Was the Reformation demonic?

[TxGodfollower]

Was the Reformation led by the Devil? Since it was a departure from the truth, it could be said it was. But, Protestants are still bringing people into the knowledge of Jesus and salvation so it is not entirely clear how to classify it.

I personally find the way this is worded highly offensive. We are supposed to live as Christ did, and calling our somewhat misguided brothers and sisters essentially devil followers in a blanket statement like that is astonishing to me. You are all but accusing some 2 billion people (both living and dead) that are Protestant of their faith being started by Satan. I wouldn’t tolerate someone making the claim here (or elsewhere) that the Catholic Church was started by Satan; I would appreciate if you showed the same grace.

As some one who loves our Catholic faith and Holy Mother Church I am uncomfortable with this question. It is important to note that at the time of the Protestand Reformation our church was in need of renewal. There were a lot of things that were being done in the name of our church that was wrong.
I do not believe for one moment that the Protestant Reformation was led by the devil. When King Henry VIII had decided that he was going to split from the Roman Catholic Church he went to one of his most trusted advisors, Thomas Moore, and presented the case that that there needed to be a “reform”. St. Thomas Aquinas stated that in his view there was no need for a “reform” but that there was a new for “renewal” within the church.
In response to the Protestant Reformation there were two positive devlopments. They were the Council of Trent and the Counter Reformation. The Council of Trent was the impetus for “renewal” in our church. As a loyal son of Holy Mother Church I personally am grateful for the Protestant Reformation. Without the Protestand Reformation I don’t believe there would have been a Council of Trent.
Lastly, I live in the Bible Belt South. It is exciting to live in the Dioces of Charlotte for the Catholic Church is flourishing and has grown strong. The Catholic Church is the largest Christian Denomination in Mecklenburg County. That being said I have nothing but respect for Evangical Christians. They are both good people and good Christians.

Thank you, wllmjoseph.

Yes, just go and read the writings of the “reformers” Calvin and Luther and see how demonic their theology was. Read the vitriol they spew at “rome” and compare it to the charitable and loving words expressed by the Catholic writers of the counter reformation, so desirous to keep unity in Christ’s church and to draw wayward sons home. Go compare St. Francis de Sales to the writings of John Calvin, you can see which one was influenced by the devil. The devil splits up, that’s what “diabolical” means. Protestantism has split up the church into 100+ denominations all claiming that they get the bible right. This is the result of the heretical principle of sola scriptra. And you can also include the other ideologies spawned by this demonic revolt against Christ and his Church: individualism, rationalism, rejection of authority. The protestant rejection of faith guided by reason for fideism eventually led people to reject faith all together. All this resulted in the modern wars, totalitarian states and all the carnage of the 19th and 20th centuries.

There were hateful writers on both sides. And saying that all the carnage for 200 years was solely based on the Protestant Reformation is a vast exaggeration. Not every conflict stems from religion.

While yes those actions were bad and he pointed them out, that did not give him the excuse to become a heretic and tell people you can be saved by faith alone. He brought people away from the one true Church by initiating a new religion.

Luther was dealing with a church that was preaching a very distorted message. His reaction is only natural. When you find out someone lied to you about 1 thing, you question everything else they taught you.

It doesn’t sound as though his initial goal was to take people away from being Catholic. Indeed, it looks as though he was trying to help the Church get back to more ethical, moral ground and make it better for the people. I admire him for that.

I don’t think Protestants are bringing people into the knowledge of Jesus because of the Protestant Revolution, it’s just because there are good people among them. I don’t think the Protestant Revolution increased the quantity of people being saved. The Church had just discovered the Americas when Martin Luther started the revolt, so missionaries and evangelization were on the increase. We have reason to believe that a lot more people would have entered a saving relationship with God without Luther’s revolt than with it, so I think the revolt was basically entirely a work of sin (on both sides).

Interesting theory. However, look at it this way. Catholicism and Protestantism are both out to spread their view of the Gospel. Theres a large area of unreached people. The result is similar to the space race. Now, the effect today probably isn’t much, but there could be thousands of people in heaven because of this race.

 

[cisco_1]

As some one who loves our Catholic faith and Holy Mother Church I am uncomfortable with this question. It is important to note that at the time of the Protestand Reformation our church was in need of renewal. There were a lot of things that were being done in the name of our church that was wrong.
I do not believe for one moment that the Protestant Reformation was led by the devil. When King Henry VIII had decided that he was going to split from the Roman Catholic Church he went to one of his most trusted advisors, Thomas Moore, and presented the case that that there needed to be a “reform”. St. Thomas Aquinas stated that in his view there was no need for a “reform” but that there was a new for “renewal” within the church.
In response to the Protestant Reformation there were two positive devlopments. They were the Council of Trent and the Counter Reformation. The Council of Trent was the impetus for “renewal” in our church. As a loyal son of Holy Mother Church I personally am grateful for the Protestant Reformation. Without the Protestand Reformation I don’t believe there would have been a Council of Trent.
Lastly, I live in the Bible Belt South. It is exciting to live in the Dioces of Charlotte for the Catholic Church is flourishing and has grown strong. The Catholic Church is the largest Christian Denomination in Mecklenburg County. That being said I have nothing but respect for Evangical Christians. They are both good people and good Christians.

I agree allot with this.

 

[cena]

Well, yes, it does actually.
If his beliefs were contrary to what the Church was doing or teaching, this automatically makes him a heretic. It’s not an “excuse”, it just is.
I guess we might say that all the Catholics today who use birth control or have same-sex marriages, etc, are heretics, as per the definition of the word.

It doesn’t sound as though his initial goal was to take people away from being Catholic. Indeed, it looks as though he was trying to help the Church get back to more ethical, moral ground and make it better for the people. I admire him for that.

.

We’re what some of those churches doing wrong? Yes, simony is a grave sin. Pointing that out is fine. What isn’t fine is all the ideas he preached about afterwards. Ideas like sola scriptoria, the only mortal sin is apostasy, etc.
He refused to acknowledge ideas like authority of the Magisterium and papal authority.
catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=7260

Birth control, same sex “marriage”, etc. are part of Modernism a heresy condemned by popes like Pius IX and Pius X.

 

[cena]

As some one who loves our Catholic faith and Holy Mother Church I am uncomfortable with this question. It is important to note that at the time of the Protestand Reformation our church was in need of renewal. There were a lot of things that were being done in the name of our church that was wrong.
I do not believe for one moment that the Protestant Reformation was led by the devil. When King Henry VIII had decided that he was going to split from the Roman Catholic Church he went to one of his most trusted advisors, Thomas Moore, and presented the case that that there needed to be a “reform”. St. Thomas Aquinas stated that in his view there was no need for a “reform” but that there was a new for “renewal” within the church.
In response to the Protestant Reformation there were two positive devlopments. They were the Council of Trent and the Counter Reformation. The Council of Trent was the impetus for “renewal” in our church. As a loyal son of Holy Mother Church I personally am grateful for the Protestant Reformation. Without the Protestand Reformation I don’t believe there would have been a Council of Trent.
Lastly, I live in the Bible Belt South. It is exciting to live in the Dioces of Charlotte for the Catholic Church is flourishing and has grown strong. The Catholic Church is the largest Christian Denomination in Mecklenburg County. That being said I have nothing but respect for Evangical Christians. They are both good people and good Christians.

Didn’t the pope call Henry VIII a “defender of faith” because he agreed Luther was a heretic and disagreed with him? And didn’t he schism from the Church because the pope would not give him a divorce?

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=7653

 

[Jason_Firestone]

No.
The Reformation seems to have been a natural result from the the public’s new ability to read the Christian canon on their own.
The bible had only become available to most of the public a few decades earlier, thanks to the printing press.
People were finally able to read it en masse and that, of course, lead to questions and debates and disagreements…and led to Catholic priest and theology professor Martin Luther’s nailing the list to the church door.

And Luther nailed that list to the door for very good reason, most would agree. Reasons we would applaud today.
Some of what he saw the Church leaders doing, like the selling of indulgences, was very wrong to do. Can you imagine that going on today?
I suppose, in a way, he can be thanked for exposing and stopping such unfair practices within the Church.
I find it very difficult to walk into Saint Peter’s Basilica knowing how the money was raised.

.

COUNCIL OF TOULOUSE - 1229 A.D.

The Council of Toulouse, which met in November of 1229, about the time of the crusade against the Albigensians, set up a special ecclesiastical tribunal, or court, known as the Inquisition (Lat. inquisitio, an inquiry), to search out and try heretics. Twenty of the forty-five articles decreed by the Council dealt with heretics and heresy. It ruled in part:

Canon 1. We appoint, therefore, that the archbishops and bishops shall swear in one priest, and two or three laymen of good report, or more if they think fit, in every parish, both in and out of cities, who shall diligently, faithfully, and frequently seek out the heretics in those parishes, by searching all houses and subterranean chambers which lie under suspicion. And looking out for appendages or outbuildings, in the roofs themselves, or any other kind of hiding places, all which we direct to be destroyed.

Canon 6. Directs that the house in which any heretic shall be found shall be destroyed.

Canon 14. We prohibit also that the laity should be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; unless anyone from motive of devotion should wish to have the Psalter or the Breviary for divine offices or the hours of the blessed Virgin; but we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books.

 

[Jubilarian]

Your question is rather unfortunate and mis-stated. One cannot go back in time and start calling the original reformers led by the devil. You really ought to think about your question and how it will sound to a Protestant looking into the Catholic church. If I read that in the beginning of looking, I would have turned away. This is an offensive question. Yes it was a departure of truth but the better way is not to start calling the reformation demonic which implies those behind it demonic.

You are quite a sensitive individual. It is “unfortunate” that deeply probing questions offend you. Yes we can go back in time an analyze things, its done all the time. I suspect many Catholics during the reformation were not looking at the acts occurring before them as “of God”, but I’m not enough of a historian to know.

I was aware of how the question may appear to Protestants, but it is not much different then then questions asked of Catholics by Protestants. The frequent implications by many Protestant denominations that the Catholic Church is the “whore of Babylon” is quite distressing but we should not run from addressing it.

My question may appearing offensive to you because it is rarely or ever asked, whereas such questions about the Catholic Church and the devil are.

 

[Jubilarian]

I personally find the way this is worded highly offensive. We are supposed to live as Christ did, and calling our somewhat misguided brothers and sisters essentially devil followers in a blanket statement like that is astonishing to me. You are all but accusing some 2 billion people (both living and dead) that are Protestant of their faith being started by Satan. I wouldn’t tolerate someone making the claim here (or elsewhere) that the Catholic Church was started by Satan; I would appreciate if you showed the same grace.

Thank you, wllmjoseph.

I have found repeated questions that the Catholic Church is under the influence of the devil offensive. In fact such implications have occurred for ages. Here in NY, certain Protestant radio stations paint the church in a demonic way.

I simply asked a question about Protestantism that has been asked in a similar way of the Catholic Church. Maybe you could tell Protestants that rail against Catholicism to “live as Christ did”. Yes my question is a tough one, but I’ve been answering the same claim by Protestants for quite some time.

There were hateful writers on both sides. And saying that all the carnage for 200 years was solely based on the Protestant Reformation is a vast exaggeration. Not every conflict stems from religion.

Luther was dealing with a church that was preaching a very distorted message. His reaction is only natural. When you find out someone lied to you about 1 thing, you question everything else they taught you.

Interesting theory. However, look at it this way. Catholicism and Protestantism are both out to spread their view of the Gospel. Theres a large area of unreached people. The result is similar to the space race. Now, the effect today probably isn’t much, but there could be thousands of people in heaven because of this race.

 

[Jubilarian]

I personally find the way this is worded highly offensive. We are supposed to live as Christ did, and calling our somewhat misguided brothers and sisters essentially devil followers in a blanket statement like that is astonishing to me. You are all but accusing some 2 billion people (both living and dead) that are Protestant of their faith being started by Satan. I wouldn’t tolerate someone making the claim here (or elsewhere) that the Catholic Church was started by Satan; I would appreciate if you showed the same grace.

Thank you, wllmjoseph.

I have found repeated questions that the Catholic Church is under the influence of the devil offensive. In fact such implications have occurred for ages. Here in NY, certain Protestant radio stations paint the church in a demonic way.

I simply asked a question about Protestantism that has been asked in a similar way of the Catholic Church. Maybe you could tell Protestants that rail against Catholicism to “live as Christ did”. Yes my question is a tough one, but I’ve been answering the same claim by Protestants for quite some time.

 

[JSSD]

For the most part, great post!

As a protestant convert myself, I would also encourage to focus on those things that are common between us than those that divide us.

I simply asked a question about Protestantism that has been asked in a similar way of the Catholic Church. Maybe you could tell Protestants that rail against Catholicism to “live as Christ did”. Yes my question is a tough one, but I’ve been answering the same claim by Protestants for quite some time.

Is it helping?
Honestly, I didn’t think it was a tough question, but almost an absurd one to ask about the reformation with no acknowledgment to the counter-reformation. Insulting because you feel insulted probably isn’t the best method of fishing.

 

[Jubilarian]

For the most part, great post!

As a protestant convert myself, I would also encourage to focus on those things that are common between us than those that divide us.

Is it helping?
Honestly, I didn’t think it was a tough question, but almost an absurd one to ask about the reformation with no acknowledgment to the counter-reformation. Insulting because you feel insulted probably isn’t the best method of fishing.

“Helping” according to who? You?

Is it absurd to ask or answer questions about the Catholic Church as being the “whore of Babylon” or the many other “evil” acts they supposedly commit?

You need to understand that my question is a legitimate one, and is wasn’t asked just because Catholics get pressed on the same issue. I only brought that point up because you write as if Protestant history is off limits compared to Catholic history. If something like Catholic doctrine that existed for centuries is usurped, the question of whether demonic activity has occurred is an important one.

 

[Elizium23]

Let’s say you have Stage 4 Pancreatic Cancer that has metastasized and you go to the doctor for a diagnosis. This is a very sensitive doctor and he loves you very much and he doesn’t want to hurt your feelings. Does this doctor tell you “oh, you only have a small head cold, you are going to be fine!” and he sends you home with two Ibuprofen tablets?

I am not saying that we need to confront every Protestant and shriek that they are demon-possessed (because they aren’t) and tell them they need exorcisms (because they don’t). The OP asked a specific question: “Was the Reformation demonic?” The Reformation happened a long time ago. Nobody who participated in the Reformation is still alive. That is why we do not refer to Protestants as “schismatics” or “heretics”, because those are sins their ancestors committed and left as a legacy for those born innocent. Yes, Protestants are born innocent. And most remain vincibly ignorant into their adult lives. Those who are vincibly ignorant, we can deal with in love and charity. We invite them to come to the Catholic Church. We share the fullness of Truth. “You catch more flies with honey than vinegar”, it is said, and it is true - everyone enjoys hearing about the love of God and the charity of the saints and the Blessed Virgin Mary’s faithfulness.

Back to the doctor analogy: the doctor I described is a bad doctor, I think that everyone will agree. Why? Because he lied, he soft-pedaled, he committed malpractice. What does a good doctor do? Well, that depends on the venue, doesn’t it? If he is speaking to a patient, he will bring a box of tissues, he will invite the patient to sit down in a comfortable, private place, he will speak softly and gently, he will tell the truth to the patient, he will have the time to explain it all at length, and he will entertain all of the patient’s most desperate questions, even after the patient has left the office. A good doctor shows compassion.

However, this same doctor writes for a medical journal. In the medical journal he uses technical jargon, he states his case succinctly and forcefully, he backs it up with evidence from many sources, he defends his thesis against objections and new findings. Is this the same doctor? How can we possibly call this guy a gentle, loving doctor? He’s so clinical and cold! Well, he’s writing for a different audience here. He’s not speaking to a patient. He’s on a soapbox, he’s thinking, “publish or perish”. This journal article means the difference to him between career advancement and early retirement. So if this doctor is not wrong to write like this, what in the world is wrong with people in a Moral Theology forum stating our case succinctly and forcefully, while backing it up with evidence from solid sources? I can promise you that I don’t speak like this to converts or children or those who have lost their faith. And I have spoken to many of them. I don’t worship the Church or her documents or her clergy - I respect them, and as for the documents, I use them to the proper end of proving a point. I might go out next week and proclaim the same point without a shred of evidence, because it points to the love of God or love of neighbor. I would like to think that my audiences are smart enough to know the difference between when I am speaking in charity to a brother or sister in Christ, and when I am soapboxing in the Moral Theology forum. If you can’t tell the difference, well then get off the stupid computer.

 

[Peebo]

How true:thumbsup:

 

[Elizium23]

How true:thumbsup:

Perhaps you’ve never met me in Real Life. How can you agree with such judgemental bloviation when you’ve never bothered to talk to me, to get to know me, to see my personality when I am not sitting at a keyboard in front of an online forum?

 

[Sandraaustin]

Perhaps you’ve never met me in Real Life. How can you agree with such judgemental bloviation when you’ve never bothered to talk to me, to get to know me, to see my personality when I am not sitting at a keyboard in front of an online forum?

I agree, I’m new here, but if it’s “just another day at CAF”, perhaps it’s because of members who, instead of simply answering the OP’s question, instead choose to critique the answers from other members who DID answer the question. This is not helpful at all. Everyone has their own opinion and should be entitled to express it without others judging them.

 

[cena]

Rome never declared SSPX in schism. Was consecrating the bishops without papal authority okay? No. They still were not in schism.

Luther did not like what the pope was doing. He thought his way was better and he did it his way. He taught things contrary to the faith, and was excommunicated.

SSPX did not like what the pope was doing, they tried to do things their way. They were excommunicated.

Whether it’s one guy or a traditional order, they have to respect papal authority. I am not saying the pope can just do whatever he likes, but there is some stuff where only he has authority over (like consecrating bishops). We have to respect it.

I am not saying that Protestant are possessed or anything, but as Catholics we should not be praising the mistakes Luther made. He might have had good intentions but he ended becoming a heretic. That was a mistake.

There are traditional Catholics mad at the pope and some of the bishops, does that give them the excuse to create a schism and lead people away from the Church like Luther did? No, it does not that is wrong. While there are problems in the Church there are ethical ways to handle them INSIDE the Church.

 

[cena]

I personally find the way this is worded highly offensive. We are supposed to live as Christ did, and calling our somewhat misguided brothers and sisters essentially devil followers in a blanket statement like that is astonishing to me. You are all but accusing some 2 billion people (both living and dead) that are Protestant of their faith being started by Satan. I wouldn’t tolerate someone making the claim here (or elsewhere) that the Catholic Church was started by Satan; I would appreciate if you showed the same grace.

Thank you, wllmjoseph.

There were hateful writers on both sides. And saying that all the carnage for 200 years was solely based on the Protestant Reformation is a vast exaggeration. Not every conflict stems from religion.

Luther was dealing with a church that was preaching a very distorted message. His reaction is only natural. When you find out someone lied to you about 1 thing, you question everything else they taught you.

Interesting theory. However, look at it this way. Catholicism and Protestantism are both out to spread their view of the Gospel. Theres a large area of unreached people. The result is similar to the space race. Now, the effect today probably isn’t much, but there could be thousands of people in heaven because of this race.

What did the Church lie about? The indulgences? That is simony. Real indulgences can not be bought with money. And not the entire Church was teaching it. It was probably just that one church he went to that had corrupt clergy

 

[cena]

Well, yes, it does actually.
If his beliefs were contrary to what the Church was doing or teaching, this automatically makes him a heretic. It’s not an “excuse”, it just is.
I guess we might say that all the Catholics today who use birth control or have same-sex marriages, etc, are heretics, as per the definition of the word.

It doesn’t sound as though his initial goal was to take people away from being Catholic. Indeed, it looks as though he was trying to help the Church get back to more ethical, moral ground and make it better for the people. I admire him for that.

.

newadvent.org/cathen/09438b.htm

Some of his teachings like original sin are very different from Catholic teachings. Again, he could have brought morality back without trying to change Church teachings.

 

[Jubilarian]

You are full of knee jerk emotion. No Protestant was called a demon. I questioned whether it was possible since decades of truth where torn down by the Reformation. Is that hard to comprehend?

Threads like this do help. How many times have our separated brethren called into question the validity of truth of the Catholic Church? More times than you can count! As a former Fundamentalist , I listened to Protestant radio for years and heard all kinds of tearing down of the CC. Don’t get the idea that I created this thread for that reason, I just feel it is necessary for you and others to understand that questing can go both ways.

 

[Thorolfr]

What did the Church lie about? The indulgences? That is simony. Real indulgences can not be bought with money. And not the entire Church was teaching it. It was probably just that one church he went to that had corrupt clergy

The straw that broke the camel’s back for Luther was when the Dominican friar Johann Tetzel who was a subcommissary for the sale of indulgences in the province of Magdeburg started going from town to town in 1517 in a procession preceded by a cross, a standard bearing the papal arms and a cushion upon which sat a papal bull from Pope Leo X proclaiming an indulgence to raise money for the Church, all the while using the slogan, “When the coin in the coffer rings, a soul from purgatory springs” (In German: “Sobald der Pfennig im Kasten klingt, die Selle aus dem Fegfeuer springt”).

 

[Elizium23]

Does the Catholic Church still sell indulgences?
Catholic Answers:

That’s like asking, “Have you stopped beating your wife?” The Catholic Church does not now nor has it ever approved the sale of indulgences. This is to be distinguished from the undeniable fact that individual Catholics (perhaps the best known of them being the German Dominican Johann Tetzel [1465-1519]) did sell indulgences–but in doing so they acted contrary to explicit Church regulations. This practice is utterly opposed to the Catholic Church’s teaching on indulgences, and it cannot be regarded as a teaching or practice of the Church.

In the 16th century, when the abuse of indulgences was at its height, Cardinal Cajetan (Tommaso de Vio, 1469-1534) wrote about the problem: “Preachers act in the name of the Church so long as they teach the doctrines of Christ and the Church; but if they teach, guided by their own minds and arbitrariness of will, things of which they are ignorant, they cannot pass as representatives of the Church; it need not be wondered at that they go astray.”

Myths about Indulgences
Catholic Answers:

Myth 7: A person used to be able to buy indulgences.

One never could “buy” indulgences. The financial scandal surrounding indulgences, the scandal that gave Martin Luther an excuse for his heterodoxy, involved alms—indulgences in which the giving of alms to some charitable fund or foundation was used as the occasion to grant the indulgence. There was no outright selling of indulgences. The Catholic Encyclopedia states: “*t is easy to see how abuses crept in. Among the good works which might be encouraged by being made the condition of an indulgence, almsgiving would naturally hold a conspicuous place. . . . It is well to observe that in these purposes there is nothing essentially evil. To give money to God or to the poor is a praiseworthy act, and, when it is done from right motives, it will surely not go unrewarded.”
*