Was the Protestant Reformation an act of God or an Act of men?

[guanophore]

guanophore

We mostly agree except for this point, which by the way is by me given for you to exercise your belief in how you best see it, that the foundation is not the church, the Apostles but Christ Himself.

Then we agree on this point as well… JEsus is the builder of the church. The church is built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets. Jesus gave Peter the Keys to the building.

   It is His righteousness (meaning God's) that saves my soul, not the church or the Apostles, the Pope and or priests.

The righteousness of Jesus is infused into the Church. This is how it is that the Church becomes the avenue of salvation for mankind. Jesus is not separated from His Holy Bride, the Church. He is her Head, and Her soul is the Holy Spirit. Just as He is both God and man, the Church also has Divine and human elements, hypostatically joined. The Pope and the priests, if they are faithful, are also built into the foundation like living stones.

 My main concern with anybody's beliefs here is that they exercise it with one true ingredient, and that being the love of God which, in any way they best see fit.

It is the offering of it that God wants and not under duress.

Children must have perimeters, but adults are on their own, and in where the most good can be achieved, that is if Godly principles are exercised.

We will have to disagree on this point, then. We are God’s children,a nd we do have parameters, and perimeters. We are made free in Christ, but our freedom has limits. One of those limits is to remain under the authority He has appointed over us.

 I stand on Christ alone primarily, then I honor all whom Christ died for.

That is why I can not judge another mans religion, only Judge that mans work, if it is from God, I will know it.

Blessings, AJ

Christ chose never to be “alone”. He chose to be born into a human family , and become one of a nation of Jews (chosen people). He chose apostles and disciples, and He built a Church. He was never alone, and still is not. this is one of the most blatant errors of modern evangelical thought.

 

[Sunflower15]

This is not correct. The Reformation/The Reformers were led of God to CONTINUE something that God had already begun in human history long before!

I have always been Catholic, and went to Catholic schools all the way through college, but have had many friends of all different denominations and religions.

I have never understood something you are alluding to here, and wanted to ask how is it seen from the point of view of your tradition.

If the Reformation happened roughly 1500 years later,
after the death & resurrection of Our Lord,
and after He established His Church,
AND promised He wouldn’t leave us alone,
AND sent the Holy Spirit…

Then, what happened in between?
During those 1500 yrs., did Jesus leave us alone?
Did the HS go to “sleep” or was somehow “inactive” or in a state of “suspension”…I don’t get it!

I have never had a Protestant/Reformer explain to me what their denomination teaches about this…I thought they would simply say that the Catholic Church WAS the one, but then they got “sidetracked” and so the HS switched to the “plan B” or something…but no one seems to think that…so, what is the explanation to this huge “gap”…

btw, in my humble fallible opinion, from God’s perspective, there are NO denominations or churches, just HIS CHURCH…comprising ALL who are baptized in the name of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit by water, by blood [martyrs], or by desire…the issue at hand is WHY reject/refute graces given, such as Sacraments, Priesthood, fullness of Tradition WHO compiled the Scriptures, etc…not essential for Salvation…just EXTREMELY helpful!

I always joked with my non-Catholic friends saying that they must surely be better than us because we Catholics sure wouldn’t be able to survive [much less “bloom”] without all the help we got!

 

[guanophore]

ML changed the bible, and taught and spread a different religion, different theology and philosophy than what were in the RCC.

That friend cannot be God inspired! (Mt. 16:19)

No what ever the motive (s) they were not sufficient grounds to start a “new church, a new religion” that in some teachings are actually antibiblical. OSAS, Justification Alone, rejection of many of the sacraments are a few examples.

Love and prayers,

I agree, all I am saying is that it was not Luthers’ intention to start a new religion. There is much more to the politics and economy of the Reformation than Luthers’ anti-catholic ideas. He would not even recognize Lutheranism today, in many synods, and it is not fair or correct to ascribe these latter heresies, admittedly emanating from his rebellion, to Luther himself.

It was the Latin Catholics, pandering and profiting off corruption in Europe that preciptated this atrocity. Let’s work on the log first, shall we?

 

[JonNC]

I agree, all I am saying is that it was not Luthers’ intention to start a new religion. There is much more to the politics and economy of the Reformation than Luthers’ anti-catholic ideas. He would not even recognize Lutheranism today, in many synods, and it is not fair or correct to ascribe these latter heresies, admittedly emanating from his rebellion, to Luther himself.

It was the Latin Catholics, pandering and profiting off corruption in Europe that preciptated this atrocity. Let’s work on the log first, shall we?

I really appreciate your honesty, while defending your faith. There are a forest full of logs on both sides of the reformation. The important question, at least to my way of thinking is, “what do we do about it now?” So much of what happened 500 years ago is irrelevant today.
I give thanks for Vatican II, and the era of dialogue that it brought about between our communions. Even the way our leaders talk about each other is evidence of the Holy Spirit moving us toward greater understanding and unity.

Originally Posted by PJM
OSAS, Justification Alone, rejection of many of the sacraments are a few examples.

Continuing with what I said above. First, Luther and Lutherans have never taught OSAS. It is a Calvinist derivative. On Justification: Such progress has been made. See the Joint Declaration of the Doctrine of Justification. It does not completely resolve the issue, but it could not have been even imaginable pre-Vatican II.
As for the Sacraments, our differences on the sacraments is definition of what a sacrament is, not whether or not they are important means of grace. If our two communions come together in other more dramatic differences, I think the numbering of the sacraments can be solved, as well.

Jon

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

But you need to remember, a true Protestant does not follow Luther

Never said they followed him, just that they consider him a glorious reformer. My point was with Protestants who try to re-establish a Reformation battle cry of, “us and Luther vs the Catholic Church” when, in my opinion, Luther would have been as quick to condemn most fundamentalists beliefs as he was with some Catholic beliefs. Luther’s meeting with Zwingli helps support my opinion of this.

Trying to “prove” that he still held some catholic belief, or that he had some particular fault proves absolutely nothing, except that he was human.

Actually it proves that Luther was as far away from contemporary fundamentalism as Catholics are. Which was the point of my original post.

I don’t know how you can believe half of what your church writes about him.

My opinion of Luther has been shaped predominately from two sources. One are his own writings and second are the writings of the German historian Leopold von Ranke, who was himself a devout Lutheran and wrote very highly of Luther.

Luther was a devout Christian who set a number of examples that we would all do well to pay more attention to.

Never said, never even hinted, that Luther was anything but a Christian.

God bless

 

[Sunflower15]

New American Standard Bible-

***'Dire Warnings

38(A)John said to Him, “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and (B)we tried to prevent him because he was not following us.”

39But Jesus said, "Do not hinder him, for there is no one who will perform a miracle in My name, and be able soon afterward to speak evil of Me.

40"(C)For he who is not against us is for us.’***

The Lord is Risen! Happy Easter and Pascua!

 

[Sunflower15]

I really appreciate your honesty, while defending your faith. There are a forest full of logs on both sides of the reformation. The important question, at least to my way of thinking is, “what do we do about it now?” So much of what happened 500 years ago is irrelevant today.
I give thanks for Vatican II, and the era of dialogue that it brought about between our communions. Even the way our leaders talk about each other is evidence of the Holy Spirit moving us toward greater understanding and unity.

The thing is that Lutherans and Anglicans are practically Catholic…what I mean these 2 denominations are more akin to Catholicism than they are to other Protestants…*

However, this is NOT the case with other denominations, and the more recent, the more different…[which sort of scares me a little how they can sincerely believe that they 2000 yrs later, found the "original’ Church that we have ALL somehow missed…]
*

Continuing with what I said above. First, Luther and Lutherans have never taught OSAS. It is a Calvinist derivative. On Justification: Such progress has been made. See the Joint Declaration of the Doctrine of Justification. It does not completely resolve the issue, but it could not have been even imaginable pre-Vatican II.
As for the Sacraments, our differences on the sacraments is definition of what a sacrament is, not whether or not they are important means of grace. If our two communions come together in other more dramatic differences, I think the numbering of the sacraments can be solved, as well.

Is it possible that we are looking at it from the wrong perspective? That from OUR point of view, all we see is the differences and there is NO way to reconcile all without diluting the truth.
…However, if maybe we could see things from HIS perspective…maybe the “walls” of rules and specifics become simply graces that must be available to all, but not necessarily “taken” by those who don’t want them…while belonging to the same group…HIS TEAM!

 

[JonNC]

Is it possible that we are looking at it from the wrong perspective? That from OUR point of view, all we see is the differences and there is NO way to reconcile all without diluting the truth.
…However, if maybe we could see things from HIS perspective…maybe the “walls” of rules and specifics become simply graces that must be available to all, but not necessarily “taken” by those who don’t want them…while belonging to the same group…HIS TEAM!

I think it is possible, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, to find ways to express what we believe where we agree and the faith is not diluted. Some think it is not possible, but I believe the Holy Spirit can do this, if we let him.

I have said here before that, if we continue to find it difficult at times to take each other’s hands, perhaps we should each take His hand, and allow Him to guide us to unity.

Jon

 

[PJM]

=look3467;5098410]guanophore

We mostly agree except for this point, which by the way is by me given for you to exercise your belief in how you best see it, that the foundation is not the church, the Apostles but Christ Himself.

Wrong dear friend.

It is by and through Christ in the epecific manner that God Himself say’s it is. God simply cannot lie. He set up ONE Church the Catholic Church for the specific reason od personal Salvation of all that enter Her “Narrow gate.”

Please read out-loud Mt. 16:13-20 and ask yourself what you just heard? The Keys the Kingdom of Heaven reside in the Catholic Church.

Your free to ignore it, alter it, deny it. But dear frind in Christ you cannot change it anymore that God Himself can!

is His righteousness (meaning God’s) that saves my soul, not the church or the Apostles, the Pope and or priests.

Indeed God does! BUT dear friend who empowered you to tell God that He Must Do it YOUR WAY, because God’s expressely articulated manner does nor suit you. Read the Bible friend, it’s your God trying to get through to you.

My main concern with anybody’s beliefs here is that they exercise it with one true ingredient, and that being the love of God which, in any way they best see fit.

That is very nice. But on what authority are you acting?

I

t is the offering of it that God wants and not under duress.

This comment is a bit difficult to address because the Catholic teaches that we are NOT to, MUST NOT force others to accept our Faith. Having shared that, Jesus Himself is the one you are denying and ignoring. And yes you are empowered to do that, but friend; actions do have consequences. You can God’s Words but you cannot change them.

Children must have perimeters, but adults are on their own, and in where the most good can be achieved, that is if Godly principles are exercised

Mt. 19: 17" And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments."

So friend are you saying adults can do as they please? OSAS? Where in the bible does it say that?

I stand on Christ alone primarily, then I honor all whom Christ died for.

Again AJ that is very nice. But how can you profess to hold this belief and NOT accept that Same Christ at His own Words? Where is the truth and consistanity true Word of God at work in your life?

That is why I can not judge another mans religion, only Judge that mans work, if it is from God, I will know it.

So Aj, this is from the Bible; FROM YOUR GOD, do your dear friend KNOW IT:shrug:

*Mt. 7: 15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. 18 **A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will know them by their fruits." ****

Blessings, AJ

Love and prayers dear but confussed friend!

 

[Sunflower15]

… Some think it is not possible, but I believe the Holy Spirit can do this, if we let him.

True, He can do anything! Up to and including overwhelming us with love!

I have said here before that, if we continue to find it difficult at times to take each other’s hands, perhaps we should each take His hand, and allow Him to guide us to unity.

Really nice image! :aok: I’ll meditate on that image while I pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet tomorrow morning at the Adoration Chapel…Thanks!

I sure hope you know enough Catholics so that the “outspoken” ones with the “club at hand” don’t give you the wrong impression…if anyone tried to win me over to their side with such belligerent and loud outbursts…I would probably run in the opposite direction even if I didn’t disagree with their points!..but that’s me…

 

[JonNC]

Really nice image! I’ll meditate on that image while I pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet tomorrow morning at the Adoration Chapel…Thanks!

I sure hope you know enough Catholics so that the “outspoken” ones with the “club at hand” don’t give you the wrong impression…if anyone tried to win me over to their side with such belligerent and loud outbursts…I would probably run in the opposite direction even if I didn’t disagree with their points!..but that’s me…

Thanks. Actually, I 've met some wonderful Catholics here, whose words I truly consider.

Jon

 

[look3467]

PJM

The difference is between believing that Peter is the rock of the church with the keys to heaven verses my view that Jesus is the rock of which Peter’s faith was made of.

It is by and through Christ in the specific manner that God Himself say’s it is. God simply cannot lie. He set up ONE Church the Catholic Church for the specific reason od personal Salvation of all that enter Her “Narrow gate.”>>>PJM

If the former view is correct than rightly so your view is justified.
If the latter view is correct than rightly so my view is justified.

What is common to both views? Jesus?

Then you as a Catholic honor God’s Christ within the Catholic Church organization.
Where as I, a non-Catholic honor God’s Christ within the temple of the Holy Spirit which is within me.

What did Paul say? Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Did the day matter? Or the intent of the heart matter?

Are we not brothers?

Indeed God does! BUT dear friend who empowered you to tell God that He Must Do it YOUR WAY, because God’s expressly articulated manner does nor suit you. Read the Bible friend, it’s your God trying to get through to you.>>PJM

Your first three words in that sentence is a good understanding, the rest of it, is well, a matter of choice on your part.

That is very nice. But on what authority are you acting?>>>PJM

**The second of two Commandments. **

This comment is a bit difficult to address because the Catholic teaches that we are NOT to, MUST NOT force others to accept our Faith. Having shared that, Jesus Himself is the one you are denying and ignoring. And yes you are empowered to do that, but friend; actions do have consequences. You can God’s Words but you cannot change them.>>>PJM

It is difficult if one is not free to love without restraints.
I am under one command and without any conditions, and that is to love my neighbor as an offering act of love towards God.

So friend are you saying adults can do as they please? OSAS? Where in the bible does it say that?>>>PJM

Adults are gods unto themselves, are they not? Do they have the power to choose good over evil or visa-versa?

What constrainth one to do good? Is it not God in us?

Not the church, nor the priests can constrain us from sinning, only God can.

So, if we were to take you away from the church and place you on the moon, could you still worship God? Of course, Yes, as I could to, because within us is God’s spirit no matter where we are.

OSOS? If you understand my view of salvation, I, without a doubt know I am saved from now to all eternity.

I am committed to Christ by committing my soul to Him. There is no other way.

Again AJ that is very nice. But how can you profess to hold this belief and NOT accept that Same Christ at His own Words? Where is the truth and consistanity true Word of God at work in your life?>>>PJM

The consistency is not within me to deliver my soul, but Christ’s is! And it is on His consistency that I confide and place my trust in.

Christ came to save “that which was lost” and dear brother, I consider all souls lost.
If all lost, then all must need saving, and only Jesus can save their souls of which is my primary message.

So Aj, this is from the Bible; FROM YOUR GOD, do your dear friend KNOW IT>>>PJM

Am I still a child that I need parental guidance in my spiritual affairs? Have I not grown to adult spiritual independence?
Independence, to where now I offer my allegiance to Jesus willingly out of love for Him.

Where ever I should go in this world, Jesus will always be as close as my lips can sound His name.
For out of the depths of my heart my lips speak the name of Jesus.

False prophets are warnings for children, for they are not yet fully aware of Gods wonderful grace.

Are we not both adults spiritually here?

Blessings, AJ

 

[CAS64]

Really? Where did you read that in your Bible?

Do you think the Apostles did not understand what Jesus said? And if not, do you think Jesus was incapable of making them understand?

Acts 23:11
11 The following night the Lord stood by him and said, “Take courage, for as you have testified about me at Jerusalem, so you must bear witness also at Rome.”

Who was this “non-existent” Lord that was speaking to Paul?

Rom 1:7-11
7 To all God’s beloved in Rome, who are called to be saints:

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is proclaimed in all the world. 9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I mention you always in my prayers, 10 asking that somehow by God’s will I may now at last succeed in coming to you.

How is it, do you suppose, that the Church was flourishing in Rome before Paul came there? How is it that the faith of the believers in Rome was “proclaimed in all the world”?

The Catholic Church is not “Roman”, CAS64. But the reasone that Rome became a pillar and foundation of the truth is because of the primacy of doctrine taught there by the Apostles Peter and Paul, and that Peter ordained his successor there.

No, we do not forget this. We understand that Peter was grafted into Christ. Peter’s “rockness” has been created by God’s grace. Peter being made into a foundation stone does not make Jesus less of a Rock, or the statement that Peter made any less a Rock of our faith. However, whenever God changes the name of a person (like from Simon to Cephas (Rock) He is giving that person a new identity.

I am behind on the thread, so I apologize to all if this is old news.

The point here is that the Church is built upon Christ, not man. This is the mistake I see Catholics making here. Jesus gave ALL of the Apostles the power to bind and loose. Surely Peter was special, but there is certainly no Biblical evidence that makes him infallible etc. let alone passes this on to his successors. Peter was wrong just as much as he was right and that IS Biblical.

 

[jahsoul]

The point here is that the Church is built upon Christ, not man. This is the mistake I see Catholics making here. Jesus gave ALL of the Apostles the power to bind and loose. Surely Peter was special, but there is certainly no Biblical evidence that makes him infallible etc. let alone passes this on to his successors. Peter was wrong just as much as he was right and that IS Biblical.

He wasn’t infallible…thus the rebuke from Paul. :bible1: I like this one
I always thought the pillars of the church were James, Peter, and John. Musta been wrong my whole life…

 

[PJM]

=look3467;5104423]PJM

The difference is between believing that Peter is the rock of the church with the keys to heaven verses my view that Jesus is the rock of which Peter’s faith was made of.

If the former view is correct than rightly so your view is justified.
If the latter view is correct than rightly so my view is justified.

What is common to both views? Jesus?

Agreed friend, and what EXACTLY were the Words of Jesus?

KJV: Mt. 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, [1] and upon this rock (singular “you Peter”) I will build MY- CHURCH (singular) ** ** (please note all singular!) and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. From the KJV!

Then you as a Catholic honor God’s Christ within the Catholic Church organization. Where as I, a non-Catholic honor God’s Christ within the temple of the Holy Spirit which is within me.

Very nice, I’m a fallen away RETURNED, informed and practicing RC. I can promise you that the Holy Spirit is VERY active in me, in my Church and especailly in our Seven Sacraments! Thank you very much!

Today is Mother Angelica’s 86th. Birthday. She founded EWTN, the largest Christian (and completely Catholic" Network in the entire world in 1981. Despite the secualr, un -Godly way America as a nation has gone, EWTN, The Catjolic Net Work has grown leaps and bounds, Because, YES BECAUSE the Holy Spirit is so very active in our Church!

What did Paul say? Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Did the day matter? Or the intent of the heart matter?

**God say’s it does:**D

Friend have you ever heard of God’s Commandments? Do yourself a favor and look up Jn.3:5.

Duet. 5: "12 “'Observe the sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work; 14* but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, or your manservant, or your maidservant, or your ox, or your ***, or any of your cattle, or the sojourner who is within your gates, that your manservant and your maidservant may rest as well as you”

Adults are gods unto themselves, are they not? Do they have the power to choose good over evil or visa-versa?

So our God given FreeWills make us gods? :nope: That friend is anti-Biblical!

What constrainth one to do good? Is it not God in us?

Not the church, nor the priests can constrain us from sinning, only God can.

Actually friend even God “can’t”! Why, because our Creator gifted humanity with Inrellect, mind, and freewill, to precisely and fully allow us to Know Love and serve God in this life, so that we can be happy with Him in the Next life! God cannot take back the very gifts He gives us in order to prove to Him that we Love Him.

God gives us the means and opportunity to prove that we Love Him. That friend is how we cooperate with God in working out our personal Salvation!

Prov. 8: 17 “I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.”

**Duet. 5: 8"'You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 9 you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 10 but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments. **

So, if we were to take you away from the church and place you on the moon, could you still worship God? Of course, Yes, as I could to, because within us is God’s spirit no matter where we are.

See friend, that is what is so AWESOME and UNIQUE about the Catholic Church.

We don’t have to settle for just the Spirit of God, we actually have God, Really Truely Present in Catholic Holy Communion. Not a mere sign, or symbol. REALLY and TRULY the same Jesus born of Mary, who died on the Cross, adm Rose from the dead.

Check these out!

Mt. 28:20, Mt. 26:26-28, Lk. 22:19-21, Mk. 14:22-24, 1 Cor. 11:23-26, John 6: 41-57 READ this outloud to yourself and ask yourself: self, what did you just hear from the mouth of Jesus?

** Your note about “false prophets” ** Jesus was warning Catholic Apostles and Catholic deciples to be on the lookout for them:ehh:

Blessings, AJ

God bless us Brother!

 

[Holly3278]

It most certainly was not an act of God. It was an act of men. The Protestant Reformation only brought about thousands of other Christian sects/denominations. That said, I am not saying that Catholicism is a sect or denomination.

 

[Nino]

the secular media likes to taunt us by shrieking after a storm."an act of god has just destroyed this town etc’ not quite…nature is nature and by its fruits yee shall know them…no the reformation or revolution was an act of the wealthy ruling class.they wanted church lands and wealth (down thru the centuries artists,kings and queens ,sliver smiths etc donated their precious gifts to the church…as well as land…by using Luther they caused the uprising and confiscated the wealth from the churchs,monasteries etc…when the locals returned to the new national church they found it bare…told it was all sent back to Rome we dont need no stinking gold and silver and this and that…yeh sure.and thats how many of the weatlhy ruling class plundered the church so in answer to the above…it was an act of greedy men…thats why when some 20,000 peasants were slaughtered by the new establishement in germany Luther said good serves em right…nice guy…no wonder this became the land of HItler and the ovens…

 

[ralphinal]

He wasn’t infallible…thus the rebuke from Paul. :bible1: I like this one
I always thought the pillars of the church were James, Peter, and John. Musta been wrong my whole life…

Infallible does not mean perfect. It means when teaching matters of faith and morals, in his official role as pope, he cannot teach error. Paul is rebuking him for an action that he committed AFTER saying that it was wrong.

 

[ufamtobie]

Was this a serious or rhetorical question, or just another chance to remind Protestants how wrong they are?

Hi there Reteeks,

Rhetorical question? The Truth can never be rhetorical, unless one is afraid of hearing the truth over and over again.

Another chance to remind Protestants how wrong they are? DAH! We are are brothers keeper.

Yes, it is serious, I just want people who are protestants or “people” who are stuck b/w Protestanism and Catholism, to once and for all come back home to the Catholic Church.

It is the work of the Holy Spirit that has you here at CAF, and why is that? In order for you to become Catholic, I mean why else are the protestants here, but to know the truth and come back home, for no where else can you find the best meal of the day that brings salvation, the Eucharist.

The best nourishment is always found at home. Like the saying goes: “there is no better food and drink than the one served at home.” Anywhere else, it is only symbolic, but at Home/Catholic Church (John 6: 55) For my flesh is real food and my blood real drink.

Ufamtobie

 

[ufamtobie]

You know, I still believe Luther was guided by the Holy Spirit to try to fix some of the scandals of the Church at the time. Unfortunately, local politics and his own human nature got in the way and instead we had the “reformation” and Christianity in the west was divided.

The biggest problem came when decided that Church doctrine

Jabornie,

You believe that Martin Luther was guided by the Holy Spirit? Let me tell you the Holy Spirit does not make mistakes, if you believe that Martin Luther, was gudied by the Holy Spirit to fix the Church, then you also must believe that the Holy Spirit was partly the Cause of Christianity being devided? The Holy Spirit does not know how to make a mistake.

Ufamtobie