Was the reformation fueled by lust and greed

[redrosetea]

I think there needed to be reform within the church…but it sounds like what started as an attempt to do this ,became a sport for those that love chaos, and helped them self to the church’s possessions

Is this too simplistic a view?

 

[DL82]

It does often seem that way. While there were definitely some people who fought for their own freedom of conscience on both sides, on the political level it was rarely these people who won the day.

Sweden became Protestant because King Gustavas Adolphus needed Church money to pay back his Turkish creditors.
England became Protestant because Henry VIII wanted a divorce (and to help himself to the wealth of the monasteries).
Geneva was taken over by a kind of Calvinist Taleban who outlawed drinking and dancing.
Many of the German principalities wanted independence from the Holy Roman Emperor.

The only real exception I can think of is Scotland, which became Protestant while its’ King and aristocracy were still Catholic, and where the people left the Church because they felt neglected. This was partly because the Scottish Catholic Church was under English jurisdiction (Archdiocese of York), and had been neglected and left to wallow in superstition.

Only 36 of Luther’s 95 Theses were declared heretical. A more humble man could have returned to the Church with a mandate to eradicate 59 abuses from the German Church, more than a lifetime’s work for any priest. By that time, too many rich and powerful people seem to have rallied to Luther’s cause though, and the weeds of worldly success seem to have choked him.

 

[PrayforMallory]

I think there needed to be reform within the church…but it sounds like what started as an attempt to do this ,became a sport for those that love chaos, and helped them self to the church’s possessions

Is this too simplistic a view?

There was also a class dynamic. The rising merchant class used some of the doctrines to wage a socio-economic war against the aristocracy, which held most of the positions of power within the Catholic Church.

The European bourgeoisie in part preferred reformed doctrine, since it removed the virtue of poverty, of corporal works of mercy, etc. Without indulgences, the Protestant middle classes could keep their wealth (no purgatory means no indulgences, which means no need for charity in the long run). Salvation by faith alone was used as an excuse for the concentration of capital (since works were not necessary, there was know need in donating to monasteries, hospitals, etc), and the enrichment of the middle class at the expense of the aristocracy and the peasantry.

There were also political motivations. Certain North German princes wanted to operate independent of the imperial authority, so the Papacy that justified the imperial authority was seen as an obstacle to their independent jurisdiction. Of course, everyone is aware of what happened with Henry VIII.

The comparisons between the two modes of piety are evident when we look at the piety of St. Theresa of Avila and Oliver Cromwell. One embraced poverty, celibacy, etc., and the other used Calvinist doctrines to support the expansion of trade, of the legislative arm of government, of personal conscience instead of the authority of the Church, etc, in order to further the economic and political goals of the merchant classes.

“Sola Scriptura,” the Protestant spin of “Priesthood of the believer,” are basically blueprints for a rebellion against the medieval social order, and the theological justification of the burgher class that benefited from and instigated that rebellion.

There’s a book, “The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism,” by pioneer sociologist Max Weber, which discusses the class elements of the reformation in great detail, though his general thesis, that capitalism emerged from the adoption of Protestantism, has been critiqued over the years.

It’s not my area, but certainly the sin of avarice was a huge motivating factor. The Protestant paradigm creates a system in which works are no longer necessary, thus the charitable social order of the Middle Ages was discarded in Protestant countries.

 

[redrosetea]

I am learning a lot from both of you

 

[DL82]

Another factor that seems to be common to the lives of the Reformers, certainly to Luther and Calvin, is scupulosity.

Martin Luther, before he left the Church, is said to have saved up his Daily Office prayers and said them all together at the end of the week if he missed one during the week. There is also the apocryphal story that Luther climbed the Lateran Steps (the Sancta Scala) in Rome so many times his knees left grooves. Calvin likewise indicates in his writings that he saw himself constantly surrounded by demons and devils tempting him.

It seems both men fell prey to the classic lie that the devil uses to tempt devout and holy men ‘what if the devil has even deceived the Church?’ It’s a lie that makes us doubt Christ’s promises.

It’s also, sadly, a lie that is alive and well among some traditionalist Catholics today, who beleive that the Church is irreparably damaged and choose to leave rather than stay and pray. We can be certain that God will not let His Church fall beyond repair.

 

[Tomster]

Church historians correctly say there were two fundamental principles of the Reformation: the supreme authority of Scripture and the doctrine of justification by faith. Against these the Catholic position is that Scripture alone is not sufficient, but tradition is also needed; and that man is justified or made pleasing to God not only by faith but also by the good works he performs. However, beneath these two Reformation issues lay a deeper error from which they are both derived. This was the assertion of man’s independence of any society as the final arbiter in questions of faith and morals. It was “the Protestant belief in the inspiration of the individual and the consequent right of private judgment.” (cf. “Cardinal Principles of Protestantism” Albert C. Knudson) So basic is this principle that by it we may explain not only the Protestant imperviousness to history and argument which is so incredible to Catholics, but also the resistance among Protestants themselves to any attempt on the part of their leaders to unite the churches under “authoritarian domination.”

The instability of Protestantism is due to a strange concept of human autonomy which the Reformers injected into the body of Christian tradition.

 

[KingAlfred]

I think there needed to be reform within the church…but it sounds like what started as an attempt to do this ,became a sport for those that love chaos, and helped them self to the church’s possessions

Is this too simplistic a view?

Sort of, yes. The Reformation was a gigantic rebellion against the Old Order of Medieval, Catholic-dominated Europe. Yes…so was its antecedent, the Renaissance, but the Reformation touched off the actual ‘demolition’ of Old Europe along the full spectrum of socio-economic, political, national, imperial and religious lines. Therefore, it can be seen logically from a huge host of perspectives. It’s a massive field of study, and shouldn’t be simplified to a handful of observations.

Personally, it had an enormous effect on my own faith and worldview. When I first encountered the Reformation in my studies of history in college, I was powerfully influenced. I found Luther’s story and theological arguments so compelling, I spent years wrestling with the question of whether or not to convert to Lutheranism. In the end, my Catholic convictions prevailed, thankfully. Lutheranism is a mess. Its adherents are actually ashamed of their theological forefather, Luther, because of his passionate hatred of Jews, which he extensively documented. So, even though they worship within the parameters of his theological system, and still use his name to describe themselves as a religious community, they *reject him *for reasons involving political correctness.

 

[PrayforMallory]

It’s also, sadly, a lie that is alive and well among some traditionalist Catholics today, who beleive that the Church is irreparably damaged and choose to leave rather than stay and pray. We can be certain that God will not let His Church fall beyond repair.

What does this have to do with things that are completely licitly Catholic? What does it have to do with the common sense (and Papally acknowledged) reality that the Church is in a crisis?

 

[rwoehmke]

Helaire Belloc wrote a book on the history of the reformation, another on the main characters involved, and a third called Heresies. They are all available from Amazon.com or Tan Books. They support very strongly the impact of greed on the driving forces of the reformation Lust? Well maybe, but I think greed was at least equal to theology; probably more powerful than the theology, as the driving force among the elite. Lust was almost incidental.

The German Princes did not like sending money to Rome. The English nobles divided up the property of the Church in England and became quite wealthy in many cases. In Ireland, religion was used as an excuse to deprive the Catholic laity of their lands and to give it to English settlers. Perhaps in Holland the theology was more of a driving force, but even there it was a matter of who would gain power and influence.