Was the Protestant Reformation, in a sense, good?

[Duane1966]

Continued…

Pope Leo XIII*(1878-1903 AD)Providentissimus Deus: Encyclical Of Pope Leo XIII On The Study Of Holy Scripture“ …* advancing the glory of God and contributing to the salvation of souls, have for a long time cherished the desire to give an impulse to the noble science of Holy Scripture, and to impart to Scripture study a direction suitable to the needs of the present day. The solicitude of the apostolic office naturally urges and even compels us, not only to desire that this grand source of Catholic revelation should be made safely and abundantly accessible to the flock of Jesus Christ, but also not to suffer any attempt to defile or corrupt it”“… For sacred Scripture is not like other books. Dictated by the Holy Ghost, it contains things of the deepest importance, which in many instances are most difficult and obscure. To understand and explain such things there is always required the ‘coming’ of the same Holy Ghost; that is to say, His light and His grace…It is absolutely wrong and forbidden either to narrow inspiration to certain parts only of holy Scripture or to admit that the sacred writer has erred… and so far is it from being possible that any error can co-exist with inspiration, that inspiration is not only essentially incompatible with error, but excludes and rejects it as absolutely and necessarily as it is impossible that God Himself, the supreme Truth, can utter that which is not true.”“(By reading the Scriptures) the intelligence which is once admitted to these sacred studies, and thereby illuminated and strengthened … and … at the same time the heart will grow warm, and will strive with ardent longing to advance in virtue and in divine love. ‘Blessed are they who examine His testimonies; they shall seek Him with their whole heart.’ ” (Psalm 119:2)[Providentissimus Deusat the Vatican Website. ( Nov. 18, 1893)]Note:“Holy Ghost”* is an older English translation from the Latin for “Holy Spirit”* which is* “Spiritūs Sancti.”*

Pope Leo XIII*(1898 AD)*“*An indulgence of 300 days for reading the Holy Gospels is granted to all the Faithful who read these Holy Scriptures for at least a quarter of an hour, with reverence due to the Divine Word and as spiritual reading…. A Plenary indulgence under the usual conditions is granted once a month for the daily reading.”***Pope Leo XIII. December, 1898,Preces et Pia Opera, 045.(Enchiridion Indulgentiarium,694).

Pope St. Pius X*(1903-1914 AD)“Nothing would please us more than to see our beloved children form the habit of reading the Gospels - not merely from time to time, but every day.”

Catechism of Pope Saint Pius X:**

28 Q: Is the reading of the Bible necessary to all Christians?**** A: The reading of the Bible is not necessary to all Christians since they are instructed by the Church; however its reading is very useful and recommended to all.**

29Q: May any translation of the Bible, in the vernacular, be read?****
A: We can read those translations of the Bible in the vernacular which have been acknowledged as faithful by the Catholic Church and which have explanations also approved by the Church.*

30 Q: Why may we only read translations of the Bible approved by the Church?****
A: We may only read translations of the Bible approved by the Church because she alone is the lawful guardian of the Bible.

3Q: Through which means can we know the true meaning of the Holy Scripture?***
A: We can only know the true meaning of Holy Scripture through the Church’s interpretation, because she alone is secure against error in that interpretation.—Catechism of Pope Saint Pius X: AD 1908,* On the Virtues and Vices:*

On Holy ScripturePope Benedict XV** (1914-1922 AD)“Our one desire for all the Church’s children is that, being saturated with the Bible, they may arrive at the all surpassing knowledge of Jesus Christ.”15 September AD 1920
He repeated St. Jerome’s statement:“Ignorance of Scriptures is ignorance of Christ.”
*
Pope Pius XII 1943 AD“Our predecessors, when the opportunity occurred, recommended the study or preaching or in fine the pious reading and meditation of the sacred Scriptures.“… This author of salvation, Christ, will men more fully know, more ardently love and more faithfully imitate in proportion as they are more assiduously urged to know and meditate the Sacred Letters, especially the New Testament …”[Divino Afflante Spiritu]He also granted indulgences (a blessing of God’s grace) to those who read Scripture. (1 Cor. 4:1.)* *

I can produce more.

---

I live in Europe, and I don’t need any post. People here were NOT ALLOWED to read the bible! Definitely not in the 1950’s and 60’s. I cannot remember when persons were allowed to read it, but it was pretty recently.

GG

Were you Catholic then? If so you would have first-hand experience. But…surely you can back up what you have stated with an official document from the Catholic Church showing what you have stated.

 

[guanophore]

Continued…

I can produce more.

---

Were you Catholic then? If so you would have first-hand experience. But…surely you can back up what you have stated with an official document from the Catholic Church showing what you have stated.

Great job Duane. I am going to save these to a file.

I am not sure about the “not allowed”, but it may be the same kind of misinformation and abuse that led people to believe they could buy or sell an indulgence.

 

[Duane1966]

Great job Duane. I am going to save these to a file.

I am not sure about the “not allowed”, but it may be the same kind of misinformation and abuse that led people to believe they could buy or sell an indulgence.

 

[GodsGrace154]

I think you do need to confirm that people were not allowed to read the Bible in the 1800s and 1900s. Whether that be a popular position among lay people that lay people don’t read the Bible or an imposition by Pope’s or Bishops. That’s a big claim.

The local churches didn’t allow it. I would have to assume that the directive came from the Bishop → Rome.

What I AM going to find out is what would have happened if someone DID want to read it.

Straight to the source. One of the older priests here.

I did try quickly to find something in writing on the net, but couldn’t.

Will post again.

GG

 

[guanophore]

The local churches didn’t allow it. I would have to assume that the directive came from the Bishop → Rome.

What I AM going to find out is what would have happened if someone DID want to read it.

Straight to the source. One of the older priests here.

I did try quickly to find something in writing on the net, but couldn’t.

Will post again.

GG

Thanks for doing that, I am very curious about it.

 

[StudentMI]

The local churches didn’t allow it. I would have to assume that the directive came from the Bishop → Rome.

What I AM going to find out is what would have happened if someone DID want to read it.

Straight to the source. One of the older priests here.

I did try quickly to find something in writing on the net, but couldn’t.

Will post again.

GG

With due respect to the priests of those days, local parishes back then didn’t always do everything correctly. Just like today.

 

[GodsGrace154]

I think you do need to confirm that people were not allowed to read the Bible in the 1800s and 1900s. Whether that be a popular position among lay people that lay people don’t read the Bible or an imposition by Pope’s or Bishops. That’s a big claim.

My goodness. I can’t believe the response to this. I do understand that you can’t take my word for this, but how to prove it?

I found some discourse on this but it’s in Italian. I’ll post it anyway. Maybe the states wasn’t too interested in this??

Perché la chiesa fino al secolo scorso proibiva di leggere la bibbia?
Nel 1557 il Sant’Uffizio pubblicò per ordine di Paolo IV
il primo ufficiale Indice dei libri proibiti ai fedeli, in quanto considerati dannosi al loro
credo e alla morale.

Al Concilio di Trento segui la creazione della Congregazione dell’Indice, che ordinò di bruciare i volumi condannati dalle autorità ecclesiastiche… tra questi c’era anche la Bibbia.

Questa enciclica fu dai vescovi cattolici irlandesi trasmessa al clero, accompagnata con una lettera della quale cito il seguente estratto: « Il nostro Santo Padre raccomanda all’osservanza dei fedeli una regola della Congregazione dell’indice che proibisce la lettura delle Sacre Scritture nella lingua volgare senza il permesso delle autorità, competenti.

Sua Santità osserva saggiamente che, a causa della malvagità e debolezza degli uomini, la lettura indiscriminata di tali testi procura più male che bene… Quindi, fratelli carissimi, tali libri sono stati e saranno sempre odiati dalla Chiesa Cattolica; questa è la ragione per cui essa ha frequentemente ordinato che siano dati alle fiamme ».

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

There’s more but this won’t work…
Tomorrow.

GG

 

[susanlo]

The publisher of the Catholic Koberger Vulgate Bible(1477 AD)“The Holy Scriptures excel all the learning of the world . . . All believers should watch zealously and exert themselves unremittingly to understand the contents of these most useful and exalted writings, and to retain them in the memory. Holy Scripture is that beautiful garden of Paradise in which the leaves of the commandments grow green, the branches of evangelical counsel sprout . . .”

The publisher of the Catholic Cologne [German] Bible(1480 AD)*writes:“All Christians should read the Bible with piety and reverence, praying the Holy Ghost, who is the inspirer of the Scriptures, to enable them to understand . . . The learned should make use of the Latin translation of St. Jerome; but the unlearned and simple folk, whether laymen or clergy . . . should read the German translations now supplied, and thus arm themselves against the enemy of our salvation.”See :Catholic German Language Bibles Before Martin Luther

Were these publishers Bishops or part of the church? Or were they private entities? After the Council of Trent they needed to get written permission to keep these Bibles? When did people no longer need written permission?

 

[GodsGrace154]

Were these publishers Bishops or part of the church? Or were they private entities? After the Council of Trent they needed to get written permission to keep these Bibles? When did people no longer need written permission?

What I posted (unfortunately in Italian) it does say that permission is needed if one wants to own a bible.

Just confirming what you’re saying.

GG

 

[susanlo]

See: catholicbridge.com/catholic/d…le_reading.php
This section was researched by Art Sippo, Fr. Terry Donahue, CC and Mark Bonocore.
“The Bible was on scrolls and parchments during the early centuries of Christianity. No one had a “Bible”. Even into the Middle Ages, each Bible was written by hand. Most people were, at best, only functionally literate. That is partially why they used stained glass windows and art to tell the Bible story. The printing press was not invented until 1436 by Johann Gutenberg. Note: The Gutenberg Bible, like every Bible before it, contained the Deuterocanonical books - the “extra” books as they are called in Evangelical circles.

“So prior to 1436, the idea of everybody having a Bible was out of the question, even if they could read. Yeah, I know it’s hard to imagine a world without photocopiers, printing presses, email and websites…

**“After the invention of the printing press, prior to Luther’s Bible being published in German, there had been over 20 versions of the whole Bible translated into the various German dialects (High and Low) by Catholics. Similarly, there were several vernacular versions of the Bible published in other languages both before and after the Reformation. **The Church did condemn certain vernacular translations because of what it felt were bad translations and anti-Catholic notes (vernacular means native to a region or country).

“The Catholic Douay-Rheims version of the whole Bible in English was translated from the Latin Vulgate. It was completed in 1610, one year before the King James Version was published. The New Testament had been published in 1582 and was one of the sources used by the KJV translators. The Old Testament was completed in 1610." [My emphases].

Were the Scriptures read to them at their church in their native language regularly?
They clearly wouldn’t have had Bibles, but in Jesus time many of the Jewish men had memorized many books of the Bible. If I remember correctly early Christians were persecuted for owning certain copies of Scripture. Being knowledgeable about Scripture was there in Christianity at one time, but this access to Scripture seemed to fade away for awhile.

 

[susanlo]

What I posted (unfortunately in Italian) it does say that permission is needed if one wants to own a bible.

Just confirming what you’re saying.

GG

So they never rescinded the written permission for owning Scripture? Is it just not practiced in most places?

 

[Duane1966]

So they never rescinded the written permission for owning Scripture? Is it just not practiced in most places?

Answered why written permission was needed in post # 88.

 

[susanlo]

Answered why written permission was needed in post # 88.

So was it given as a temporary command to end when? My Catholic friends don’t have written permission to own a Bible today. When did that change?

 

[HelenRose]

Yes, Protestantism did bring a lot of bad. It created multiple heretical theology’s. It divided Christianity into an uncountable number of sects. It started some wars between Catholics and Protestants and even among Protestants themselves due to so much division. But, did it also have some good effects?

Many say the Protestant reformation led to the enlightenment and help people open their minds more to new ideas. Although, this too brought some bad (Atheism, French Revolution, Napoleon) it brought much good with it. America was founded upon enlightenment ideas. These ideas include things such as separation of Church and state, freedom to practice any religion, freedom of speech, etc. In fact, Protestantism itself kind of forced certain country’s before the enlightenment took off to start allowing for religious freedom or at least limited forms of it.

Protestantism also brought attention to many of the abuses within the Church. Abuses such as the selling of Indulgences were finally stopped.

So, was Protestantism in a way kind of good? Does the good out weigh the bad or does the bad out weigh the good? Also, please do not misunderstand. I do not in anyway shape or form want to become Protestant. I love the Catholic faith and hope to practice it until the day I die. I accept all teachings put forward by the Catholic Church and do not see myself rejecting the Church any time soon.

It is hard to second guess history because we can not know what would the outcome had been otherwise.

 

[Duane1966]

Were these publishers Bishops or part of the church? Or were they private entities? After the Council of Trent they needed to get written permission to keep these Bibles? When did people no longer need written permission?

The publishers did not need written permission to sell the bibles, but to buy one you did need written permission. Trent never discussed written permission. During a recess of Trent, Pope Paul IV issued a papal bull, which is where the need for written permission came in.

Accordingly, some months later, on March 24, 1564, Paul IV published the bull Dominici gregis custodias, which set down ten rules basic to the Index. Its fourth rule describes the method which is to be followed where there is question of the Bible in the vernacular:

We have learned by experience that if the sacred books, translated into the
vernacular, are indiscriminantly circulated, there follows because of the weakness
of man more harm than good. In this matter the judgment of the bishop or the
inquisitor must be sought, who on the advice of the pastor or the confessor may
permit the reading of a Bible translated into the vernacular by Catholic authors.
This may be done with the understanding that from this reading no harm, but an
increase of faith and piety, results. The permission must be in writing. But he who …

 

[Duane1966]

Were the Scriptures read to them at their church in their native language regularly?
They clearly wouldn’t have had Bibles, but in Jesus time many of the Jewish men had memorized many books of the Bible. If I remember correctly early Christians were persecuted for owning certain copies of Scripture. Being knowledgeable about Scripture was there in Christianity at one time, but this access to Scripture seemed to fade away for awhile.

Yes, because the Roman Empire came to an end in the West.

 

[Duane1966]

So was it given as a temporary command to end when? My Catholic friends don’t have written permission to own a Bible today. When did that change?

To my knowledge it has never been officially rescinded, but has fallen by the wayside.

 

[Abu]

Susanlo #109
Were the Scriptures read to them at their church in their native language regularly?

As the Catholic Holy Sacrifice of the Mass was instituted by Christ in His Church at the Last Supper, you can see in Acts 20:7 how on Sundays they came together to “break bread”, and Paul preached.

St Justin Martyr’s “Defence of Christians” (150 A.D.) “declares the Eucharistic Rite to consist of Scripture readings, sermon, consecration of the Eucharistic elements, communion, and prayers of thanksgiving….It went back to the Apostles.” Questions People Ask, Dr Leslie Rumble M.S.C., S.T.D., Chevalier Books, 1975, p 213-4].

Only the Catholic Church was founded by Christ, no other. She gave us the Sacred Scriptures as the Word of God.

 

[GodsGrace154]

So they never rescinded the written permission for owning Scripture? Is it just not practiced in most places?

No. Wait.

NOW one is free to own a bible. In fact churches here have bible study. I was referring to PRE 1950’s and maybe 1960’s -not sure about this.

Will find out today.

GG

 

[josie_L]

My goodness. I can’t believe the response to this. I do understand that you can’t take my word for this, but how to prove it?

I found some discourse on this but it’s in Italian. I’ll post it anyway. Maybe the states wasn’t too interested in this??

And where in this discourse does it state that the Bible was prohibited to be read in the 50’s and 60’s, moreover, the piece below reads like something I would find from a Jehovah’s Witness site, i.e., it is a deliberate distortion of Church history. In fact, would you mind posting the website wherein you got this quote?

Perché la chiesa fino al secolo scorso proibiva di leggere la bibbia?
Nel 1557 il Sant’Uffizio pubblicò per ordine di Paolo IV
il primo ufficiale Indice dei libri proibiti ai fedeli, in quanto considerati dannosi al loro
credo e alla morale.

And wouldn’t 1557 be the time that the Council of Trent stated that any mistranslations of the Bible would be prohibited?

Al Concilio di Trento segui la creazione della Congregazione dell’Indice, che ordinò di bruciare i volumi condannati dalle autorità ecclesiastiche… tra questi c’era anche la Bibbia.

That would be in reference only to mistranslated versions of the Bible, not the official Latin Vulgate Bible, moreover, how could the Catholic Church condemn burning Bibles, when Scripture was a vital part of our faith, i.e., mass consists of readings from the Bible?

Questa enciclica fu dai vescovi cattolici irlandesi trasmessa al clero, accompagnata con una lettera della quale cito il seguente estratto: « Il nostro Santo Padre raccomanda all’osservanza dei fedeli una regola della Congregazione dell’indice che proibisce la lettura delle Sacre Scritture nella lingua volgare senza il permesso delle autorità, competenti.

All this says is that the Pope prohibits any translations of Sacred Scripture in the vernacular without permission from competent authorities. I would assume by competent authority they meant the authorities in Rome or the “Congregazione dell’indice”.

Sua Santità osserva saggiamente che, a causa della malvagità e debolezza degli uomini, la lettura indiscriminata di tali testi procura più male che bene… Quindi, fratelli carissimi, tali libri sono stati e saranno sempre odiati dalla Chiesa Cattolica; questa è la ragione per cui essa ha frequentemente ordinato che siano dati alle fiamme ».

For whoever wrote this to suggest that the Catholic Church condemned the Bible to the Index Librorum Prohibitorum has got to be one stupid fellow or is being deliberately distortive. The Catholic Church has never nor will ever hate the Bible as this person is implying.

What you have posted is nothing more than propaganda, and I’m willing to bet that this quote was taken from an anti-Catholic website (even if you don’t realize it was).