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kaycee
Guest
You have already bought the papacy argument why do you now need a rational explanation for other doctines?
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JoeyWarren
Guest
That is the first problem. The church does not teach she had to be sinless or that God had to make her sinless. It teaches that it was fitting for her to be sinless. Greater apologists have asked this:
If you were God and you could create your own Mother and would carry you in a womb, then how would you make her?
A great answer would look to how the Ark of the Covenant of the Old Testament was made which would eventually carry God in the written form.
No.
At the precise moment that the sperm penetrated the ovum, Jesus in his pre-incarnate form removed the stain of original sin(SOOS).
Here is how to address the issue with students. Use John the Baptist as the starting point. John was filled with the Holy Spirit in the womb of Elisabeth. The SOOS can not exist when the Holy Spirit is present in full measure. John breached the womb sinless.
If God can do this with John, then is it plausible that it was done at an earlier state of gestation as I mentioned earlier?
This can be verified by choice of words that Luke used when he wrote the Annunciation.
See the next post.
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JoeyWarren
Guest
When Origen wrote about the annunciation to Mary
(Luke 1:26-38), he remarked: The angel greeted Mary with a new address, which I could not find anywhere else in Scripture… The angel says, “Hail, full of grace.” The Greek word is kecharitomene [kecaritomene]. I do not remember having read this word elsewhere in Scripture. An expression of this kind, “Hail, full of grace,” is not addressed to a male. This greeting was reserved for Mary alone.
The Greek word kecharitomene has fascinated people since ancient times, and for a number of reasons. What does it mean? How do we best translate it into other languages? What might it imply, beyond simple meaning, about Mary? This article will focus primarily on the first two questions: considering the meaning of the Greek word and its translation into English. The third question could not be fully answered without considering the larger scriptural context of the words of Gabriel, traditional Christian understanding and mariology, etc.
So what does kecharitomene mean?
direct address
When Gabriel appears to Mary, the first words he says to her are “Chaire, kecharitomene!” [Caire, kecaritomene!]. Chaire (which means both “rejoice” and “hail”) is the salutation, like the word “hello” in “hello, Cathy!” The word that follows, kecharitomene, is the direct address. In the previous example, the name “Cathy” is the direct address. A direct address is usually a name or title (or pronoun taking the place of a name or title) which represents the identity of the person being spoken to. Gabriel identifies Mary with a single term: not the name “Mary,” but the word kecharitomene.
Here, a common translation problem occurs. Gabriel only uses one word to refer to Mary, but most English translations do not. One particularly bad translation renders kecharitomene as “highly favored daughter.” Kecharitomene is extended from one word to three. The direct address in the translation is “daughter,” a word which does not appear in the Greek at all (as will be shown below). “Daughter” is then modified with a relevant word. This doesn’t really do kecharitomene justice. The same is true of translations which make the direct address “you” or “one” and modify it with adjectives or appositive phrases.
caritow
The root word is charitoo [caritow], which means “to grace, favor.” On this much, it seems, all agree. All the common English translations of the word therefore, regardless of whether the translators are Catholic or Protestant, use some form of “grace” or “favor” in them.
ke
The prefix on charitoo is ke, signifying that the word is in the perfect tense. This indicates a present state which is the result of a completed past action. The action which brought about the state in which Mary is, in other words, was completed before Gabriel’s greeting. Gabriel is viewing the finished results.
This tense seems difficult to render in English, especially with one word, as Gabriel uses. The translator does not only want to indicate that the past action is complete, but also that there is a continuing state as a result. Allowing for more than one word, an example of the tense in English might be “you are certified to teach.” “Are” indicates a present state, “certified” shows that the state is the result of a completed past action.
mene
The suffix on charitoo, mene, makes this a passive participle. “Passive” means that the action is performed on the subject, in this case Mary, by another agent. The verb is “grace” and the implied subject is Mary. The passive usage means that “someone graced Mary,” rather than “Mary graced.” Most theologians would probably accept the assumption that the implied “someone” is God. “Participle,” in this case, means that the word has properties of both a verb and a noun. This makes sense in light of what has already been said about direct address. A direct address is a noun or pronoun, but “to grace” is a verb. Kecharitomene has verb and noun properties.
Again, there can be weaknesses in translation here. For example, St. Jerome and the King James translators tried to render kecharitomene as “full of grace.” This translation is very good compared to many others, but because “grace” is no longer verb-like, it is also not passive as it is in Greek. Popular Catholic usage of this translation prompted this Protestant complaint:
The gratia plena [full of grace] of the Vulgate is too indefinite. It is right if it means “full of grace, which thou hast received”; wrong if it means “full of grace, which thou hast to bestow” *. (quoted in John McHugh’s The Mother of Jesus in the New Testament)
[The complaint is legitimate when it says the translation is not clear about passivity. It is not legitimate if it is intended as an accusation that Catholics don’t acknowledge the passive aspect of the word, for Pope John Paul II has clearly stressed the passive aspect of kecharitomene.]*
(Luke 1:26-38), he remarked: The angel greeted Mary with a new address, which I could not find anywhere else in Scripture… The angel says, “Hail, full of grace.” The Greek word is kecharitomene [kecaritomene]. I do not remember having read this word elsewhere in Scripture. An expression of this kind, “Hail, full of grace,” is not addressed to a male. This greeting was reserved for Mary alone.
The Greek word kecharitomene has fascinated people since ancient times, and for a number of reasons. What does it mean? How do we best translate it into other languages? What might it imply, beyond simple meaning, about Mary? This article will focus primarily on the first two questions: considering the meaning of the Greek word and its translation into English. The third question could not be fully answered without considering the larger scriptural context of the words of Gabriel, traditional Christian understanding and mariology, etc.
So what does kecharitomene mean?
direct address
When Gabriel appears to Mary, the first words he says to her are “Chaire, kecharitomene!” [Caire, kecaritomene!]. Chaire (which means both “rejoice” and “hail”) is the salutation, like the word “hello” in “hello, Cathy!” The word that follows, kecharitomene, is the direct address. In the previous example, the name “Cathy” is the direct address. A direct address is usually a name or title (or pronoun taking the place of a name or title) which represents the identity of the person being spoken to. Gabriel identifies Mary with a single term: not the name “Mary,” but the word kecharitomene.
Here, a common translation problem occurs. Gabriel only uses one word to refer to Mary, but most English translations do not. One particularly bad translation renders kecharitomene as “highly favored daughter.” Kecharitomene is extended from one word to three. The direct address in the translation is “daughter,” a word which does not appear in the Greek at all (as will be shown below). “Daughter” is then modified with a relevant word. This doesn’t really do kecharitomene justice. The same is true of translations which make the direct address “you” or “one” and modify it with adjectives or appositive phrases.
caritow
The root word is charitoo [caritow], which means “to grace, favor.” On this much, it seems, all agree. All the common English translations of the word therefore, regardless of whether the translators are Catholic or Protestant, use some form of “grace” or “favor” in them.
ke
The prefix on charitoo is ke, signifying that the word is in the perfect tense. This indicates a present state which is the result of a completed past action. The action which brought about the state in which Mary is, in other words, was completed before Gabriel’s greeting. Gabriel is viewing the finished results.
This tense seems difficult to render in English, especially with one word, as Gabriel uses. The translator does not only want to indicate that the past action is complete, but also that there is a continuing state as a result. Allowing for more than one word, an example of the tense in English might be “you are certified to teach.” “Are” indicates a present state, “certified” shows that the state is the result of a completed past action.
mene
The suffix on charitoo, mene, makes this a passive participle. “Passive” means that the action is performed on the subject, in this case Mary, by another agent. The verb is “grace” and the implied subject is Mary. The passive usage means that “someone graced Mary,” rather than “Mary graced.” Most theologians would probably accept the assumption that the implied “someone” is God. “Participle,” in this case, means that the word has properties of both a verb and a noun. This makes sense in light of what has already been said about direct address. A direct address is a noun or pronoun, but “to grace” is a verb. Kecharitomene has verb and noun properties.
Again, there can be weaknesses in translation here. For example, St. Jerome and the King James translators tried to render kecharitomene as “full of grace.” This translation is very good compared to many others, but because “grace” is no longer verb-like, it is also not passive as it is in Greek. Popular Catholic usage of this translation prompted this Protestant complaint:
The gratia plena [full of grace] of the Vulgate is too indefinite. It is right if it means “full of grace, which thou hast received”; wrong if it means “full of grace, which thou hast to bestow” *. (quoted in John McHugh’s The Mother of Jesus in the New Testament)
[The complaint is legitimate when it says the translation is not clear about passivity. It is not legitimate if it is intended as an accusation that Catholics don’t acknowledge the passive aspect of the word, for Pope John Paul II has clearly stressed the passive aspect of kecharitomene.]*
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NotWorthy
Guest
Bought?
Excepted the Revealed Truth from Christ’s authority here on earth?
Toe-may-toe - Tuh-mah-toe…
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JoeyWarren
Guest
Duh-may-ders! speshly friiiied grin Duh-may-ders!
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NotWorthy
Guest
Actually, we just call them by their God-given name where I’m from:**Duh-may-ders! speshly friiiied grin **Duh-may-ders!
Ter-May-Ters!!!
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JoeyWarren
Guest
Scuse me! Da Gawd given name is duh-may-ders! An I thank Jaysus agrees!
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jesuislemec
Guest
Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope,
but do it with gentleness and reverence, keeping your conscience clear, so that, when you are maligned, those who defame your good conduct in Christ may themselves be put to shame. - First Peter 3.15,16 NAB.
So are you suggesting that because I accept the papacy, that I must now cease thinking? If any Catholic apologist I encountered had thrown out that kind of anti intellectual, head in the sand mentality as a viable option to a religious seeker, I would have reevaluated. Of course, I don’t judge a religion by the words and actions of those who don’t practice it. I’m not sure what approach you are taking with your suggestion, but I don’t appreciate the implication that accepting the papacy relegates one to become an unthinking automaton. The pursuit of rational explanations led me to Catholicism in the first place, and I don’t intend to stop that quest.
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Teeliumtrozzle
Guest
If Mary wasn’t perfect, she would never have been allowed to be the Mother of God.She played a very important role in raising Jesus. God would never allow just anyone to raise his Son, and Mary must have been perfect, since it was she who was the Lord’s Mother.
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