Was the Virgin Mary really perfect?

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Mary was not perfect. She was in the boat as all of us are. We are all sinners in need of savior. If she was perfect she would would not have said that Jesus was her savior. If a person is perfect they do not need saving. 👍
Luke 1:46-47

And Mary said:

" My soul exalts the Lord,
47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
NASU
 
Mary was not perfect. She was in the boat as all of us are. We are all sinners in need of savior. If she was perfect she would would not have said that Jesus was her savior. If a person is perfect they do not need saving. 👍
Luke 1:46-47

And Mary said:

" My soul exalts the Lord,
47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
NASU
Of course she needed the Savior, and the Savior made her perfect for in her womb the perfection - which is God - resided.
 
Every person who saved by faith in Christ like Mary was is perfect. According to these verse below a believer in Christ the moment he trusts Jesus as his savior has at that moment many blessing placed upon him.

#1. He is “complete.” By being complete nothing more is needed to make him acceptable in God’s eyes. He is complete. Col 2:10-11
10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;
NASU

#2. The believing sinner the moment he places his faith Christ alone for his salvation is bless with all of the blessing that heaven could ever give.

Eph 1:3-4
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
NASU

What more do we need in the christian life? We have it all. Now, it is up to us to put these blessings into practice. This is call our practical sanctification. The more we grow in our understanding of what we have been given the more we become like Christ. It is a life long process. The point is we have all that we need to live the Christian life through Christ. 👍
 
I just wanted to say hello to all of the newer posters. Welcome to the forums.
 
And Mary said:

" My soul exalts the Lord,
47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
NASUGOD is her Savior. God had already saved her. Her Salvation came before Jesus was even born. Mary is acknowledging her “Saved” state as indicated by the Greeting the Arch-Angel Gabriel made: “Hail, Full of Grace” not “Highly Favored”

It is a “Direct Address”

The Greek Word used is Kecharitomene.

kecharitomene

charito

The root word is charitoo [caritow], which means “to grace, favor.” On this much, it seems, all agree. All the common English translations of the word therefore, regardless of whether the translators are Catholic or Protestant, use some form of “grace” or “favor” in them.

ke

The prefix on charitoo is ke, signifying that the word is in the perfect tense. This indicates a present state which is the result of a completed past action. The action which brought about the state in which Mary is, in other words, was completed before Gabriel’s greeting. Gabriel is viewing the finished results.

This tense seems difficult to render in English, especially with one word, as Gabriel uses. The translator does not only want to indicate that the past action is complete, but also that there is a continuing state as a result. Allowing for more than one word, an example of the tense in English might be “you are certified to teach.” “Are” indicates a present state, “certified” shows that the state is the result of a completed past action.

mene

The suffix on charitoo, mene, makes this a passive participle. “Passive” means that the action is performed on the subject, in this case Mary, by another agent. The verb is “grace” and the implied subject is Mary. The passive usage means that “someone graced Mary,” rather than “Mary graced.” Most theologians would probably accept the assumption that the implied “someone” is God. “Participle,” in this case, means that the word has properties of both a verb and a noun. This makes sense in light of what has already been said about direct address. A direct address is a noun or pronoun, but “to grace” is a verb. Kecharitomene has verb and noun properties.
 
Now Jesus did say there was none greater than John the Baptist - whether this meant he was sinless through life as Mary was, who knows, although it could do.
John the Baptist was the dividing line between Old Testament prophets and our Lord who was prophecy fulfilled. While John literally heralded Jesus’ ministry, the least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he because everyone who would follow the Christ after His mission began would gain heaven ( even those before Christ who looked forward to the Cross). Mary is Jesus’ first and best disciple. We absolutely cannot compare the two as their roles are completely different. Saying that the Messiah is to come and being the vessel that carries Him are two completely different modes of presenting Christ to us…God Bless 🙂
 
Actually, I would like to know the difference between perfect and immaculate. Can she be without sin, and yet not be perfect?
Ut
I would imagine that the Holy See does not teach that she never made a mistake of knowing its Tuesday when it was Wednesday.

Rome does teach that she is perfect in her love and obidience to God by never committing a personal sin through out her earthly existance.

“If she is good enough to be the mother for Jesus, she’s good enough for me!”

Maria, ora pro nobis!
 
I have been studying for a while now, (I’m new to the faith) and I cant find anywhere in the Bible where it says that Mary was perfect. Why does the Church teach it, and where do they get their reasoning for that belief. I’ve heard people say its because Jesus was perfect which kinda makes sense, but why did it have to be that way? God has infinite power, couldnt it be simply be that Jesus was perfect and that’s that? Why does the Virgin Mary have to be perfect? I’m not saying I’m ruling it out or anything, I’m just trying to understand why the Church believes it. Also, where do they get that she was assumed into heaven? Do you have to believe all this to be a member of the Catholic Church? Thank you in advance for you answers.
Code:
                                  God bless.
Depends what you mean by “perfect.” If by perfect you mean, “God preserved her from Original Sin from the moment of her conception and she never sinned throughout her life,” then yes, she was perfect.

If you mean perfect in the sense that,“she was a genius, good at everything (piano, art, physics), great singing voice, 1600 on the SAT’s and she was a size 2 and had perfect skin and teeth” then no, you don’t have to believe that.
 
how did you determine that John the Baptist was filled with the HS since conception? And if he was, then how is his spritual state any different than Mary’s?
Gabriel speaking to Zack about John.

Luke 1:14 "He will be joyful and a delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth 15 for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine, or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth."

Oh, and by the way, Mary did tie Jesus laces…

In Christ!
 
Mary was not perfect. She was in the boat as all of us are. We are all sinners in need of savior. If she was perfect she would would not have said that Jesus was her savior. If a person is perfect they do not need saving. 👍
Luke 1:46-47

And Mary said:

" My soul exalts the Lord,
47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
NASU
26…the angel Gabriel was sent from God …to…(a) virgin’s name was Mary. 28 And he came to her and said, “Hail, O favored one, the Lord is with you!”

Luke 1:26-28

Surely the angel would not lie! Therefore, even before Mary was visited by Gabriel, she was already “highly favored” and the Lord was with her. Now, since we know that we cannot, of our own merit, become highly favored of God, and that the Lord is only "with " persons in this intimate sense who are saved, then Mary was already saved when the angel came to her.
 
Every person who saved by faith in Christ like Mary was is perfect. According to these verse below a believer in Christ the moment he trusts Jesus as his savior has at that moment many blessing placed upon him.
Yes, of course. This is why we say of Mary, “our life, our sweetness, and our hope”. she embodies the inheritence that is promised to all of us, and it is life, sweetness, and hope.

#1. He is “complete.” By being complete nothing more is needed to make him acceptable in God’s eyes. He is complete. Col 2:10-11
10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;
NASU

#2. The believing sinner the moment he places his faith Christ alone for his salvation is bless with all of the blessing that heaven could ever give.

Eph 1:3-4
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
NASU

What more do we need in the christian life? We have it all. Now, it is up to us to put these blessings into practice. This is call our practical sanctification. The more we grow in our understanding of what we have been given the more we become like Christ. It is a life long process. The point is we have all that we need to live the Christian life through Christ. 👍

Perhaps our only disagreement is how those blessings are put into practice? Catholics believe:
“21 He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.” John 14:21

This is a life of obedience, and that it is faith, working through love, that Christ created good works for us, so that we should walk in them.
 
Mary was not perfect. She was in the boat as all of us are. We are all sinners in need of savior. If she was perfect she would would not have said that Jesus was her savior. If a person is perfect they do not need saving. 👍
Luke 1:46-47

And Mary said:

" My soul exalts the Lord,
47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
Every person who saved by faith in Christ like Mary was is perfect. According to these verse below a believer in Christ the moment he trusts Jesus as his savior has at that moment many blessing placed upon him.
😃 Am I the only person who read this wrong or what? 😉
no, I think the poster is saying that Mary did not get “saved” until after she believed in Christ?
 
I have been studying for a while now, (I’m new to the faith) and I cant find anywhere in the Bible where it says that Mary was perfect. Why does the Church teach it, and where do they get their reasoning for that belief. I’ve heard people say its because Jesus was perfect which kinda makes sense, but why did it have to be that way? God has infinite power, couldnt it be simply be that Jesus was perfect and that’s that? Why does the Virgin Mary have to be perfect? I’m not saying I’m ruling it out or anything, I’m just trying to understand why the Church believes it. Also, where do they get that she was assumed into heaven? Do you have to believe all this to be a member of the Catholic Church? Thank you in advance for you answers.
Code:
                                  God bless.
Part of the problem that you are having is that you erroneously think that the full deposit of faith is found in the Bible, which it is not. However, here is some info that can help:

catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9112fea1.asp

the notion of the immaculate conception flows from our believe that Christ is truly God, and truly human. If he did not take His flesh from Mary, then he is not truly human. However, since He is perfect, then he could not take tainted flesh unto himself, so the flesh from which He drew his physical being was without sin.
 
Everybody needs as Savior, including our Mother Mary. Where in scpriture does it say a person without sin doesnt need a Savior? This is a big misunderstanding that the Catholic Church clearly does not teach. Mary could only have been without sin through Gods grace alone, and not anything she did, and Mary is aware and acknowledges that!

In Christ!
 
While I understand the explanations given for Mary’s sinlessness, I would like to hear some historical quotes from the early church fathers or the like who believed in Mary’s sinlessness.
She is God’s perfect creation in every way, all you have to do is put two and two together. God incarnate was flesh of her flesh, and blood of her blood. So what does that tell you, her flesh and her blood gave life to the Son of God who was perfect in every way, because He is GOD.
If that doesn’t make sense to anyone who can put two and two together and get four, then there is no more I can say.
I am not asking for a response from this writer, but just a response in general, if Mary had to be sinless in order to give birth to a sinless Jesus (who as far as I know was sinless by default, He being God) then wouldn’t it follow that Mary’s parents also had to be sinless? Someone might say, “Well, Mary wasn’t the savior, Jesus was,” but then the point is not who the savior is, but rather who is sinless. If Mary was truly sinless, how could she be sinless if her parents weren’t also?
I just want to assure everyone that I also am Catholic. I came into the Catholic faith from a Fundamentalist Baptist background. I know that most Baptists and Fundamentalists are sincere and many are quite well read in the Bible. I posed this question because it is a natural anomaly that arises from the way in which many people explain the Immaculate Conception. Since many people say that Mary had to be perfect in order for her to give birth to a perfect son, it would follow from that statement that her parents were also perfect, and their parents, and their ancestors, etc. I get asked this question a lot and somehow the Ark of the New Covenant explanation goes right over their heads (my Baptist family members). They often respond with the explanations that I had originally taught them (I was quite creative in finding good arguments as a Baptist) and we used to drill each for hours so basically I am arguing with my old students. It is quite a pickle to be in.
 
Since God chose His own mother He made her as perfect as He wanted her to be.
 
While I understand the explanations given for Mary’s sinlessness, I would like to hear some historical quotes from the early church fathers or the like who believed in Mary’s sinlessness.
“He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption.” *Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me (ante A.D. 235). *

“This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.” *Origen, Homily 1(A.D. 244). *

“Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary.” *Ephraim, Hymns on the Nativity, 15:23 (A.D. 370). *

“Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother.” *Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370). *

“O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides.” *Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin, 71:216 (ante AD 373). *

“Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.” *Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388). *

“We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin.” *Augustine, Nature and Grace,4 2[36] (A.D.415). *
“As he formed her without my stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain.” *Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1 (ante A.D. 446). *

“A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns.” *Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily VI:11(ante A.D. 446). *
“The angel took not the Virgin from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged in the womb, when she was made.” *Peter Chrysologus, Sermon 140 (A.D. 449). *

“[T]he very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary.” *Jacob of Sarug (ante A.D. 521). *
“She is born like the cherubim, she who is of a pure, immaculate clay.” *Theotokos of Livias, Panegyric for the feast of the Assumption, 5:6 (ante A.D. 650). *

“Today humanity, in all the radiance of her immaculate nobility, receives its ancient beauty. The shame of sin had darkened the splendour and attraction of human nature; but when the Mother of the Fair One par excellence is born, this nature regains in her person its ancient privileges and is fashioned according to a perfect model truly worthy of God… The reform of our nature begins today and the aged world, subjected to a wholly divine transformation, receives the first fruits of the second creation.” *Andrew of Crete, Sermon I, On the Birth of Mary (A.D. 733). *
“[T]ruly elect, and superior to all, not by the altitude of lofty structures, but as excelling all in the greatness and purity of sublime and divine virtues, and having no affinity with sin whatever.” *Germanus of Constantinople, Marracci in S. Germani Mariali (ante A.D. 733). *

“O most blessed loins of Joachim from which came forth a spotless seed! O glorious womb of Anne in which a most holy offspring grew.” *John of Damascus, Homily I (ante A.D. 749). *
 
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