open and see which makes the most sense.
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Faithful_One
Guest
True, Brad.
What most people who try to fantacize away the Flood don’t realize (maybe they do and don’t care) is that Jesus himself believed in the authenticity (and accuracy) of the Flood account. In fact, the whole Jewish community did too.]
Saying the Flood wasn’t historical or “was not from God’” fundamentally amounts to calling Jesus a liar.
Jesus said:
"As it was in the days of Noah, so shall the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and knew not UNTIL THE FLOOD CAME AND TOOK THEM ALL AWAY". --JESUS (Matt.24:37-39)
Faithful One
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Batgirl1415
Guest
Yeah, there was a great flood. We’re not the only religion with a great flood. Many religions have sacred texts which contain information about a great flood.
The great flood was when the fossils on the earth were created, and most likely when dinosaurs were wiped out. Plus we have found the ark.
And well, when you think about it, we need to know and understand history and know at least a little bit about God and his power in order to attain salvation. (And I’m not saying only those who know this will get salvation, that’s obviously untrue, but it’s easier to understand when you know something about God)
And about creation, I think that the basic truth is there. God made everything, but that doesn’t mean it took place in 7 days. It could have been 7 years or even 7 seconds. In fact, with God, there is no “time.” Time is a human reality, which had a beginning and will have an end. God never had a beginning and will not have an end because there is no such thing as time.
But yeah, God made everything on earth and said it was good. But then he made man and said it was VERY good, implying that we are superior to animals…and stuff…
Does that even make sense? I dunno, I’m just kind of rambling and thinking out loud. Don’t mind me. Maybe this has already been said, I don’t know because I’m too lazy to read the whole thread. Maybe I even sound unintelligent but whateva…
Peace…
The great flood was when the fossils on the earth were created, and most likely when dinosaurs were wiped out. Plus we have found the ark.
And well, when you think about it, we need to know and understand history and know at least a little bit about God and his power in order to attain salvation. (And I’m not saying only those who know this will get salvation, that’s obviously untrue, but it’s easier to understand when you know something about God)
And about creation, I think that the basic truth is there. God made everything, but that doesn’t mean it took place in 7 days. It could have been 7 years or even 7 seconds. In fact, with God, there is no “time.” Time is a human reality, which had a beginning and will have an end. God never had a beginning and will not have an end because there is no such thing as time.
But yeah, God made everything on earth and said it was good. But then he made man and said it was VERY good, implying that we are superior to animals…and stuff…
Does that even make sense? I dunno, I’m just kind of rambling and thinking out loud. Don’t mind me. Maybe this has already been said, I don’t know because I’m too lazy to read the whole thread. Maybe I even sound unintelligent but whateva…
Peace…
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Roch
Guest
This question brings to mind something we were taught by our homiletics instructor: “Every story is true. But did it really happen?”
Roch
Roch
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twf
Guest
If the Flood was local, what of the various Flood myths world-wide? Even the Aztecs had a flood myth that the gods sent upon the earth to wipe out many…a single couple surviving by building a boat. How is this possible? Unless you would say that all homo sapiens dwelled in the Middle-East at the time of the Flood. (There are so many examples of flood myths).
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twf
Guest
In this thread the historical nature of the Exodus has been called into question. I have a number of problems with this:
*Plague stalks through the land and blood is everywhere…the river is blood. Does a man drink from it? As a human he rejects it. He thirsts for water…Nay, but gates, columns and walls are consumed with fire…Nay but men are few. He that lays his brother in the ground is everywhere…Nay but the son of the high-born man is no longer to be recognized…The stranger people from outside are come into Egypt…Nay, but corn has perished everywhere. People are stripped of clothing, perfume and oil. Everyone says “there is no more”. The storehouse is bare…It has come to this. The king has been taken away by poor men."*This sounds like it could be a reference to the plagues recorded in the Book of Exodus. As for dating the Exodus, it should be recalled that the ancient Egyptian timeline generally accepted is contesting by some.
Here are some articles that may be interesting to some…the following is an exert from “Search for Moses” by David Down at answersingenesis.org/tj/v15/i1/moses.asp:
*By the traditional chronology of Egyptian history the 18th dynasty ruled from about 1550 to 1320 BC. According to Bible chronology the Exodus occurred about 1446 BC. But there is no evidence from 18th dynasty Egyptian records of a major disaster such as would have resulted from the 10 devastating plagues that fell on Egypt, or of the destruction of the Egyptian army during this period. Nor is there archaeological evidence for an invasion of Palestine under Joshua during this period.
The solution to this problem is a recognition that the chronology of Egypt needs to be reduced by centuries, bringing the 12th dynasty down to the time of Moses and the Exodus. When this is done there is found abundant evidence for the presence of large numbers of Semitic slaves at the time of Moses, the devastation of Egypt and the sudden departure of these slaves.
A reduction of the chronology of Egypt would also be reflected in the interpretation of the archaeological ages in Israel. There is little evidence for an invasion of Palestine at the end of the Late Bronze Period. But at the end of the Early Bronze Period there is evidence of Jericho’s fallen walls and the arrival of a new people with a new culture who should be identified as the invading Israelites under Joshua.*
Please take a look at the rest of the article.
(Note that it is not just this one author who is proposing the major revisions to the Egyptian chronology…and if these revisions are accurate, the 12th dynasty would be moved down to the dates of the Book of Exodus…which works very well, considering what we know of the 12th Dynasty).
answersingenesis.org/tj/v15/i1/sojourn.asp is also relevent. (“Sojourn of the Jews”).
I would also like to mention that I find it disturbing that our God would be so casually compared with a pagan deity, as has been done on this thread. It is an offence against His dignity! To refer to our God together with a pagan deity collectively as ‘gods’ and to suggest that YHWH (our God) was a ‘war god’ comparable to the pagan deities of the time is highly heretical. For the various claims that God, as described in the OT, is war-like and barbaric, please see the various ‘common objections’ at christian-thinktank.com/objedex.html. (This is a Protestant site…but still very good arguments are made…sorry, I’m a former Protestant converting, I don’t know as many Catholic sources yet
).
God bless,
Tyler
- New Testament writers seem to allude to it as a historical event. (Moses laying down the Law, the people being guided in the desert, etc…see for example Acts 7 when Stephen seems to equate the events of Exodus with history…and 1 Corinthians 10 and Gal. 3:16-19 where Paul seems to allude to historic events).
- Have not the Jews historically celebrated the Exodus as a real and true victory/event?
- Does it not seem that the author of Exodus is intending to express real history? I am no scholar…but that is certainly the impression I have always had…combined with tradition and the allusions to it elsewhere.
Not to mention that there is historical evidence for it outside of Scripture. (Though Scripture should be the standard, not secular records, which are not always complete…especially when talking about events this far back. Should we really expect all events in Scripture to be collaborated by secular witness? Think about the span of time we are talking about here!).
*Plague stalks through the land and blood is everywhere…the river is blood. Does a man drink from it? As a human he rejects it. He thirsts for water…Nay, but gates, columns and walls are consumed with fire…Nay but men are few. He that lays his brother in the ground is everywhere…Nay but the son of the high-born man is no longer to be recognized…The stranger people from outside are come into Egypt…Nay, but corn has perished everywhere. People are stripped of clothing, perfume and oil. Everyone says “there is no more”. The storehouse is bare…It has come to this. The king has been taken away by poor men."*This sounds like it could be a reference to the plagues recorded in the Book of Exodus. As for dating the Exodus, it should be recalled that the ancient Egyptian timeline generally accepted is contesting by some.
Here are some articles that may be interesting to some…the following is an exert from “Search for Moses” by David Down at answersingenesis.org/tj/v15/i1/moses.asp:
*By the traditional chronology of Egyptian history the 18th dynasty ruled from about 1550 to 1320 BC. According to Bible chronology the Exodus occurred about 1446 BC. But there is no evidence from 18th dynasty Egyptian records of a major disaster such as would have resulted from the 10 devastating plagues that fell on Egypt, or of the destruction of the Egyptian army during this period. Nor is there archaeological evidence for an invasion of Palestine under Joshua during this period.
The solution to this problem is a recognition that the chronology of Egypt needs to be reduced by centuries, bringing the 12th dynasty down to the time of Moses and the Exodus. When this is done there is found abundant evidence for the presence of large numbers of Semitic slaves at the time of Moses, the devastation of Egypt and the sudden departure of these slaves.
A reduction of the chronology of Egypt would also be reflected in the interpretation of the archaeological ages in Israel. There is little evidence for an invasion of Palestine at the end of the Late Bronze Period. But at the end of the Early Bronze Period there is evidence of Jericho’s fallen walls and the arrival of a new people with a new culture who should be identified as the invading Israelites under Joshua.*
Please take a look at the rest of the article.
(Note that it is not just this one author who is proposing the major revisions to the Egyptian chronology…and if these revisions are accurate, the 12th dynasty would be moved down to the dates of the Book of Exodus…which works very well, considering what we know of the 12th Dynasty).
answersingenesis.org/tj/v15/i1/sojourn.asp is also relevent. (“Sojourn of the Jews”).
I would also like to mention that I find it disturbing that our God would be so casually compared with a pagan deity, as has been done on this thread. It is an offence against His dignity! To refer to our God together with a pagan deity collectively as ‘gods’ and to suggest that YHWH (our God) was a ‘war god’ comparable to the pagan deities of the time is highly heretical. For the various claims that God, as described in the OT, is war-like and barbaric, please see the various ‘common objections’ at christian-thinktank.com/objedex.html. (This is a Protestant site…but still very good arguments are made…sorry, I’m a former Protestant converting, I don’t know as many Catholic sources yet
).God bless,
Tyler
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twf
Guest
I suppose the above post isn’t directly related to the Flood, but it is indirectly related. In both cases we are dealing with a major Biblical event of which the historical value has been called into question.
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Brad
Guest
No need for the paragraph disclaimer at the end. I think your “rambling” makes a good deal of sense next to all the modern “scholarship” that is running around.
I’m still of the mind that when God created the world, it was not a singularity, nor was it a combination of the 4 universal forces that the mind can get itself around that thrust everything into being, but that God himself created a planet on which life could exist. Ultimately, this requires an Earth that is “in-process” or already “aged”. For example, trees of all ages that could bear fruit of different kinds existed immediately, not just atoms that formulated into seeds that inserted into good soil and grew into trees. However, when I make this suggestion, scientists squirm because that would undercut man’s ability to rationally understand “everything” (the theory of everything) and would put an understanding of God as a higher priority than an understanding of science. Sorry, but God is the one that is all-knowing, not man - therefore it is man that will forever not know some things - by definition. We have to accept that fact and not try to fit our reality into our pre-determined conceptions and equations.
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Brad
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There is no reason to think that the book is not historical except for skeptics that refuse to believe in the supernatural intervention of God into the natural. There is no scientific evidence or historical writings that contradict the Exodus account. It is the divinely inspired Word of God. This book was written in a historical genre - there is no reason to doubt it’s historical authenticity.
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buffalo
Guest
Thinking out loud -
God says to Noah, I will send a local flood, Spend 100 years building an ark for a local flood I will send. Gather all the animals and put them in the ark.
Noak asks God - exaclty how big is this flood gonna be?
God says - Oh, about 3,000 square miles.
Noah gets busy building the ark.
Then he gets to thinking. I can walk about 15 miles per day. If I walk 6 days a week for 1 year I can walk 6,240 miles.
So Noah asks God. Why do you make me spend 100 years buidling an ark when I can spend 1 year walking with my family and the animals and outrun it? When the waters subside I can then walk back?
Question - What is God’s reply to this?
God says to Noah, I will send a local flood, Spend 100 years building an ark for a local flood I will send. Gather all the animals and put them in the ark.
Noak asks God - exaclty how big is this flood gonna be?
God says - Oh, about 3,000 square miles.
Noah gets busy building the ark.
Then he gets to thinking. I can walk about 15 miles per day. If I walk 6 days a week for 1 year I can walk 6,240 miles.
So Noah asks God. Why do you make me spend 100 years buidling an ark when I can spend 1 year walking with my family and the animals and outrun it? When the waters subside I can then walk back?
Question - What is God’s reply to this?
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Dr.Smith
Guest
I am very shocked to see a topic like this on a Christian forum. The Inspired Scriptures say that God literally created the universe and everything in it. If you disagree with Scriptures historical accuracy or say its not all historical then you do not believe in the God of the Bible.
The Bible is historically accurate and nothing in it has ever been proven otherwise.
And the flood literally happened the way the historical book of Genesis says.
Now here is a question for those Christians that claim macro-evolution could have or did create humans.
Where is the fine line? When did the ape like ancestors become humans with souls that would fall into sin and go to heaven or hell? So do you believe in original sin, because if we evolved Adam and Eve never existed and never brought sin into the world.
The Bible is historically accurate and nothing in it has ever been proven otherwise.
And the flood literally happened the way the historical book of Genesis says.
Now here is a question for those Christians that claim macro-evolution could have or did create humans.
Where is the fine line? When did the ape like ancestors become humans with souls that would fall into sin and go to heaven or hell? So do you believe in original sin, because if we evolved Adam and Eve never existed and never brought sin into the world.
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patg
Guest
I am very shocked to see responses like this (and a few others) on a Catholic forum. Such gross misunderstanding and ignorance of the literary forms, cultural background, and history of the bible narratives is sad - especially when numerous official documents clearly spell out the church’s position.
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Gottle_of_Geer
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
*All *historical ? OK - what is the historical element in these:
Psa 89:8 O LORD God of hosts, who is mighty as thou art, O LORD, with thy faithfulness round about thee?Psa 89:9 Thou dost rule the raging of the sea; when its waves rise, thou stillest them.
Psa 89:10 Thou didst crush Rahab like a carcass, thou didst scatter thy enemies with thy mighty arm.
Psa 89:11 The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine; the world and all that is in it, thou hast founded them;
&
Isa 27:1 In that day the LORD with his hard and great and strong sword will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent, Leviathan the twisting serpent, and he will slay the dragon that is in the sea.
&
Isa 51:9 Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; awake, as in days of old, the generations of long ago. Was it not thou that didst cut Rahab in pieces, that didst pierce the dragon?
Isa 51:10 Was it not thou that didst dry up the sea, the waters of the great deep; that didst make the depths of the sea a way for the redeemed to pass over?
That is just for starters. There is a good deal of this sort of thing in the Bible - and it isn’t history.
Is a recipe useless or false because it is not history ? Why must all the Bible be history, in particular ? IMO, the issue here is not history, but truthfulness. And the texts can perfectly be truthful, without being records of things that happened.
The Bill of Rights is not history - it’s law. And is none the worse for that. ##
Proof of a thing is only possible, if one is capable of accepting it as such; one has to be willing to be persuaded. I’m not willing to be persuaded that people are abducted by aliens - so nothing can prove it. So here, with this topic. People can always find an explanation for a view they hold - one example is Fundamentalism; another, is Holocaust-denial; another, is the Da Vinci Code craze. Whether a thing is really credible, is irrelevant to whether it is believed. If people are convinced that Jesus is really a space alien, or died in Kashmir, or died in Rome, or that the Earth is flat, no power on earth will persuade them otherwise.
FWIW, I don’t worry my head about A & E - there are stories about the first humans in many literatures, and I don’t see that inspiration makes a legend or myth or fable any less legendary, mythical, or fabulous. It’s enough for me that the narratives in Genesis 1-3 give a far more exalted picture of God, man, and creation than many comparable tales from Israel’s neighbours. But if people don’t read them, they won’t be able to compare. Which is a great pity. For then they will miss most of the features that set Genesis apart from similar tales:
- Its ethical monotheism
- absence of polytheism
- absence of a fight with other gods
- The Creator-God has no wife or family
- no things created are eternal or self-sufficient
- no creation by Divine sexual activity
- no creation of man from a dead god
- the sea is not a god, & not female
- the first humans are not slaves to gods
- they are made in the image of this one ethical God
- there is a communion between God and man
- etc.
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Frank_T
Guest
Was the Flood true? I don’t know. No one wrote it down as a first person account. It is a story meant to teach a lesson, if we take it as history we tend to miss the lesson behind it. That does not mean that the story is unimportant, it just means that the story is used to teach a lesson. The question is: Do we pay attention to the lesson, or do we argue over whether the story is ‘true’ or not? God’s Word teaches Salvation History. The Flood story is part of that history, a Journey of God’s people(and us) to its completion in Jesus.
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JackQ
Guest
That baptism should not be repeated.
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twf
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JackQ: That’s a bit of a stretch, I think. Yes, I’m sure that could be one of the things God is saying indirectly in that passage; however, that would have absolutely no relevence for the originally intended audience (the pre-Christian era Jews). I think most of us can accept that at the very least, a great flood was sent. God promised He would never send a flood of such magnitude. The question is whether or not the Flood was global or limited to the MIddle East. (Both options could account, I suppose, for the widespread Flood myths and stories around the world…assuming that all of humanity was localized in the Middle-East, or wherever Noah was, at that time).
Gottle: In regards to my earlier post from a few months a go, what is your take on Exodus. Do you agree that it is historical? The genre certainly seems to be historical, as far as I can tell…and I get the impression that the Jews and the NT writers took Exodus as historical. As you can see in my above post, I included an ancient extra-Biblical witness that fits very well with the events of the Exodus.
Gottle: In regards to my earlier post from a few months a go, what is your take on Exodus. Do you agree that it is historical? The genre certainly seems to be historical, as far as I can tell…and I get the impression that the Jews and the NT writers took Exodus as historical. As you can see in my above post, I included an ancient extra-Biblical witness that fits very well with the events of the Exodus.
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BibleReader
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I personally believe that the creation accounts are pure unhistorical myths teaching faith and morals, and that even ancient Hebrew children were aware of this and would think that today’s fundamentalists, who believe that the creation accounts are historical, are astonishing and funny.
I personally believe that the flood account IS basically historical, but that the Holy Spirit couldn’t care less about its historicity, and that that story, too, is nonetheless a myth teaching faith and morals.
I personally believe that the flood account IS basically historical, but that the Holy Spirit couldn’t care less about its historicity, and that that story, too, is nonetheless a myth teaching faith and morals.
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Steve_Andersen
Guest
Faithful One:
It just means that he was using idioms that his audience would understand
If someone said that a woman looks like Venus or that a task made him feel like Sisyphus the doesn’t necessarily mean that they believe in the ancient pagan gods.
Just because Christ made a literary reference doesn’t indicate that He thought the story was literary true
It just means that he was using idioms that his audience would understand
If someone said that a woman looks like Venus or that a task made him feel like Sisyphus the doesn’t necessarily mean that they believe in the ancient pagan gods.
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