Was this a valid Liturgy of the Eucharist?

[viktor_aleksndr]

i would stick to to what the GIRM stated that no other prayer should be invented by the priest or a piano accompaniment for other songs not in the eucharistic prayer that was allowed.

Piano accompaniment can be allowed like in consecration but the people should not sing or anything thing during consecration.

The people should only speak or sung during the start of eucahristic prayer which is "the Lord be with you… Lift your hearts… etc., the holy holy holy,and the great amen. Thats all.

 

[mgy100]

Muledog and Dropper
You are the best example of knowing everything. I’m glad you provide facts, sources, and knowledge. Like I said, if you really think this is true… it must be because you two said it is…
ask that question over at the Eastern Christian forum.

 

[Dropper]

mgy100:

Muledog and Dropper
You are the best example of knowing everything. I’m glad you provide facts, sources, and knowledge. Like I said, if you really think this is true… it must be because you two said it is…
ask that question over at the Eastern Christian forum.

I have no problem with Eastern Catholics in union with the Church (That’s the Roman Catholic Church). Orthodox Liturgies are indeed illicit, though valid.

The Orthodox are schismatic. We didn’t seperate from them, they seperated from us. The belief in primacy of the See of Peter is one of the major beliefs that seperates us from them (the Filoque is another big one). I pray that one day they will cease to be schismatic and come back into union with the one, true Church.

And no, I do not know everything nor do I claim to.

 

[SMHW]

Elzee:

I don’t see yet where this clarifies whether or not the priest/congregation sing during the elevations? For example, in EPII, it’s noted like this:
(priest) Take this, all of you, and eat it;
this is my body which will be given up for you.

***All: ***Jesus has given his life for us.

Is the ‘All’’ response supposed to be sung (with music) during the elevations, before, after?? Does it matter?

Sorry this isn’t clear to me yet, but like you said, I have a lot to learn. Thanks!

I don’t have a full answer for you either. You’d probably have to obtain the actual publication. But based on the Masses where I have seen this type of Eucharistic prayer, it is designed for a rather low-key elevation where the priest sings, “…will be given up for you,” immediately raises the host for a second (at most), and is probably genuflecting by the time the accompanist is playing the introductory chord for the acclamation.

You are probably used to the elevation being rather dramatic, probably with bells, lasting for a few seconds, and with a pause afterwards for silent prayer.

That would not be the case with this Eucharistic Prayer. It goes very quickly. If the children are singing the acclamation while the host is still raised it is because the priest is extending the elevation, not because the children came in early.

I still question the appropriateness of the piano playing while the priest is singing. It is appropriate (and probably needed by the children) for accompaniment during the responses/acclamations, regardless of how many there might be.

 

[Teresita]

I’m interested that so many of you seem to admire the Eucharistic Prayer in the Liturgies for Children. My middle son (the only one to become a Catholic when I did) has been exposed to these a fair bit, as our parish priest uses them in the evening Masses for the children preparing for their First Holy Communion. He has always loathed these Preces: he finds them patronising and trivial. I think that the whole idea of them, frankly, was mistaken, and based on an erroneous understanding of children and their psychological, intellectual and spiritual development.

Sue

 

[mgy100]

I usually don’t repy to posts like yours. But your ignorance of history shines brightly in your ethnocentric post. I urge you to please read and learn about what you post before you setting forth a decree that people are in schism. Your posts are rude and offensive in the fact that you label people schismatic and illicit. You have no authority to do so especially when coupled with your lack of knowledge per the Orthodox situation. If you have solid proof of your belief please cite your sources. And just because I disagree with you doesn’t mean I have anything against you. It is a complicated situation and one I hope you read into and learn more about.

 

[muledog]

mgy100:

Muledog and Dropper
You are the best example of knowing everything. I’m glad you provide facts, sources, and knowledge. Like I said, if you really think this is true… it must be because you two said it is…
ask that question over at the Eastern Christian forum.

Maybe you should take that big chip off of your shoulder.

I never said I know everything. Maybe you can provide a concrete example through documentation that proves your points.

I’m sorry that you feel this way.

 

[SMHW]

Teresita:

I’m interested that so many of you seem to admire the Eucharistic Prayer in the Liturgies for Children. My middle son (the only one to become a Catholic when I did) has been exposed to these a fair bit, as our parish priest uses them in the evening Masses for the children preparing for their First Holy Communion. He has always loathed these Preces: he finds them patronising and trivial. I think that the whole idea of them, frankly, was mistaken, and based on an erroneous understanding of children and their psychological, intellectual and spiritual development.

Sue

First of all, I have no particular preference for one Eucharistic Prayer over another.

But I have met priests (one of them a Liturgy instructor at a seminary) who apparently feel that most of the adult population is at the level of the children to whom such Eucharistic Prayers are supposedly aimed. They seem to think that the Mass parts for Children should be available for use with adults. What this suggests to me is that there may be some members of the clergy who may find the standard Eucharistic Prayers to be too “mature” for themselves.

 

[Joysong]

Teresita,

He has always loathed these Preces: he finds them patronising and trivial. I think that the whole idea of them, frankly, was mistaken, and based on an erroneous understanding of children and their psychological, intellectual and spiritual development.

So your son* loathed* these liturgies? And you let him rant without correction? It sounds to me from the bolded part of the quote above that you agreed with him and promoted his dissatisfaction, rather than lead him to a more positive reverence, respect, and understanding of it. We bear an awesome responsibility as role models to transmit the faith to our children in a way that does not demean it. Think about whether or not he observed you as one.

Carole

 

[muledog]

Joysong:

Dear Elzee,

This whole topic has been a springboard for learning, and I thank you for beginning it to us. After searching the following references, I believe your pastor was acting according to the GIRM. I can see where people who read this document on their own without recourse to the pastor, might form misconceptions and think everything is an abuse. Dear God, help our priests to bear with us.

Carole

Dear Carole,

I agree with you for the most part. If the majority of the congregation were young children, and the organ was silent during the presidential prayers of the priest (including the Eucharistic Prayer), then I think the pastor was totally within bounds with what he did.

A great resourse to help understand the difference between Mass celebrated with adults and Mass celebrated with prepubscent children would be the Directory for Masses with Children.

This document supplements the General Instruction for Masses celebrated with a majority of young children. Some of the pertinent passages are as follows:

• “The Directory is concerned with children who have not yet entered the period of preadolescence.” (no. 6)
• “[A]part from adaptations that are necessary becuse of the children’s age, the result should not be entirely special rites, markedly different from the Order of Mass celebrated with a congregation. The purpose of the various elements should always correspond with what is said in the General Instruction of teh Roman Missal on individual points, even if at times for pastorl reasons an absolute identity cannot be insisted upon.” (no. 21)
• “[T]hree eucharistic prayers for children were published by the Congregation for Divine Worship on 1 November 1974. These prayers may be used at Masses in which the majority of those present are children in those countries in which the conference of bishops has approved their use.” (footnote 47)

I would expect the an update to the Directory in the near future, given that it is based on the translation guidelines given in Comme le prevoit, which was superceded by Liturgiam Authenticum in 1997, and the fact that numerous liturgical documents and a revised GIRM have also been published since 1974.

 

[Elzee]

muledog:

• “[A]part from adaptations that are necessary becuse of the children’s age, the result should not be entirely special rites, markedly different from the Order of Mass celebrated with a congregation. The purpose of the various elements should always correspond with what is said in the General Instruction of teh Roman Missal on individual points, even if at times for pastorl reasons an absolute identity cannot be insisted upon.” (no. 21)

I’m not sure the part I bolded above is entirely being met* (in my opinion)*, unless I’m misunderstanding it. EPII in the first link above (of the 3 links provided by axolotl), with a lot of interjections by the congregation, is, to me, markedly different.

Are these variances for children allowed in other countries, or is this an adaptation only for the United States?

I guess I’ll throw in my opinion here…my personal preference would be not to use these. I know they are approved and can be used - I’m just stating a personal preference. I agree some of the words are beautiful for children, but what I don’t care for, in addition to some of the wording, is that I think they change the ‘rhythm’ of the Liturgy of the Eucharist (for example EPII). I’ve always loved the ideal of the universality of the Catholic Church. One aspect of this used to be, no matter where you went in the world, you would know what to expect when you attended a Catholic Mass. You felt at home. You knew what to expect. Ritual brings comfort so we can prepare our hearts for what is about to happen. The Church strives so hard for this oneness, and our Liturgy is the perfect place to manifest it. But little by little, I see this beautiful display of oneness vanishing. Some say it’s progress and I understand their reasonings and good intentions. And I agree we need a certain amount of flexibility on some things. But sometimes I think progress is best realized by staying the same in a changing world.
I probably got slightly off topic on my own thread…sorry.

 

[mgy100]

It was sheer ignorance and ethnocentrism in what was posted. It was a one sided and incorrect post that was offensive.
The proof of fact rests on those that made the statements in the first place. I shouldn’t have to provide facts and sources to reply to a statement made by others that lacks any sort of intelligence, sources and facts. You provide that first since you agreed with Dropper’s statement.
Like I said, please post that comment in the Eastern Christian forum. I’m sure you will get more info, sources, and facts that needed.

 

[Joysong]

Dear Mike,

I agree with you for the most part. If the majority of the congregation were young children, and the organ was silent during the presidential prayers of the priest (including the Eucharistic Prayer), then I think the pastor was totally within bounds with what he did.

Scratching my head as to why you addressed this to me??? I was not at that mass mentioned by Elzee, but it appears to have been a children’s liturgy at which there was musical accompaniment during the sung Eucharistic Prayer. Did you notice the links I searched in order to learn more about this? It does seem that there is a lawful musical accompaniment for this, and I would think before publishing and selling it, these guidelines would have been fully researched. Otherwise, what priest would ever permit music to accompany him? (I’m not speaking about the regular adult liturgy.)

Nevertheless, I have the feeling that you are sharing guidelines for adult liturgies, which do call for musical silence. But it seems to me there is an exception which permits it for children’s. That is what we are trying to understand. What is wrong with trusting the priest to know what is and what is not permitted?

My only concern is that without full knowledge of what is permissible, someone might brand the presiders of a liturgy (priest, organist) as being so wrong that one leaves the church in a scandalized huff, and then tells everyone else how bad it was. Very big sigh With all my heart, I would hope any of us who jump the gun to sniff out abuses that aren’t really there, takes a long, hard, responsible look at the harm that is done to foster disunity and faithlessness.

Honest questioning is different, and I commend it, but I would hope that the clergy, to whom Our Lord entrusted His liturgy, are consulted as the final authority — even if one has to seek a second opinion to be sure. Too many loose canons running amuck do so much disservice to the Church.

Maybe it is just Our Lord who inspires this deep striving for unity, for it was His priestly prayer the night before He died.

Nice to chat with you,
Carole

 

[Joysong]

Hi Elzee,

I’ve always loved the ideal of the universality of the Catholic Church. One aspect of this used to be, no matter where you went in the world, you would know what to expect when you attended a Catholic Mass. You felt at home. You knew what to expect. Ritual brings comfort so we can prepare our hearts for what is about to happen. The Church strives so hard for this oneness, and our Liturgy is the perfect place to manifest it.

I hear your heart :tiphat: and these are beautiful sentiments! I pretty much agree with you, as a matter of personal preference. It is not easy to adjust to the wishes of others when they are counter to our true feelings. It has taken me a lot of growth in patience to overcome my natural inclination to become indignant and strive to change things to my way of liking. Whenever I feel my hair rising, I recognize the source of it. Sometimes, I think Our Lord is lovingly stretching us beyond our comfort zone to grow in spiritual detachment, so OUR position does not become an idol.

As a comical example of what I mean, there are people who get rattled whenever they come to mass and find someone else has taken THEIR pew seat. Is that detachment?

Bless you,
Carole

 

[Dropper]

mgy100:

It was sheer ignorance and ethnocentrism in what was posted.

There is only one side. The side of right. The side of the Roman Catholic Church. I don’t think that my posts are ethnocentric, as I am not talking about all Eastern Christians, but of the schismatic Orthodox.

I know the history of the schism. Is the Roman Church totally innocent where the schism is concerned? No I don’t think so, but is no excuse for the Orthodox to seperate themselves from Rome. I seriously considered Orthodoxy when I was investigating the Church before I converted. I was drawn to the Roman Church because I saw a line unbroken since the Apostles. I saw that the Orthodox nearly had that, but fell short.

 

[mgy100]

I suggest you study the Ecumenical councils.

 

[muledog]

mgy100:

It was sheer ignorance and ethnocentrism in what was posted. It was a one sided and incorrect post that was offensive.
The proof of fact rests on those that made the statements in the first place. I shouldn’t have to provide facts and sources to reply to a statement made by others that lacks any sort of intelligence, sources and facts. You provide that first since you agreed with Dropper’s statement.
Like I said, please post that comment in the Eastern Christian forum. I’m sure you will get more info, sources, and facts that needed.

If it will sooth your anger, I have begun a thread in the Eastern Christian forum to explain the difference between valid and licit, and how they pertain to the celebration of the Divine Liturgy in the Eastern Orthodox churches.

Everyone is more than welcome to join in on the conversation.

 

[netmilsmom]

Joysong:

So your son* loathed* these liturgies? And you let him rant without correction? It sounds to me from the bolded part of the quote above that you agreed with him and promoted his dissatisfaction, rather than lead him to a more positive reverence, respect, and understanding of it. We bear an awesome responsibility as role models to transmit the faith to our children in a way that does not demean it. Think about whether or not he observed you as one.

As we have Life Teen masses to accomodate Modernist young people, there should be no reason why this young man should not have his feelings validated. He felt patronized by the Children’s liturgy. Maybe he is more mature and deserves to be taken to the Adult Liturgy.
Sorry, to my five and eight year olds, the Children’s liturgy at the old church was silly. It made them giggle. I want them to learn the fullness of their love of Christ, not have to fight their emotions. If they are too old for the Children’s liturgy, better we tell them how proud we are that they are growing up!

 

[muledog]

I found an interesting article on children’s Masses over at the Adoremus website. It’s a three-part series, and it is, what you might call, “thought-provoking.”

Part I
Part II
Part III

 

[Teresita]

Joysong:

Teresita,

So your son* loathed* these liturgies? And you let him rant without correction? It sounds to me from the bolded part of the quote above that you agreed with him and promoted his dissatisfaction, rather than lead him to a more positive reverence, respect, and understanding of it. We bear an awesome responsibility as role models to transmit the faith to our children in a way that does not demean it. Think about whether or not he observed you as one.

Carole

Rant? You were there? He isn’t a ranter or a moaner, unlike his mother - you’re quite right that I’m rather too good at showing my feelings! But I didn’t encourage him in this particular reaction.
No, he showed (and shows) his dislike of these liturgies by avoiding them wherever possible. He rarely gets the choice of which Mass to attend, as he sings in the boys’ choir: when he can choose, he goes to the Latin Mass (our church has an 11 am Latin Mass - the modern rite, that is). His dislike of the children’s liturgies, from what he tells me now (he’s 17, so is able to articulate his reaction much better than when he was 9) is based on the sense that the infinite glory and greatness of God is rejected in favour of a sort of comfortable grandad God who gives out sweeties.

But the problem goes much further than the children’s liturgies. I can’t help feeling that the same motivation which created the latter (“The little dears can’t understand all that tricky stuff about sacrifice and sin and so on, so let’s make it all nice and simple for them”) has also been at work in many of the homilies and adult catechisis one hears. I teach for a living; and while it’s true that one uses language which one’s pupils will understand, it’s equally necessary to move them on each day and week into areas which they don’t yet understand. The children’s liturgies, just by existing, fail to do this. They turn ICHTHUS into fish fingers.