Was the Latin Mass completely in Latin?

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When the Mass was celebrated only in Latin, was the entire liturgy in Latin… including the readings, the homily, etc., or was it just parts of it, e.g. some hymns, the Eucharistic prayer, etc? Which parts, if any of it, were in the vernacular?

Thank you.
 
jasev said:
When the Mass was celebrated only in Latin, was the entire liturgy in Latin… including the readings, the homily, etc., or was it just parts of it, e.g. some hymns, the Eucharistic prayer, etc? Which parts, if any of it, were in the vernacular?

Thank you.
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The Kyrie, as far as I know, has always been in Greek, not Latin. The homily, of course, would be in the vernacular, and often, the readings would be re-read in the vernacular, after the Latin was read.
 
jasev said:
When the Mass was celebrated only in Latin, was the entire liturgy in Latin… including the readings, the homily, etc., or was it just parts of it, e.g. some hymns, the Eucharistic prayer, etc? Which parts, if any of it, were in the vernacular?

Thank you.
Click to expand...
It was all in Latin, except:
  1. The homily can be in any language. Where people spoke Latin (in ancient times; in seminaries), it could be in Latin, sure.
  2. The readings were in Latin, but it was permissible to repeat them in the vernacular at the beginning of the homily. I have heard varying accounts of how common it actually was to bother doing it.
  3. In certain cases, usually for mission territories, permission was given to celebrate substantial portions of the Mass in the vernacular. This site gives examples of the texts used in Native American languages in America (here’s the Asperges in, I believe, Mohawk); and if I recall correctly the vernacular was also permitted in certain Slavic countries and in the Far East. It bears remembering that most of the Mass, including the Canon, was silent anyway, and would continue to be done in Latin.
  4. It has always been customary to sing vernacular hymns at a Low Mass. Since the nature of the Low Mass forbids singing any of the parts of the Mass (Introit, Gloria, Paternoster, etc.), and the entire Mass was essentially completely silent, congregations would sing popular hymns in essentially the same way we do now: an entrance hymn, and Offertory hymn, a hymn at Communion, and a recessional. At High Mass, where the Mass itself was sung, it was permissible to sing hymns if the Offertory or Communion took very long, but they were required to be in Latin. Though since the recessional has never been technically a part of the Mass, vernacular hymns are common even at High Mass.
Other than that, yes, all Latin.
 
Rolltide said:
The Kyrie, as far as I know, has always been in Greek, not Latin.
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And the “Amen” and “Alleulia” were in Hebrew 😉

( and technically, part of the Sanctus as well, “Sabaoth” is a Hebrew word, not Latin.)
 
Rolltide said:
The Kyrie, as far as I know, has always been in Greek, not Latin. The homily, of course, would be in the vernacular, and often, the readings would be re-read in the vernacular, after the Latin was read.
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Haha, yes, I forgot that one. Also, the words “amen,” “alleluia,” and “Sabaoth” (in the Sanctus) are Hebrew.

A small amount of Greek also shows up on Good Friday in the Improperia (“Hagios o Theos,” etc.).

Edited to add: No, Brendan and I did not coordinate that. 🙂
 
OP: In most cases, everything was in latin, (with small portions of greek and hebrew). The homily was obviously in the vernacular, and the readings in latin, but were often repeated in english before the homily.
 
TheMc said:
OP: In most cases, everything was in latin or greek or hebrew (see above). The homily was obviously in the vernacular, and the readings in latin, but were often repeated in english before the homily.
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I will say – and this is not particularly directed at you – that I do find it a bit precious to insist on saying “The Mass was in Latin, Hebrew, and Greek” because of the presence of a tiny handful of set words and phrases like “Amen” and “Kyrie eleison.” It’s a bit like using the phrases “carte blanche” and “Gesundheit” in conversation, and then telling people, “Oh yeah, I was just holding a conversation in English, French, and German.”
 
MarkThompson said:
I will say – and this is not particularly directed at you – that I do find it a bit precious to insist on saying “The Mass was in Latin, Hebrew, and Greek” because of the presence of a tiny handful of set words and phrases like “Amen” and “Kyrie eleison.” It’s a bit like using the phrases “carte blanche” and “Gesundheit” in conversation, and then telling people, “Oh yeah, I was just holding a conversation in English, French, and German.”
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What are you talking about? Please reread my post.

(ok, ok. I edited my post. 😃 Thanks for the correction. I had said “see above”, but how I phrased it above is better)
 
There were also indults for the EF to be celebrated in the vernacular in some places back to the time of Trent when it was mandated that the EF Missal be used by the whole Latin Church.
 
ByzCath said:
There were also indults for the EF to be celebrated in the vernacular in some places back to the time of Trent when it was mandated that the EF Missal be used by the whole Latin Church.
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Well yes, there’s the Glagolitic Missal used in parts of Dalmatia, but that’s not really “vernacular” either. It’s in Old Church Slavonic which is quite different from the local common tongue.
 
A reminder that the OF is also the Latin Mass, can be celebrated totally in Latin but celebrated commonly in some translated form.
 
MarkThompson said:
I will say – and this is not particularly directed at you – that I do find it a bit precious to insist on saying “The Mass was in Latin, Hebrew, and Greek” because of the presence of a tiny handful of set words and phrases like “Amen” and “Kyrie eleison.” It’s a bit like using the phrases “carte blanche” and “Gesundheit” in conversation, and then telling people, “Oh yeah, I was just holding a conversation in English, French, and German.”
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Not quite. The Kyrie eleison was not injected, but preserved. (Christe eleison was not sung by the Greeks, though.) It may be only a bit of a phrase, but if you think of “Agnus Dei, qui tolis peccata mundi, miserere nobis”, then I think you see the choice of language and the anchor between language and the past is vastly more than using terms like carte blanche.
 
EasterJoy said:
Not quite. The Kyrie eleison was not injected, but preserved. (Christe eleison was not sung by the Greeks, though.) It may be only a bit of a phrase, but if you think of “Agnus Dei, qui tolis peccata mundi, miserere nobis”, then I think you see the choice of language and the anchor between language and the past is vastly more than using terms like carte blanche.
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I think MarkThompson’s point still stands. Even though a court may retain the usage of a few phrases from centuries ago, one wouldn’t generally describe the court as hearing cases and conducting business in modern English and middle English.

[Legal scholars will probably correct me on this if all such language is actually early modern English, not middle English]
 
Digitonomy said:
I think MarkThompson’s point still stands. Even though a court may retain the usage of a few phrases from centuries ago, one wouldn’t generally describe the court as hearing cases and conducting business in modern English and middle English.

[Legal scholars will probably correct me on this if all such language is actually early modern English, not middle English]
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Right. I don’t want to be taken to say that the Mass is “in Greek” because of the Kyrie, but only that the Kyrie remains in the Mass as a purposeful nod to ancient practice and language, not as an accidental vestige.
 
Digitonomy said:
I think MarkThompson’s point still stands. Even though a court may retain the usage of a few phrases from centuries ago, one wouldn’t generally describe the court as hearing cases and conducting business in modern English and middle English.
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Indeed, although I recognize EasterJoy’s point – yet in fact many sources describe the Kyrie not as “retained” but, indeed, as injected into the Roman rite. The Catholic Encyclopedia says:
Its introduction into the Roman Mass has been much discussed. It is certain that the liturgy at the Rome was at one time said in Greek (to the end of the second century apparently). It is tempting to look upon our Kyrie Eleison as a surviving fragment from that time. Such, however, does not seem to be the case. Rather the form was borrowed from the East and introduced into the Latin Mass later.
[Legal scholars will probably correct me on this if all such language is actually early modern English, not middle English]
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It is mostly Latin (habeas corpus, de minimis, malum prohibitum, etc.) and mediaeval French (plaintiff, bailiff, tort, voir dire, etc.). Both are the result of the Norman Conquest.
 
MarkThompson said:
Indeed, although I recognize EasterJoy’s point – yet in fact many sources describe the Kyrie not as “retained” but, indeed, as injected into the Roman rite. The Catholic Encyclopedia says:
Its introduction into the Roman Mass has been much discussed. It is certain that the liturgy at the Rome was at one time said in Greek (to the end of the second century apparently). It is tempting to look upon our Kyrie Eleison as a surviving fragment from that time. Such, however, does not seem to be the case. Rather the form was borrowed from the East and introduced into the Latin Mass later.

It is mostly Latin (habeas corpus, de minimis, malum prohibitum, etc.) and mediaeval French (plaintiff, bailiff, tort, voir dire, etc.). Both are the result of the Norman Conquest.
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I’ll concede that there are differing accounts concerning the history, even though I am partial to the “survival” account, having learned it first. :rolleyes:
 
jasev said:
When the Mass was celebrated only in Latin, was the entire liturgy in Latin… including the readings, the homily, etc., or was it just parts of it, e.g. some hymns, the Eucharistic prayer, etc? Which parts, if any of it, were in the vernacular?

Thank you.
Click to expand...
hello,

the Latin Rite mass has always had a bit of Greek in it too:
Keirie Eilesia (spelling?), Christie Eilesia, is Greek, not Latin.

Also, Latin Rite masses have also been said Originally in Hebrew, Greek up until about the 4th century,
Latin language from the 5th - current era,
Croatian (slovene) from the 11th Century to today
and in the local bishops’ vernacular after Vatican 2

Depending on the mass type, the Latin rite may permit any of the above languages for use in a Mass.

For example:
the Trinidiene Mass must be said in Croatian or Latin, the Norvous Ordo Mass can be said in any language, but both masses contain Greek, Hebrew, or Latin depending on if certain common phrases are included during the Mass in worship or in a Gospel reading.
 
waterbender said:
the Latin Rite mass has always had a bit of Greek in it too:
Keirie Eilesia (spelling?), Christie Eilesia, is Greek, not Latin.
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Kyrie eleison
Christe eleison

Don’t feel too bad. I still can’t spell it without spell check or google.😃
 
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