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roselily
Guest
Yes, Brother, that is true! :curtsey:
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roselily
Guest
Yes, Nate, this is definite and wonderful.
Nate, did you know that being child like and even like robot is very well?
and that one must compatible to innocence, can access innocence, and has the power of innocence?
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roselily
Guest
True.
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Benadam
Guest
The Incarnation wasn’t something flesh could reveal. Believing that kind of thing really happened requires revelation from heaven. I think because the Incarnation happened through her that maybe her intercession played a part in who would become members of that community hidden in the shadow of the Holy Spirit. The ones that know something that flesh can’t reveal. Knowledge in it’s deepest form is a union of likeness. Truth is the fruit of her womb. Only she could know and love Truth like that. I think she was as shrewed as a serpent and as harmless as a dove.
Who on earth could have had faith in the Resurrection before it happened but the person who the Incarnation happened through.? Who else could know what Jesus meant when He was telling them He had power over life, or that on the third day He would rise again? She knows in a way no one else could that He didn’t come in the normal way only she could believe in something not normal.
Who on earth could have had faith in the Resurrection before it happened but the person who the Incarnation happened through.? Who else could know what Jesus meant when He was telling them He had power over life, or that on the third day He would rise again? She knows in a way no one else could that He didn’t come in the normal way only she could believe in something not normal.
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Bezant
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It seems, from her intervention at the wedding at Cana, that she was sensative to people’s needs.
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Wardog
Guest
She had a mother’s wisdom; it must have been quite a task to raise Jesus, knowing who and what he was, yet keeping him human. I always thought the Cana wedding story was a good one about her; Jesus may have been annoyed to be told what to do, but he did it anyway. As a good son should.
And that is a good reason for us to consider her as an able Advocate for us.
A story:
Jesus was walking with St Peter and asked him how things were going. St Peter responded " Things are well, but I am having trouble with Mary. Here I am enforcing all of Your laws and turning away sinners, but they just go to the back door and Your Mother will let them in when they ask her."
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AngryAtheist8
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How would being sheltered in a religious community make her knowledgeable?Well, no , we (I) don’t accept this definition - It’s something you made up. :tsktsk: ,
Catholics accept that Mary was without sin. Period. That is the meaning of "innocence".
Additionally, one can also be knowledgeable about particular things without having personally experienced them.
To concede a point , how knowledgeable do you think anyone was back then ?
To take back half the conceded point :
And
- would further imply she would have been more knowledgeable than most , being educated by the most educated of her day. But knowledge isn’t wisdom.
Don’t many scholars say that the Virgin Mary was most likely illiterate?
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AngryAtheist8
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But as the Catholic Church is usually quick to remind usTo say that innocence = ignorance is stretching it … close to the breaking point. Lack of knowledge of evil, would keep it in the same ballpark.
A Catholic definition of innocence by Fr. John Hardon S.J., is as follows:
INNOCENCE
Freedom from sin or moral guilt. Applied to Adam and Eve before the Fall, to those who have just been baptized, and to persons who never lost the state of grace because they never committed a grave sin. (Etym. Latin innocens: in-, not + nocere, to harm, hurt.)
What is notable is that the majority of reputable secular dictionaries are in agreement.
The Oxford dictionary defines innocence as
Merriam Webster Dictionary’s prime definition of innocence is :
- the state , quality, or fact of being innocent of a crime or offence:
- lack of guile or corruption; purity:
a : freedom from guilt or sin through being unacquainted with evil : blamelessness
(only as the 5th and final definition is lack of knowledge listed)
American Heritage Dictionary’s prime definition of innocence is
a. Freedom from sin, moral wrong, or guilt through lack of knowledge of evil
(again, lack of knowledge is only listed as the fifth definition)
Several more definitions from Fr. John Hardon S.J.’s Modern Catholic Dictionary would support the plausibility of this post –
I don’t intend that as an insult in any way. But considering these two definitions:
And seeing as you lay claim to being agnostic, the definition of wisdom we are using is impossible for you because for agnostics, certitudes about ultimates is impossible ; and God is the first cause and last end of all things.
We aren’t arguing on the same plane. How can someone who doesn’t believe in the existence or perfections of a personal God, try and teach us who do about His Mother ?
we live in a Fallen world where virtually everything is tainted by sin. Therefore being innocent/ignorant of sin would mean being ignorant of virutally everything.Besides, as you yourself point out, ignorance* is *one of the definitions of sin.
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AngryAtheist8
Guest
No we are not.To say that innocence = ignorance is stretching it … close to the breaking point. Lack of knowledge of evil, would keep it in the same ballpark.
A Catholic definition of innocence by Fr. John Hardon S.J., is as follows:
INNOCENCE
Freedom from sin or moral guilt. Applied to Adam and Eve before the Fall, to those who have just been baptized, and to persons who never lost the state of grace because they never committed a grave sin. (Etym. Latin innocens: in-, not + nocere, to harm, hurt.)
What is notable is that the majority of reputable secular dictionaries are in agreement.
The Oxford dictionary defines innocence as
Merriam Webster Dictionary’s prime definition of innocence is :
- the state , quality, or fact of being innocent of a crime or offence:
- lack of guile or corruption; purity:
a : freedom from guilt or sin through being unacquainted with evil : blamelessness
(only as the 5th and final definition is lack of knowledge listed)
American Heritage Dictionary’s prime definition of innocence is
a. Freedom from sin, moral wrong, or guilt through lack of knowledge of evil
(again, lack of knowledge is only listed as the fifth definition)
Several more definitions from Fr. John Hardon S.J.’s Modern Catholic Dictionary would support the plausibility of this post –
I don’t intend that as an insult in any way. But considering these two definitions:
And seeing as you lay claim to being agnostic, the definition of wisdom we are using is impossible for you because for agnostics, certitudes about ultimates is impossible ; and God is the first cause and last end of all things.
We aren’t arguing on the same plane. How can someone who doesn’t believe in the existence or perfections of a personal God, try and teach us who do about His Mother ?
I am not bound by the same assumptions you are.
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Benadam
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This kind of argument only adds awe to the way God reveals Wisdom.
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AngryAtheist8
Guest
Specifically the descriptions of her as being utterly sinless her whole life.
Since the Catholic Church defines sin as any thought, action, or feeling displeasing to God, Mary’s utterly sinless nature means she was only capable of thinking, feeling, and acting within a very narrow range.
She was effectively not capable of selfishness, lust, jealousy, putting the needs of others last, arrogance, etc.
More like a sophisticated robot (becauses all her responses were effectively preprogrammed) than a sentient being.
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AngryAtheist8
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Lots of people believe a lot of crazy stuff.
Not a convincing line to end your post on
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AngryAtheist8
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No it doesn’t.
If wisdom isn’t intelligence or knowledge what good is it?
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Wardog
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Do you really think literacy or an education makes one wise? I know quite a few people with advanced degrees that I do not consider wise. I know others with nothing more than a HS degree who I think are very wise and smart.
I think you are confusing worldly wisdom with the wisdom of God. Someone with worldly wisdom, like the person who calls himself an angry atheist, thinks believing in Christ is foolish. Someone with divine wisdom can understand that believing in Christ is the path to salvation.
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Benadam
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Wisdom is not in the knowing as much as the doing.
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NeedImprovement
Guest
You’re sort of proving my point. You see, if you would debate or make assertions or speculate about our Blessed Mother at CAF , as evidenced by your posts , *you presume us to be bound by your definitions - which are contrary to Catholic definitions and * which even secular dictionaries relegate to the rank of least pertinence.
Without meaning you any insult or harm at all (because your questions might actually help us understand our own Catholic faith more fully) , I maintain we still aren’t debating on the same plane - and we never will as long as we use definitions which patently differ.
The question still stands :
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AngryAtheist8
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If you simply define wisdom as faith and trust in God, then you shouldn’t have a special word for wisdom at all and just say faith instead.
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AngryAtheist8
Guest
I don’t think you’re using the normal definition of the word.
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AngryAtheist8
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I have no interest in teaching Catholic theology.
But I can certainly point out the holes in it.
Such as the fact that the Catholic version of the Virgin Mary is defined not by what qualities she has, but rather what she lacks.
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Nate13
Guest
Wisdom is the ability to see the big picture of what life is all about. This could require extensive knowledge but that is not necessary. So for us Mary would be wise because she is the great example of someone who understood what life was all about and lived it perfectly. Since by your understanding she was pretty much duped by a myth, and gave birth to someone you have to consider mentally insane since he believed he was God, it makes sense you would not see her as wise.
Actually I believe getting caught up in “knowledge” is a hindrance towards being wise. You get too caught up in individual facts and don’t even stop to ask why they are of importance.
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