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J
Jerry-Jet
Guest
I have never heard a Catholic give me a good speculative theological answer to the following question:
If it is indeed possible for Jesus to be Substantially present beneath the accidents of bread and wine–is it possible for anything else to be Substantially present beneath a contrary accident?
In other words is it possible for the Garden of Eden to be Substantially present beneath the current day accidents of Iraq?
We know that Jesus is divine and since he is Divinely present beneath the accidents of bread and wine that He is of course not bound by time and space.
If “The Word” Jesus is truely that by which everything was made and that nothing can be made without him:
Would it be possible that that same Word could create Eden beneath the contrary accidents of present time and space Iraq here on Earth where it similiarily would not be bound by current time and space?
If that is possible then all conflicts between the Garden of Eden and present space and time here on Earth could be reconciled!
And the Flashing sword of the angel put in place to guard the entrance to Eden could in truth be flashing in all directions between our dimension and Eden’s dimension!
In other words with enough manipulation of time and space by God who is not bound by time and space Both evolution and the Garden of Eden could Both be true!
It would be possible to have pre-Adamic non soul races and also have Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden and no contradiction between them!
The key to Apparent contradictions is to have a mind large enough not to be bound by our current universe and our current time scale with its current dimensions.
If God who created the universe isn’t bound by those things–then maybe just maybe the Garden of Eden that He created is also not bound by those things!
If it is indeed possible for Jesus to be Substantially present beneath the accidents of bread and wine–is it possible for anything else to be Substantially present beneath a contrary accident?
In other words is it possible for the Garden of Eden to be Substantially present beneath the current day accidents of Iraq?
We know that Jesus is divine and since he is Divinely present beneath the accidents of bread and wine that He is of course not bound by time and space.
If “The Word” Jesus is truely that by which everything was made and that nothing can be made without him:
Would it be possible that that same Word could create Eden beneath the contrary accidents of present time and space Iraq here on Earth where it similiarily would not be bound by current time and space?
If that is possible then all conflicts between the Garden of Eden and present space and time here on Earth could be reconciled!
And the Flashing sword of the angel put in place to guard the entrance to Eden could in truth be flashing in all directions between our dimension and Eden’s dimension!
In other words with enough manipulation of time and space by God who is not bound by time and space Both evolution and the Garden of Eden could Both be true!
It would be possible to have pre-Adamic non soul races and also have Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden and no contradiction between them!
The key to Apparent contradictions is to have a mind large enough not to be bound by our current universe and our current time scale with its current dimensions.
If God who created the universe isn’t bound by those things–then maybe just maybe the Garden of Eden that He created is also not bound by those things!
F
FrankLawrence
Guest
The use of carbon dating to determine the age of ancient artifacts seems to me to be a flawed science. Proper scientific experimentation requires an experimental group(or object) and a control group(or object.) Now, while control groups may exist for conclusive evidence on recent artifacts(those that were passed down from generation to generation and have a clear time or origin that has been documented or communicated through word of mouth, irrelevant to scientific experimentation), there is no such control group(standard, factually proven basis of comparison) for ancient artifacts that have been recently discovered. Who are we to say that carbon reacts in the same pattern on objects, today, that it would react on objects from thousands of years ago? That is certainly a huge assumption without an ounce of factual evidence to support it. We could say that it is a reasonable assumption, but we can NOT say that it is indisputable factual evidence, since it lacks any control group(proven standard of comparison) that we can use to factually declare similarities. Am I suggesting the possibility of the evolution of carbon? Well, that is one possible explanation, but another would be that the pattern that we currently observe, while maintaining consistency over objects that we can factually date, may not have that same consistency over objects from long in the past. Honestly, I’m not an expert in science, but common sense should be enough to tell us that there would be only two “genuine” methods to determine an ancient artifact’s age. 1. If it was passed down from generation to generation with clear records kept, requiring no science. 2. If the supposed time frame of the object had another object that was passed down from generation to generation with clear records kept, and both the “proven” object and the suspected object reacted in the exact same way to the carbon dating. Again, I’m not an expert in science. Common sense just tells me that what I mentioned above is a major flaw with carbon dating. If I am missing something in my understanding, someone please correct me without scientific jargon, and explain how carbon dating could possibly be a legitimate science, as it applies to ancient artifacts. Thank You.
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rossum
Guest
There is a good article on radiometric dating in general by Roger Weins: Radiometric Dating - A Christian Perspective. That will give you a good background on the different radiometric methods.
rossum
You are right that science needs to calibrate its dating methods. I am aware of three long term calibrations for Carbon dating. The first is tree ring data - by counting tree rings we can determine how old a piece of wood is. By taking a small sample from the right ring we can get a carbon date which allows us to calibrate the carbon date with a real date. The second is Lake Suigetsu in Japan which has a series of annual layers (varves) going back for 100,000 years. These varves contain organic material and so can be carbon dated as with the tree rings. Third is annual layers of ice in the Greenland ice cap - pollen in the ice can be carbon dated to compare with the layer count. Carbon dating is good for about 50,000 years ago, maybe 75,000 years with very sensitive equipment and a good sample. Tree ring data goes back about 10,000 years, Lake Suigetsu goes back about 200,000 years (the older varves are too old for carbon dating) and the Greenland ice data goes back about 123,000 years - again too far for the earliest levels to be carbon dated. We have well established methods for calibrating carbon dates in the relevant timescale. You also need to be aware that all three different calibration methods give the same results.
You need to read more. If you want to know what the decay rate for carbon was 50,000 years ago then look at a star 50,000 light years away. Astronomers have checked decay rates for many distant astronomical objects and in all cases the decay rates are the same as measured now. There has been no change in the decay rate of carbon in the relevant timescale.
There are no assumptions. There is factual experimental and observational evidence to back up carbon dating.
Evolution applies to populations of living organisms. It does not apply to carbon atoms. It is not possible that the physical properties of carbon have changed because we have measured the properties of carbon in distant astronomical objects.
rossum
B
buffalo
Guest
Sure. All is possible. What if the garden of Eden is in another dimension and Adam and Eve lost the ability to live in and/or perceive this dimension.
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Trinity1984
Guest
Some wild thoughts being slung around here!
Hahaha…
Hahaha…
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