Was the Last Supper on a Tuesday?

[Dave_Noonan]

Perhaps this information would be interesting to you…by Dr. John Bergsma who has in PhD from Notre Dame University in Old Testament and Dead Sea Scrolls. He is now a professor at Stuebenville University.

johnbergsma.com/documents/outlines/deadseascrolls1.pdf

Although it’s hard to tell how his presentation text goes with these notes, there are sadly a number of obvious errors in the notes, in fact, probably too many to spend the time outlining them fully here.

1. As others have already observed, you can’t just say flat out that the people who lived at Qumran were Essenes simply because there is no direct evidence. There may be some commonalities between the text of the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Essenes as they are described by Josephus, but that’s about it. It’s ok to speculate, but you need to make it abundantly clear that this is what you are doing and not pass off speculation as historical fact.
2. The Sadducees may not have believed in the general resurrection of the dead, but that doesn’t mean they didn’t believe in an afterlife.
3. He left one of Josephus’s “sects” out entirely (the zealots).
4. We have no idea what texts the people who produced the Dead Sea Scrolls considered “canonical” or “inspired.” All we know is what was found in their library.
5. The Protestant vs. Catholic outline of “works of the law” part of the presentation is a.) a straw man and b.) such a facile analysis as to be incredible, and the idea that 4QMMT is a letter from Essenes to Pharisees is again, pure speculation. On the “works of the law” issue for example, see N.T. Wright, 4QMMT and Paul: Justification, ‘Works,’ and Eschatology which you can access here: www.ntwrightpage.com/Wright_4QMMT_Paul.pdf

 

[mskejj]

Although it’s hard to tell how his presentation text goes with these notes, there are sadly a number of obvious errors in the notes, in fact, probably too many to spend the time outlining them fully here.

1. As others have already observed, you can’t just say flat out that the people who lived at Qumran were Essenes simply because there is no direct evidence. There may be some commonalities between the text of the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Essenes as they are described by Josephus, but that’s about it. It’s ok to speculate, but you need to make it abundantly clear that this is what you are doing and not pass off speculation as historical fact.
2. The Sadducees may not have believed in the general resurrection of the dead, but that doesn’t mean they didn’t believe in an afterlife.
3. He left one of Josephus’s “sects” out entirely (the zealots).
4. We have no idea what texts the people who produced the Dead Sea Scrolls considered “canonical” or “inspired.” All we know is what was found in their library.
5. The Protestant vs. Catholic outline of “works of the law” part of the presentation is a.) a straw man and b.) such a facile analysis as to be incredible, and the idea that 4QMMT is a letter from Essenes to Pharisees is again, pure speculation. On the “works of the law” issue for example, see N.T. Wright, 4QMMT and Paul: Justification, ‘Works,’ and Eschatology which you can access here: www.ntwrightpage.com/Wright_4QMMT_Paul.pdf

Most of the biblical scholars have come to the conclusion that the group at Qurman were of the Essene sect. That is taken from many Christian biblical websites not just Catholic.
Dr. Bergma was a Calvinistic Protestant minister who converted to Catholicism while working on his PHD in Old Testament and Dead Sea Scrolls.

Listening to the 3 hour CD explains the outline…the sects were listed when he discussed the fact that at the time of Christ there were different sects which believed in different books of the OT as inspired. ]His point was that there was no set canon at the time of ]Christ. I have never heard any information on the Books that the Zealots followed. Their agenda was different than the others. The Sadducees followed only the Torah and the Palestinian Jews follow the Hebrew Canon and the Jews who had been dispersed throughout the world followed the Septuagint. He was showing that the Jews closed their Canon after Christ died…not before. Therefore, the idea that the Hebrew Bible is the only one that is inspired because that is what Christ used is not accurate. The Septuagint is quoted 90% of the time in the New Testament compared to only 10% of the Hebrew Bible. He was not saying that the Zealots were not a sect, but they were not important to the point he was making.

I am aware from Acts 23:8 that the Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, angels of spirits. And I am sure that Dr. Bergsma is aware of that too. If he used the words “afterlife” in his outline, I am sure he was referring to the above.

The Letter from this group to the Pharisees tells us that they are not Pharasees. The Letter was entitled “Works of the Law” is the only ancient reference we have to the term outside the New Testament. This letter points to St. Thomas Aquinas interpretation that the “works of the law” spoken of by St. Paul were the works of Ritual Ceremonial nature…not prayers and acts of charity. This has been a question between Protestants and Catholics since Luther with his “Faith Alone” claim. Perhaps these letters can help the understanding of what is meant by Paul’s words especially since much of the language Paul uses in his letters we see in their writings.

 

[steve53]

“I thought when someone wrote a dissertation it had to be supported by evidence.”

LOL. Welcome to the real world.

The Pythagoreans were a well-described sect. Josephus argues that Pythagoras patterned it after the Jewish Essenes.

Josephus also describes an ascetic named Banas, who he studied under. He probably led some sort of school.

Josephus also mentions John the baptist, who had his followers and was, for all we know, an ascetic.

Josephus and ACTS (I think) mentions the Nazorites, which was a Temple-based program where ordinary men could practice a strict religious life-style for a set amount of time, at least months and probably years. In fact, Qumran could well be the retreat that these men would go on during their “Nazorite” commitment period.

Philo describes a group of Egyptian ascetics, that “academicians” have been trying to pin as being Essene for centuries.

The fact is, EVERY known religious ascetic communal group known in the ancient East has been labeled as being “probably” Essene at one time or another by some academic with impressive sounding credentials.

But read the original sources and MAKE UP YOUR OWN MIND.

 

[Dave_Noonan]

Most of the biblical scholars have come to the conclusion that the group at Qurman were of the Essene sect. That is taken from many Christian biblical websites not just Catholic.

This is my point exactly. There is a huge difference between saying “the majority opinion is…” (and explaining why) versus “the Qumranites were Essenes,” which is what his outline says. As I mentioned above, it’s ok to speculate, but to be honest you have to let people know that you’re doing it.

Dr. Bergma was a Calvinistic Protestant minister who converted to Catholicism while working on his PHD in Old Testament and Dead Sea Scrolls.

I’m not sure why that’s relevant, except I would agree that he seems to think all Protestants are Calvinists.

Listening to the 3 hour CD explains the outline…the sects were listed when he discussed the fact that at the time of Christ there were different sects which believed in different books of the OT as inspired. ]His point was that there was no set canon at the time of

]Christ. I have never heard any information on the Books that the Zealots followed. Their agenda was different than the others. The Sadducees followed only the Torah and the Palestinian Jews follow the Hebrew Canon and the Jews who had been dispersed throughout the world followed the Septuagint.

This information seems to be conflicting. You can’t say that there was no set canon at the time of Christ and then say that Palestinian Jews followed the Hebrew Canon. Not all Jews outside of Palestine were Greek speakers either.

He was showing that the Jews closed their Canon after Christ died…not before. Therefore, the idea that the Hebrew Bible is the only one that is inspired because that is what Christ used is not accurate.

This is the strawman part of his argument. Maybe he as a misinformed Calvinist thought this? Who knows.

The Septuagint is quoted 90% of the time in the New Testament compared to only 10% of the Hebrew Bible. He was not saying that the Zealots were not a sect, but they were not important to the point he was making.

I’m not sure what this has to do with the issue.

I am aware from Acts 23:8 that the Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, angels of spirits. And I am sure that Dr. Bergsma is aware of that too. If he used the words “afterlife” in his outline, I am sure he was referring to the above.

You can verify this by looking at the outline itself.

The Letter from this group to the Pharisees tells us that they are not Pharasees.

There is nothing in 4QMMT that says the letter is to the Pharisees. There is “us” “you” and “them.” Who is writing the text and who it’s addressed to and who the author is talking about is all highly speculative. It’s ok to speculate, but if you want to be honest to your audience, you have to tell people that you are doing it. Even the idea that this is a letter is speculation.

The Letter was entitled “Works of the Law”

This is simply false. 4QMMT doesn’t have a title.

This has been a question between Protestants and Catholics since Luther with his “Faith Alone” claim. Perhaps these letters can help the understanding of what is meant by Paul’s words especially since much of the language Paul uses in his letters we see in their writings.

As N.T. Wright points out in the link, the connection to Paul’s use of “works of the law” is highly speculative. I’m not sure where you are getting your information about Luther. This seems like yet another strawman, particularly after the Joint Declaration on Justification.

 

[steve53]

Gosh!

Bergsma has his very own online store!

catholicproductions.com/store/audio/bergsma/index.html

 

[mskejj]

Gosh!

Bergsma has his very own online store!

catholicproductions.com/store/audio/bergsma/index.html

And an extensive Curriculum Vitae to back it up

johnbergsma.com/cv.html

 

[steve53]

Why are you so impressed with Theological degrees?

If Bergsma states that Qumran definitely was an Essene colony, that just indicates how worthless they are.

A degree in Engineering or the sciences would be more impressive. At least Bergsma would know how to evaluate evidence properly, and apply the scientific method to analyze problems.

It is OK to worship superstars in the NBA, but not when dealing with the evaluation of ancient history and ancient writings.

 

[asd72]

Pope Benedict XVI addresses this very issue in his new book Jesus of Nazareth (Part II) Holy Week.

In the book the Pope discounts the idea of the Essene Calendar. However he does seem to agree that the “Last Supper” actually occurred on Tuesday night. But he is also sure that this was NOT the Passover meal, but his own special farewell meal.

It’s worth reading!

This is something I have been wondering about lately too. I have the Pope’s 2nd part book, but have not yet managed too read it. I wonder how this impacts on the 4 cup theory in relation to a sedar meal? I simply have too much going on with RCIA to look into right now though…

 

[asd72]

I am afraid much of your information is incorrect. The Sadducees were the High Priest and priests of the Temple. The Pharisees were not priests…they were teachers/rabbis of the law…they did not serve in the Temple. The Zealots were the ones who started the uprising that caused the destruction of the Temple.

The speaker of the CD has his PHD from Notre Dame Univ in 2004 on the Old Testament and the Dead Sea Scrolls and is a professor at Stuebenville University. The Qumran community existed from about 150BC to 68AD. And they did believe the Temple was defiled because the Romans chose a high priest every year with bribes etc. Instead of animal sacrifices for sins they offered their “prayer and sufferings”. Sound familiar?? They were know by Josephus report as the most pious of the Sects and their name comes from “Doers”…as in Doers of the Law. It is believed that John the Baptist was an Essene. They uncovered not only biblical texts but the “Rule of the community” which described much of the lifestyle. Very good evidence that the Last Supper was on a Tuesday and I believe Pope Benedict even addresses this in his book. Very similar ideas to the early church …you should check it out if you are interested. Here is his link…

johnbergsma.com/outlines.html

Thanks for that, will have a read later. I remember someone else putting forth different calendars as an explanation, maybe this is the same guy?

 

[Dave_Noonan]

Why are you so impressed with Theological degrees?

If Bergsma states that Qumran definitely was an Essene colony, that just indicates how worthless they are.

A degree in Engineering or the sciences would be more impressive. At least Bergsma would know how to evaluate evidence properly, and apply the scientific method to analyze problems.

It is OK to worship superstars in the NBA, but not when dealing with the evaluation of ancient history and ancient writings.

ND has some excellent, excellent Bible scholars on faculty but sadly seems to consistently turn out graduates in Biblical Studies that have a very rough time evaluating their ideas in light of the actual evidence. If you’re building a theoretical house of cards, that’s fine–some amount of speculation is always needed to advance the field–just don’t mislead other people into thinking that it’s fact. That’s dishonest.

 

[mskejj]

Why are you so impressed with Theological degrees?

If Bergsma states that Qumran definitely was an Essene colony, that just indicates how worthless they are.

A degree in Engineering or the sciences would be more impressive. At least Bergsma would know how to evaluate evidence properly, and apply the scientific method to analyze problems.

It is OK to worship superstars in the NBA, but not when dealing with the evaluation of ancient history and ancient writings.

I did not say that he “definitely” stated that the Qumran community was Essene but that all of the information that they found has led to the conclusion that they were most likely Essenes. There will always be some scholar who will come to a different conclusion but the majority of scholars believe that they were of the Essene sect. I hold more weight for a scholar who has actually worked with the materials than one who has only read about them.

 

[mskejj]

ND has some excellent, excellent Bible scholars on faculty but sadly seems to consistently turn out graduates in Biblical Studies that have a very rough time evaluating their ideas in light of the actual evidence. If you’re building a theoretical house of cards, that’s fine–some amount of speculation is always needed to advance the field–just don’t mislead other people into thinking that it’s fact. That’s dishonest.

It wasn’t intentional…I should have said that the information can lead one to conclude that the Qumranites were of the Essene sect. He did not say that they were 100% sure that they were Essenes but that the evidence leads one to that conclusion. This conversation started out because someone had listened to his DVD…I just responded with the information I remembered.

 

[steve53]

You are not doing this guy any favors by misrepresenting what he says on a public forum.

Do your homework before posting.

And, for the record, the Second Temple High Priest was not chosen every year. Originally, they were chosen for life or until incapacitated, but the Romans changed all that. The Romans or Roman proxy could remove a High Priest at their wish, but this usually only happened for cause. Ananus and other elders also found it convenient to remove and appoint High Priests as the circumstances changed, pending Roman approval.

 

[Dave_Noonan]

It wasn’t intentional…I should have said that the information can lead one to conclude that the Qumranites were of the Essene sect. He did not say that they were 100% sure that they were Essenes but that the evidence leads one to that conclusion. This conversation started out because someone had listened to his DVD…I just responded with the information I remembered.

So then how would you respond to page 24 of his handout? I believe you were the one that posted it?

 

[mercytruth]

The Essene solar calendar for celebrating Passover on Tuesday evening sounds intriguing, since John the Baptist may well have been an Essene.

However, if the 15th of the Passover month was then on a Wednesday, the Apostle Paul is incorrect in calling Jesus Christ the firstfruits from the dead, since the waving of the sheaf of firstruits in the Essene calendar is on the 26th of the month, which would be **eleven days after **the Passover supper…far too many days later. (The waving of the sheaf of firstfruits is the beginning of the counting of the 50 days of Omer leading up to Pentecost or, Shavuot.)

The waving of the sheaf of firstfruits was kept on the morning after the Sabbath in Passover week. It is likely that the resurrection of our Lord happened in the eighth day of Passover week on a Sunday. For it says in the gospel of John that Jesus appeared to doubting Thomas another eight days later.

Secondly, tradition has it that fasting is done on Wednesdays and Fridays. Wednesday was fasting in memory of the betrayal of Jesus and Friday was fasting in memory of our Lord’s crucifixion. Judas betrayed our Lord for thirty pieces of silver the day before the Passover Supper, which was traditionally on a Thursday.

Lastly, there was a disagreement with the Eastern Christians and the Western Christians regarding the day of the week to celebrate our Lord’s resurrection. The Eastern Christians followed the pattern of celebrating Passover on the 14th day of Nisan according to the **lunar calendar **of the Jewish people. Thus, the day of the Lord’s resurrection would be celebrated on the day of the week that was three days after whatever day of the week that the 14th day Nisan fell.

 

[mskejj]

So then how would you respond to page 24 of his handout? I believe you were the one that posted it?

The handout is to go along with his talk…it is an outline…and he was presenting the Qumran community as one that evidence has shown has many of the characteristics of the Essene community and therefore one can infer that they were of the Essene sect. This is the conclusion of most Biblical scholars. His discussion was to show how it is possible to reconcile the differences in John’s Gospel and the other gospels about the anointing in Bethany and the time frame and the fact that a man is carrying water which was woman’s work at that time. And the idea that he was before the High Priest, Pilate, Herod and back to Pilate all in a few hours of time leading up to His Scourging. He presented his case on the information taken from the documents found and showed how some prior scholars’ understanding of parts of the New Testament were skewed. His argument made sense and it isn’t something that I feel is out of context. But each person is free to trust his scholarly interpretation or not.

 

[mskejj]

You are not doing this guy any favors by misrepresenting what he says on a public forum.

Do your homework before posting.

And, for the record, the Second Temple High Priest was not chosen every year. Originally, they were chosen for life or until incapacitated, but the Romans changed all that. The Romans or Roman proxy could remove a High Priest at their wish, but this usually only happened for cause. Ananus and other elders also found it convenient to remove and appoint High Priests as the circumstances changed, pending Roman approval.

Exactly one of the reasons why this community felt the Temple was defiled. And the reason they did not offer sacrifices at the Temple.

 

[bmonk]

Pope Benedict XVI addresses this very issue in his new book Jesus of Nazareth (Part II) Holy Week.

In the book the Pope discounts the idea of the Essene Calendar. However he does seem to agree that the “Last Supper” actually occurred on Tuesday night. But he is also sure that this was NOT the Passover meal, but his own special farewell meal.

It’s worth reading!

I don’t know about the Essenes or their calendar. However, I agree with Pope Benedict that the chronology of John’s Gospel makes more sense: that Jesus died on the day of Preparation for Passover (which is why the Jewish Sanhedrin representatives would not enter Pilate’s house, and why they had time for the trial), which means that the Last Supper was not, strictly speaking, a Passover meal.

The problem here is that the various Gospels are simply contradictory: Matthew, Mark and Luke assume it’s the Passover that was prepared, while John indicates it was not a Passover.

 

[steve53]

Josephus is our only real source for the Essenes, and he also mentions John the Baptist. The fact that he doesn’t call John the Baptist an Essene bespeaks volumes.

Here is Josephus, a contemporary of Jesus, on the Passover. Contradict Josephus with your own suppositions at your own risk!

In the month of Xanthicus, which is by us called Nisan, and is the beginning of our year, on the** fourteenth day of the lunar month**, when the sun is in Aries, (for in this month it was that we were delivered from bondage under the Egyptians,) the law ordained that we should every year slay that sacrifice which I before told you we slew when we came out of Egypt, and which was called the Passover; and so we do celebrate this passover in companies, leaving nothing of what we sacrifice till the day following. **The feast of unleavened bread succeeds that of the passover, and falls on the fifteenth day of the month, and continues seven days, wherein they feed on unleavened bread; **on every one of which days two bulls are killed, and one ram, and seven lambs. Now these lambs are entirely burnt, besides the kid of the goats which is added to all the rest, for sins; for it is intended as a feast for the priest on every one of those days. But on the second day of unleavened bread, which is the sixteenth day of the month, they first partake of the fruits of the earth, for before that day they do not touch them. And while they suppose it proper to honor God, from whom they obtain this plentiful provision, in the first place, they offer the first-fruits of their barley, and that in the manner following: They take a handful of the ears, and dry them, then beat them small, and purge the barley from the bran; they then bring one tenth deal to the altar, to God; and, casting one handful of it upon the fire, they leave the rest for the use of the priest. And after this it is that they may publicly or privately reap their harvest. They also at this participation of the first-fruits of the earth, sacrifice a lamb, as a burnt-offering to God. (Antiq III 10:5)

And as the feast of unleavened bread was at hand, in the first month, which, according to the Macedonians, is called Xanthicus, but according to us Nisan, all the people ran together out of the villages to the city, and celebrated the festival, having purified themselves, with their wives and children, according to the law of their country; and they offered the sacrifice which was called the Passover, on the fourteenth day of the same month, and feasted seven days, and spared for no cost, but offered whole burnt-offerings to God, and performed sacrifices of thanksgiving, because God had led them again to the land of their fathers, and to the laws thereto belonging, and had rendered the mind of the king of Persia favorable to them. (Antiq XI 4:8)

 

[mercytruth]

There is another problem if one was to accept the “Essene solar calendar” as the basis for the Last Supper, or Passover supper.
bibarch.com/concepts/calendrics/essene_calendar.htm

One can see from this calendar that the 26th of Nisan is the beginning of the counting of the Omer of 50 days. Thus, **the 15th of Sivan **is known as Pentecost, or Shavuot.

The first Pentecost, or Shavuot is recorded as the ten commandments given orally on Mt.Sinai on the 6th or 7th of Sivan. This is recorded in Exodus chapters 19 and 20.
If the waving of the firstfruits, or the first day of Omer occurred on the 16th or 17th of Nisan, then the 6th or7th day of Sivan would be 50 days later according to an approximate 30 day lunar calendar.

It is very likely that the miraculous crossing of the Red sea occurred on the 17th day of Nisan. (The tenth day of Nisan in Egypt was the day the Passover lambs were chosen and set apart until the Passover meal of the 14th day of Nisan.)

It is very likely that our Lord Jesus Christ rose from the dead on the 17th day of Nisan and thus Paul refers to him as the 'firstfruits from the dead" in reference to the first day of Omer. (The tenth day of Nisan in days leading up to the Last Supper was probably the day that Jesus Christ rode into Jerusalem on a donkey, Palm Sunday.)

50 days after the resurrection of our Lord from the dead was the Pentecost in which the disciples received the law written on their hearts by the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. It is extremely unlikely that this day, Pentecost, or Shavuot was the 15th of Sivan according to the “Essene solar calendar”. It most likely occurred on the 6th or 7th day of Sivan.