Was this "On Purpose'?

[bubba451]

What has happened?

His Holiness began to first turn the ship with the MP and then His Holiness pushed through the lifting of the excommunication of the bishops. That was FANTASTIC NEWS for both the SSPX bishops and for the Church. That brought the bishops back into the fold of the Church(only)and resolved a big sticking point to start real, productive conversations regarding the canonical status and issues of the Society and its’ members.

Finally. We can begin to get at the root of the problem. Tradition is now welcome (admittedly, grudgingly) back in the Church and we are working to resolve THE issue. It’s impossible to talk to a group and hear their points when you threw them out before there could be meaningful discussions. The lifting of the excommunications RESOLVED THIS. Traditional Catholic everywhere felt that finally we were going to be heard or at least being given an opportunity to be heard.

Now after much progress and patience on BOTH sides, Bishop Williamson has put his foot in it AGAIN. Frankly I’d like to give His Excellency a swift kick in the rear. That said --EVERYONE knows we have other bishops and priests (I mean particularly non-traditional) who have done plenty of odd or controversial things, so I guess there ought to be a long line. However, His Excellency, in particular, has seemed to specialize in and relish drawing controversy like a lightning rod. He brings up one of his odd personal thoughts very publicly and sets the WHOLE THING back YEARS, if not making it impossible, EVER. He has completely restored and reinvigorated the entrenched resistance to the Traditionalists by his comments. As a direct result of his comments we have the Vatican’s’ most recent statement. They were showing restraint up to this point to their credit. After the comments were released and the outcry began, the Vatican really had no choice but to comment as they have.

Do the SSPX or even the Traditionalists remaining in the Church expect to have meaningful conversations at this point? How could ANYBODY reasonably be heard? Nobody wants to talk to us except to distance themselves from us and him. I’m surprised they didn’t throw a shoe from Rome. I’m not sure they still won’t. Even if we have great fundemental theological points on our side, how many will listen after all this? His Holiness risked a lot to even consider doing this great thing. Bishop Fellay and the individual members of the Society have prayed and worked diligently to accomplish this. Many remaining Traditionalists in the Church have prayed for and desired this. Much was hoped for, but it appears that we have purposely sabotaged any possibility of discussions of the REAL issues for Traditional Catholics.

I do not care if the Swedish TV, Lesbian Activists the CIA, KGB, or the German state “conspired” to get him to say this or if people were “out to get" His Excellency,** he said what he said**. He’s supposed to be a smart guy, right? He is certainly capable of declining comment, particularly given what’s going on.

Did he do this on PURPOSE to cause any potential restoration of canonical status to fail before it started? I fear that is what his remarks have may cost us.

 

[anjoh66]

Well one thing is for sure.

Never has any swedish tv broadcasted interview got so much international attention.

 

[cathguy]

What has happened?

His Holiness began to first turn the ship with the MP and then His Holiness pushed through the lifting of the excommunication of the bishops. That was FANTASTIC NEWS for both the SSPX bishops and for the Church. That brought the bishops back into the fold of the Church(only)and resolved a big sticking point to start real, productive conversations regarding the canonical status and issues of the Society and its’ members.

Finally. We can begin to get at the root of the problem. Tradition is now welcome (admittedly, grudgingly) back in the Church and we are working to resolve THE issue. It’s impossible to talk to a group and hear their points when you threw them out before there could be meaningful discussions. The lifting of the excommunications RESOLVED THIS. Traditional Catholic everywhere felt that finally we were going to be heard or at least being given an opportunity to be heard.

Now after much progress and patience on BOTH sides, Bishop Williamson has put his foot in it AGAIN. Frankly I’d like to give His Excellency a swift kick in the rear. That said --EVERYONE knows we have other bishops and priests (I mean particularly non-traditional) who have done plenty of odd or controversial things, so I guess there ought to be a long line. However, His Excellency, in particular, has seemed to specialize in and relish drawing controversy like a lightning rod. He brings up one of his odd personal thoughts very publicly and sets the WHOLE THING back YEARS, if not making it impossible, EVER. He has completely restored and reinvigorated the entrenched resistance to the Traditionalists by his comments. As a direct result of his comments we have the Vatican’s’ most recent statement. They were showing restraint up to this point to their credit. After the comments were released and the outcry began, the Vatican really had no choice but to comment as they have.

Do the SSPX or even the Traditionalists remaining in the Church expect to have meaningful conversations at this point? How could ANYBODY reasonably be heard? Nobody wants to talk to us except to distance themselves from us and him. I’m surprised they didn’t throw a shoe from Rome. I’m not sure they still won’t. Even if we have great fundemental theological points on our side, how many will listen after all this? His Holiness risked a lot to even consider doing this great thing. Bishop Fellay and the individual members of the Society have prayed and worked diligently to accomplish this. Many remaining Traditionalists in the Church have prayed for and desired this. Much was hoped for, but it appears that we have purposely sabotaged any possibility of discussions of the REAL issues for Traditional Catholics.

I do not care if the Swedish TV, Lesbian Activists the CIA, KGB, or the German state “conspired” to get him to say this or if people were “out to get" His Excellency,** he said what he said**. He’s supposed to be a smart guy, right? He is certainly capable of declining comment, particularly given what’s going on.

Did he do this on PURPOSE to cause any potential restoration of canonical status to fail before it started? I fear that is what his remarks have may cost us.

I agree wholeheartedly with you brother. What a very good question.

You know what? I don’t think Williamson did this on purpose. And anyone will tell you that I am probably one “Bp” Williamson’s biggest critics on this forum.

I think he is just loopy. Rabbi Kula, A Jewish Rabbi, defending the Pope, and criticizing the response of groups like the ADL put it this way:

"…This will have ‘serious implications for Catholic-Jewish relations’ and there will be a ‘political cost for the Vatican’ they threatened. And from Israel, the Chief Rabbinate in Israel, one of the most corrupt religious establishments in Western democracies, entered the fray calling into doubt the Pope’s impending visit to Israel. All this hubbub and anxious lashing out about an internal Church matter regarding the sort of crabby, crotchety, trivial, unknown sort of jerk – the ratty uncle who embarrasses you every time he is in public—who we all recognize exists in our communities. "

I really think that about covers it.

We all have people who exist in our communities, and families, that embarrass us every time they are in public. Williamson is one of those figures. One person referred to him as “the Borat of the schismatic Catholic right.”

While I disagree about the schismatic part (the SSPX are in the Church, even if our ties are currently strained), I agree with the rest of the sentence.

He is just loopy. I honestly don’t think he is bright enough to do this on purpose to undermine the Church.

He HAS done serious harm to Tradition however. The only way we can minimize that harm is by letting everybody know that there are faithful traditional Catholics who will not abide this sort of lunacy.

 

[BrendanD]

Are you asking if Bp. Williamson timed his (moronic) statements to coincide with the lifting of the excommunications? That’s impossible-- His Excellency gave that interview months ago. It seems to me that the media intentionally held onto the interview and waited for the lifting of the excommunications to publish it-- implicating the Holy Father in the situation and giving an appearance that the two are somehow related, even though they happened months apart and had nothing to do with each other.

 

[LeroyCRHP]

I’m still shocked at what Williamson said. It is almost like he meant to knock over the apple cart.

 

[bubba451]

“That’s impossible-- snip- It seems to me that the media intentionally held onto the interview and waited for the lifting of the excommunications to publish it-- snip, even though they happened months apart and had nothing to do with each other.”

No, not really timed per se, I understand it was given some time ago–but how did Swedish TV (admittedly not the brightest group) KNOW when the excommunications would be lifted? Unlikely as well, isn’t it?

It appears to be either the dumbest comment EVER (considering the state of things–negotiations have been going on BEFORE the lifting of the excommunications and His Excellency MUST have been aware of this) OR he did it intentionally to prevent the possibilty of ever resolving the current situation.

Point is that he has put Traditionalism back in the Dark Ages after seeing the light for the first time in a LONG time and I fear, ruined the opportunity to be fairly heard on the legitimate issues.

 

[Tidus]

“That’s impossible-- snip- It seems to me that the media intentionally held onto the interview and waited for the lifting of the excommunications to publish it-- snip, even though they happened months apart and had nothing to do with each other.”

No, not really timed per se, I understand it was given some time ago–but how did Swedish TV (admittedly not the brightest group) KNOW when the excommunications would be lifted? Unlikely as well, isn’t it?

It appears to be either the dumbest comment EVER (considering the state of things–negotiations have been going on BEFORE the lifting of the excommunications and His Excellency MUST have been aware of this) OR** he did it intentionally to prevent the possibilty of ever resolving the current situation.**

Point is that he has put Traditionalism back in the Dark Ages after seeing the light for the first time in a LONG time and I fear, ruined the opportunity to be fairly heard on the legitimate issues.

this

 

[cathguy]

“That’s impossible-- snip- It seems to me that the media intentionally held onto the interview and waited for the lifting of the excommunications to publish it-- snip, even though they happened months apart and had nothing to do with each other.”

No, not really timed per se, I understand it was given some time ago–but how did Swedish TV (admittedly not the brightest group) KNOW when the excommunications would be lifted? Unlikely as well, isn’t it?

It appears to be either the dumbest comment EVER (considering the state of things–negotiations have been going on BEFORE the lifting of the excommunications and His Excellency MUST have been aware of this) OR he did it intentionally to prevent the possibilty of ever resolving the current situation.

Point is that he has put Traditionalism back in the Dark Ages after seeing the light for the first time in a LONG time and I fear, ruined the opportunity to be fairly heard on the legitimate issues.

Let us pray this is not the case. Bishop Williamson has done incredible harm yes; but scandal will occur.

I hate to sound like a pollyanna, but good can and will come from this. Where the SSPX is right (the Mass of the Ages, the beauty of Catholic Tradition etc.) its return to the fold will be a great blessing to itself, and to the Church as a whole.

Where Bp. Williamson (and unfortunately none too few followers) are very, very, very, wrong, this scandal will serve as a correction for those who have ears to hear. If this isn’t an invitation to give up the hate and lunacy of anti-semitism, nothing is.

 

[BrendanD]

No, not really timed per se, I understand it was given some time ago–but how did Swedish TV (admittedly not the brightest group) KNOW when the excommunications would be lifted? Unlikely as well, isn’t it?

The lifting of the excommunications was reported by several bloggers days before it was “official.” The Swedish media surely would have known about that. The question is-- why the heck would a news reporter take an interview, and then shelve it for several months? Only to release at such a “convenient” time all of a sudden?

Of course, the mainstream media reports don’t mention that the interview was made in November. They make it sound like the lifting of the excommunications was made the same day this interview was made and released.

 

[BrendanD]

It appears to be either the dumbest comment EVER (considering the state of things–negotiations have been going on BEFORE the lifting of the excommunications and His Excellency MUST have been aware of this) OR he did it intentionally to prevent the possibilty of ever resolving the current situation.

That’s quite a thing to suggest about a Bishop without any evidence. It goes against everything the SSPX has been doing to work things out with Rome (rosary crusades, etc.) And certainly doesn’t fit in with his personal apology to the Holy Father, or his obedience to Bp. Fellay’s telling him to keep his trap shut.

 

[mystified]

Being ordained, in the normal way or in an irregular way, does not immunize a man from “foot in mouth disease”.
It appears that Bp. Williamson has done a mea maxima culpa, and asked for forgiveness.
Now if he will try to put his brain in gear before starting his mouth…

 

[bubba451]

That’s quite a thing to suggest about a Bishop without any evidence. It goes against everything…

Not suggesting–asking. On the other hand, you have to admit that was quite a thing to actually let fall out of one’s mouth and more, to say out loud (on camera) for an educated man. How many years of school to be a priest? Dealt with the press before as a Bishop of the Church, have we?

I agree, it goes against what has been long worked for AND prayed for, but what other options do we have given his apology is at best weak and and given the position in which his comments placed His Holiness, not to mention Bp. Fellay and the Society.

I’m angry about this because he damaged the cause of Tradition. Now no matter what good he has done or what good reasons the Society may have for saying anything about the real issues that urgently need to be addressed (i.e. VII), they will be immediately discarded out of hand as lunatic fringe comments and no progress will be made. He has played the Society into the very hands of the “neo-modernists” for WHAT? Simply put, the only problem is that it didn’t just affect him. It affected all Traditional Catholics. I pray it’s not the nail in the coffin to further conversations that it appears to be