Was The story of Noah real?

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Buffalo, seriously. Group your responses. It’s not that hard.
buffalo said:
What event covered Mt Everest in ice and snow say 50 million years ago when it supposedly started growing?
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The same thing covering it today… Even if there wasn’t ice or snow all the time, plenty of rock formations survive exposure to the elements.
buffalo said:
Yes, or at one time…
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I’ve already admitted that as a possibility. It’s just not a certainty like you’re claiming.
buffalo said:
Right, so now we can agree that there is evidence that can be interpreted in two ways. Good.
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I’ve already said that. The issue is that you’re asserting that your interpretation as the only acceptable one.
 
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I don’t follow the previous generations, but this behavior is one slippery slope downhill and we all know where downhill eventually bottoms out at.
 
As I said, but inspiration does not necessarily mean literal interpretation.
 
Maybe one day we’ll discover the Ark somehow and that it was actually physically built as described and we’ll all be like, “whoa, awesome.” But until that time it could be legendary, geology and archeology do not seem to support a literal interpretation of the narrative, and there is no reason to insist that it be literally accepted when nothing about it has been dogmatically defined. Do you think there were no rainbows before the flood?
 
niceatheist said:
Imagine being someone outside the Church, or even someone inside the Church, that did not accept the Flood as literal history. How is it you propose to square the circle? If I was thinking of becoming Catholic, and this Sola Scriptura notion that every word in the OT must have literally happened (a Global Flood so high it covered even the highest mountain, the sun frozen in place, the Earth only 6,000 years old, Jonah being swallowed by the whale, etc.) Is it actually true that you insist that I abandon everything that I know about reality otherwise risk not being a true convert?
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Lawlessness of nature and of humans can be as subtle as Ninevah or Sodom and Gormorah and the Babylonians. Who could imagine that at one time we all spoke the same language? In the book of Acts we read the capacity of the Holy Spirit when the passage reads, " And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language. Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, “Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born?

The question remains about these chapters in scripture on how free is free when God allows us to choose good from evil. The passage from the book of Samuel
expresses this choice from the people for a king and to be like every other nation. What happened? What was expressed? The right to choose for oneself. Beautifully expressed was Nehemiah’s prayer - a priestly prayer. The prayer had touched on some very important points, “but when they cried to God for help, he was so gracious as to send such men as Barak, Gideon, and others, to be their saviours, that is, deliverers, from tyranny.” God delivered them.

Lawlessness affects everything in creation as these stories have conveyed. The cities were destroyed along with the people, the flood washed all creation but Noah and his family survived, the people of Ninevah repented but God allowed time of reprievement, 40 days some 40 years (the number is symbolic).

There has to be a stopping point, a time when those in authority need to say, “Enough is enough!” Just as G-d also says: “Enough is enough, this cannot continue, this must stop!” And by stopping the undesirable actions, we perform an act of mercy, not vengeance. Stopping a cruel and wicked city or problems certainly can be an act of mercy for the victims. It may even be an act of mercy for those cruel and wicked people themselves conventional practices. Our God, makes us aware one doesn’t just walk away from one’s misdeeds. People are held accountable, responsible, and expected to mend their ways when they err; and if they don’t, there’s a price to be paid by all for improper actions.
 
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When Eve chose to “pick” from the tree of knowledge God did not “Stop” her or interfere with that choice. God did not stop the people from building a tower to the heavens nor did He stop Jacob’s children from going into Egypt only to be enslaved by Pharaoh.

What God did do was to offer away back from their decisions. In the way of the flood, lawlessness, isn’t just about bad choices it is the way we treated creation as a whole. Those choices affected others like the oil spills in the Pacific, trafficking animals and human beings for monetary gains, the 500 species of animal that have gone extinct and in the Amazon the tree and forest that have been torn down- those type of lawlessness not to mention other abominable sacrifices using nature - created by God.

Reading about the lawlessness in Genesis you really get a sense of nature fighting back with a vengeance! Every part of nature and human life matters. These things will eventually catch up with us. So yes, I believe the flood occurred but I believe that God gave us a reprievement to change our behavior and to turn back to Him.

For "in a very little while the one who is coming will return— he will not delay;
 
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I was thinking. If all the geological and archeological events that are possible evidence for the flood where dated to the same time frame then that would be one of the greatest proofs for the flood. In other words. If these events took place at the same time all over the world then that would be more conclusive.
Also, I wonder if a scientist has ever done an experiment to find out if water pressure and mud could fossilize a tree branch or bone instantly? It could be done in a pressure chamber or it could be lowered to the deepest part of the ocean. Maybe that is, one reason, why we have coal and petrified forests?
 
Sundiver said:
During the Japan earthquake water was gushing up from the ground. That is what the bible says. The water spouted up from the earth.
“In yet another confirmation of the Bible’s accuracy, scientists have now confirmed what Scripture refers to as “the fountains of the deep.” In the days of Noah and the Ark, these large pools of water beneath the Earth’s crust burst forth onto the surface providing the massive amounts of water needed for the global flood judgment. What has once been a source of skepticism and mockery for those who doubt the Bible, has now been confirmed by secular scientists, again showing that although written over 3,000 years ago, the Bible’s description of the Earth and its natural properties are indeed accurate.”
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If there’s all this water beneath the earths surface, then where is hell?
 
In my opinion, I think hell is in another dimension. We live in the 3rd dimension, so it is not easy to understand. Also,hell is possibly a denser existence. This is all on the level of private revelation, so I’m not sure what all that means. However, physicists know for certain that other dimensions exist. We don’t know exactly what is there. Another dimension is not necessarily a geographical location.
Thanks. I appreciate your question. It causes me to think about things from a different perspective.
 
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  1. Science does not support a literal interpretation of the Resurrection. Miracles are not miracles if they have mindane explanations.
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It’s not written as a testimony or report of a witness. The Noah story would be countless miracles occurring constantly and simultaneously for more than a century if it was literal. It seems like it wasn’t written with such literalism in mind.
  1. The historicity of Genisis has been magesterially determined to require the assent of the faithful.
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I’m not sure what you mean exactly. It’s not dogma, and it’s not in the creed. Plenary inerrancy does not necessarily mean literalism either, but the inspired author’s freedom from erroneous teaching. According to Dei Verbum: “the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings for the sake of salvation.”
 
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Neithan said:
I’m not sure what you mean exactly. It’s not dogma, and it’s not in the creed. Plenary inerrancy does not necessarily mean literalism either, but the inspired author’s freedom from erroneous teaching. According to Dei Verbum : “the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings for the sake of salvation
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What is the connection between 1 Peter and 1 Enoch

The epistle of 1 Peter, although very different from 2 Peter in style and content, contains numerous allusions to 1 Enoch. One is the motif of a prophet to whom heavenly secrets are revealed — secrets that the angels themselves wish to know. In 1 Enoch 16:3, pursuing such secrets is one of the sins the Watchers are accused of.

1 Peter 1:10–12
Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that was to be yours made careful search and inquiry, inquiring about the person or time that the Spirit of Christ within them indicated when it testified in advance to the sufferings destined for Christ and the subsequent glory. It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in regard to the things that have now been announced to you through those who brought you good news by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things into which angels long to look! 1 Enoch 16:3
You were in heaven, and no mystery was revealed to you; but a stolen mystery you learned; and this you made known to the women in your hardness of heart; and through this mystery the women and men are multiplying evils on the earth.

Much of 1 Peter’s material also comes from the section of 1 Enoch known as the Book of Parables (aka the Similitudes of Enoch ). This messianic text refers frequently to the coming of the righteous Son of Man who will judge the world — a concept adopted throughout the New Testament. 1 Peter 1:20 and 4:5 provide some good examples:

1 Peter 1:20
He was destined before the foundation of the world, but was revealed at the end of the ages for your sake. 1 Enoch 48:6–7a
For this (reason) he was chosen and hidden in his presence, before the world was created and forever. And the wisdom of the Lord of Spirits has revealed him to the holy and the righteous; for he has preserved the lot of the righteous.

1 Peter 4:5
But they will have to give an accounting to him who stands ready to judge the living and the dead. 1 Enoch 69:27
And he sat on the throne of his glory, and the whole judgment was given to the Son of Man, and he will make sinners vanish and perish from the face of the earth.
 
Perhaps the most interesting reference is one already mentioned, 1 Peter 3:18–20. As the text now stands, it describes Christ as having “made a proclamation” to the disobedient spirits who were in prison during the days of Noah. Most scholarly commentaries on 1 Peter acknowledge that Christ is being described as a type of Enoch, since Enoch is given the task of delivering God’s proclamation to the imprisoned Watchers during the time of Noah in 1 Enoch 11–13.

1 Peter 3:18–20
For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, in order to bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, in which also he went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison, who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. 1 Enoch 12:4–5, 13:3
Enoch, righteous scribe, go and say to the watchers of heaven—who forsook the highest heaven, the sanctuary of their eternal station, and defiled themselves with women. As the sons of earth do, so they did and took wives for themselves. And they worked great desolation on the earth— ‘You will have no peace or forgiveness.’ Then I went and spoke to all of them together. And they were all afraid, and trembling and fear seized them.

Although there have been other interpretations of this passage in 1 Peter, it should not be overlooked that the corresponding reference to the saving of Noah in 2 Peter occurs directly after the reference to the angels imprisoned in Tartaros. This certainly has implications for how the author of 2 Peter understood this passage.

There are further possibilities to explore. The awkward wording of verse 19, “in which also he went…”, is just one letter away from containing the name “Enoch” in Greek. (Adding a chi to ΕΝΩΚΑΙ, “in which also”, produces ΕΝΩΧΚΑΙ, “and Enoch”.) It has been suggested that the original text had Enoch visiting the spirits in prison, creating a string of segues linking Christ’s spiritual resurrection to Enoch’s spiritual underworld voyage, Noah’s flood, and finally baptism. Later, either accidentally or on purpose, the reference to Enoch was eliminated by a minor scribal edit. Although this possibility is rarely acknowledged by scholars today and considered unlikely, it has been adopted by at least two New Testament translations in the past — the AAT and the MNT. This reading is also mentioned in the marginal notes of the Jerusalem Bible.
Peter 3:18–20**
For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, in order to bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit, in which also he went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison, who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. 1 Enoch 12:4–5, 13:3

Are there two judgement? This being the first and Revelations being the final great judgement?
 
“For some go so far as to pervert the sense of the Vatican Council’s definition that God is the author of Holy Scripture, and they put forward again the opinion, already often condemned, which asserts that immunity from error extends only to those parts of the Bible that treat of God or of moral and religious matters. They even wrongly speak of a human sense of the Scriptures, beneath which a divine sense, which they say is the only infallible meaning, lies hidden. In interpreting Scripture, they will take no account of the analogy of faith and the Tradition of the Church. Thus they judge the doctrine of the Fathers and of the Teaching Church by the norm of Holy Scripture, interpreted by the purely human reason of exegetes, instead of explaining Holy Scripture according to the mind of the Church which Christ Our Lord has appointed guardian and interpreter of the whole deposit of divinely revealed truth.”

Humani Generis
 
Opening remark:

“26. Some also question whether angels are personal beings, and whether matter and spirit differ essentially. Others destroy the gratuity of the supernatural order, since God, they say, cannot create intellectual beings without ordering and calling them to the beatific vision. Nor is this all. Disregarding the Council of Trent, some pervert the very concept of original sin, along with the concept of sin in general as an offense against God, as well as the idea of satisfaction performed for us by Christ. Some even say that the doctrine of transubstantiation, based on an antiquated philosophic notion of substance, should be so modified that the real presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist be reduced to a kind of symbolism, whereby the consecrated species would be merely efficacious signs of the spiritual presence of Christ and of His intimate union with the faithful members of His Mystical Body.”

The comments made in the previous post were backed up as findings at quorum. If investigations have found their authenticity by both the Jewish and Christian religions, then it becomes valid. The information has been stored and on displayed:
BIBLICAL STORY RETOLD

By BARRY DAVIS

The question I had asked was whether or not there was a first judgement at that time versus a greater judgment which is the final one. But nevertheless there has been a judgement in the day of Noah. The judgement was against all people " but" one was found to be righteous - Noah : “So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth.” So again, if scripture makes the remark clear - then it was as a whole and not apart of that region. Also, God gave mankind a time of reprievement before Noah entered the ark. Whether the flood was as the same time in many different lands or regions - is a question? How then should we understand the great and final judgement? Hopefully not in the same way.
 
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Reference: Book of Enoch

The Book of Enoch, or, I Enoch: a new English edition : with commentary and …
By Matthew Black, Otto Neugebauer

LINK: books.google.com/books?id=joQeAAAAIAAJ&pg=PR13&lpg=PR13&dq=Aramaic+Notes+on+the+Book+of+Enoch+Journal+of+Semitic+Studies&source=bl&ots=PF6_0SM1Ql&sig=Y_iryeEIxChchT7Ozbz4SxWBrdQ&hl=en&ei=CwRjTpLiH4ThsQLJ6oipCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CDQQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Augustine actually rejected the Book of Enoch. You can read (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf102.iv.XVIII.38.html).

the Ethiopian Orthodox Church and the Ethiopian Catholic Church hold it to be canonical.
 
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