Was Vatican II a success?

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And this is very close to what I mean when I say people aren’t able to appreciate symbols of the sacred…

Here is an excerpt from an article on the silent canon:

A Homily Preached At The Launch Of CIEL U.K.
At St. James’ Spanish Place, London
Saturday 1st March 1997

by a priest of the Oratory

"When someone attends the classical rite for the first time, they are often surprised that what is obviously the most important part of the liturgical action is done in silence. Even at sung Mass, as today, the consecration happens in silence. It is true, regrettably, that at certain times in our liturgical history there have been abuses in this connexion, organ music overlaying the consecration and other indignities. Nevertheless, the classical pattern of the traditional Roman rite is that after the Sanctus has been sung, silence descends, broken only by the bell. This is the essential glory of the classical rite, the very heart of the matter. I do believe that in our noisy, clamorous modern world, this silence is even more necessary than it was for earlier generations.

The reason for the silence is, that at a very early stage in the Church’s liturgical awareness, it was realized that the miracles of grace which occur during the canon should not risk trivialization by being spoken out loud as if the sacred words which effected these miracles were simply in the normal run of ordinary speech. The mystery of the Real Presence, the miracle of transubstantiation, the subsequent pleading of the oblation, all this is the stuff of heaven, heaven come down to earth. Perhaps we would better say that in the canon, earth is raised to heaven. In the canon, the worshipping Church does not sink into silence. No, the truth is, that we rise into silence, a contemplative, anointed silence, over which the Holy Ghost is hovering, a timeless silence which breathes the life of heaven.

The pious and traditional instinct of the Church is that the Lord’s astounding words over bread and cup should be breathed again only in a hushed and reverent whisper by the unworthy human agent of the miracle, the priest who is acting in persona Christi. These are not words to say aloud, much less, heaven forbid, to sing aloud. These are words of love, words to whisper in awe and trembling. These are the words of the new and everlasting covenant which changed the world for ever. These are the words which make the Mystery of Faith accessible to humankind, at every moment of every day, until the Lord returns.

In the canon of the Mass, after the consecration, the veil which separates this world from paradise is never so thin, never so slight. We may recall here Mgr.Ronald Knox’s felicitous comparison of the eucharistic presence with “the window in the wall”. With the eyes of faith we are placed so as to be able to look beyond this world, deep into that transcendent reality which is Christ. Indeed, for a few precious moments, the Son of God will come among us; Eternity Himself. Eternity in Person makes Himself present. The silence of the canon which surrounds that presence helps us to appreciate the timelessness of Christ. For the Lord Who becomes present is the living Lord, the Lord of resurrection, no longer bound by His own laws of space and time. He is the power, the strength, the beauty that fills and animates all creation. His majesty is to be waited on in silence, and adored in silence.

In the silence of the canon, the external signs of the liturgical action become even more poignant: the genuflexions, the manual gestures of the celebrant, the repeated signs of the cross over the oblata. These numerous signs of the cross made over the oblata after the consecration are just as important, indeed I venture to suggest perhaps even more important, than those made before the consecration. After the elements of bread and wine have been changed into Christ Himself, the Church repeatedly signs them with the sign of the cross, not of course in order to bless them, for all possible blessing has already occurred in the miracle of transubstantiation. No, the crossings are to designate the oblata, again and again, as the matter of the sacrifice, the very same body and blood that were offered on the cross, now glorified and truly present upon the altar. I am convinced that to omit the crossings after the consecration risks weakening our faith in the identity of the sacrifice of the Mass with the sacrifice of the Cross. In the silence of the canon, that total identity is explicitly affirmed, with the liturgical gestures of the celebrant proclaiming the Cross as powerfully as any words could utter. There are so many things that we should know and say about the Holy Sacrifice. "
 
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SnorterLuster:
I believe I have pondered on what would have happened had Vatican II not occurred, but I come up with a different conclusion than you do. At least as I remember the times, the mainstream Protestant churches had already started the liberalization of their churches and started losing members as they increasingly tried to become relevant. About the same time Pope John called for a new Council. Many, both religious and laity in the Church were apprehensive that any attempt to make the Church modern or more relevant would lead us down the road that the mainstream Protestants were already travelling.

As I think about the last forty years, it seems to me that the Church is growing in Africa, but losing people in the rest of the world. Mexico and South America were bastions of orthodox Catholicism, but now the fundamentalist Protestant churches are making great inroads in those areas. Twenty years ago, Brazil was 90+% Catholic. Today it is 70% and in 15 years it is estimated that it will be majority fundamental Protestant. Europe is a basket case and the U.S., while retaining membership, is not much better off.

So the question remains, are the renewels and reforms of Vatican II leading more people to salvation and therefore a success, or are more and more people leaving the Church and losing their souls in the process. Not to even talk about the people that enjoy going to Mass, but don’t believe the Church has a right to tell them how to live their life.
Now, listen. Don’t be pointing out facts to people. :tsktsk:You’ll be accused of denying it’s springtime in our Church, even though we’re all standing here shivering, in 3 feet of snow, with all of our extremities frostbitten.

Some people should just buy a parrot and train it to say handy things like:

“VATICAN II, STUNNING SUCCESS!”

“IT’S NOT THE COUNCIL, IT’S THE SPIRIT THAT’S BAD!”

“IT’S A NEW SPRINGTIME!”

“EVERYONE LOVES THE NEW MASS!”

“SHUT UP, YOU TRADITIONALIST NUT! YOU’RE RAINING ON MY SPRINGTIME!”

“PRETTY BIRD!”

It’ll save wear and tear on their vocal chords.
 
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mcliffor:
Most modern liturgists, if we can call them that, have views on the liturgy that you wouldn’t hear in Rome. The changes they encourage were not mandated by the council or any official document for that matter. **Now here we completely agree. The word “liturgist” should strike fear in every Catholic’s heart. **Talk to your average teenager after Mass one day. For that matter, talk to his parents. I bet they consider themselves loyal people, but how do they feel about birth control? Abortion? I’d call these people disobedient, and their disobedience demonstrates a lack of respect for the Church hierarchy. **AND HERE’S THE DISCONNECT and here’s where the Council and the Pope and the Mass get a walk, as far as I’m concerned. There is NO credible evidence that the switch to the Pauline Mass from the TLM has anything at ALL to do with the faltering belief in the Church’s teachings on abortion or birth control or on any of her moral teaching. It doesn’t even make a tempting straw man argument. There MAY be correlation (it began to happen at the same time), but there’s no proof of causation (that it’s the result of the same event) and we will never, NEVER, get to the root cause of this problem (horrible, relativistic catechesis, heretical priests, even the false “spirit” of the Council) if we continue to lay blame where it doesn’t belong. It’s like me trying to blame my student’s grades on the endangered state of the California condor, logically speaking. **

When I go to Mass at Villanova, and I only go when it’s impossible to find another mass, people are talking so loudly before mass that I can’t even pray. So many churches are like this, and this we can read as a lack of repect for the sacredness of the space they are in. **Spirit or council? **

Look at how modern churches are designed and churches from before WWII are renovated. Do these changes work towards transcendence or just the opposite? Then I go to the Ukrainian Catholic Church near by. You wouldn’t believe the difference. You can’t tell me Roman Catholics today have the same respect for the sacred as they did before VII or that reforms done in the name of VII have done anything to foster this respect. Agreed, spirit or council?

My point is that the Church, or certain leaders in the Church, was calling it’s very being into question when it took the liturgical principles that it had held sacred for 1500 years and said they were no longer appropriate overnight. Latin, Gregorian Chant, polyphony, incense, gold vestments, and relics are now frowned upon by most of the faithful, priests, and bishops. The list goes on. **Look, I don’t ever think the Church will be “relevant” as the world defines relevance. She will only be (and will always be) relevant as Christ defines relevant. I agree that “certain leaders in the Church” attempted to make Her “relevant” and made a hash of it, generally in the areas that you mention (though I think, coming into the Church through a monastic, heremetical order, austerity and simplicity can have a regal beauty of its own, like the beauty of a desert). This can be most readily seen in the area of music. They tried to make it “relevant” and “attractive,” so they tried folk music. Trouble with “relevant” and “attractive” is that it changes, like fads and fashions have the tendency to do. They didn’t keep up and now they’re stuck with something that Joan Baez and Joanie Mitchell wouldn’t touch today unless they were really stoned. OCP cannot manage “relevant” and “attractive” because, today, that would mean a hip-hop mass or a rave mass, something only attempted by very liberal Episcopalians and Matthew Fox. They know this well enough, so they stick with the banal, rather than admitting they need to go back to "Tantum Ergo Sacramentum (see, I don’t hate Latin). **

**BUT…this is a paraphrase, I don’t know who said it, but I tend to think it makes a bit of sense, at least, that the fathers wanted to strip away those things that obscured the Mass. I would hate to turn back the clock and loose the noble simplicity and the MYSTERY (yes, I used that word and I believe it) of the Pauline rite. And I don’t think the Pauline rite is better in Latin, it’s just the Pauline rite in Latin, which I cannot understant and would have to pick my way through. Now, I know what to say. I know my part and I can say it prayerfully and mean it. I’m not advocating anything other than the reverently, egoless celebration of the normative Mass of the Church. **

By the way, I might call myself conservative, but please don’t think I’m a traditionalist.
By the way, I think I’m a traditionalist because I value the ancient, collective wisdom of the Church, of which the last five popes and the Council were a part and to which they contributed.
 
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mcliffor:
And this is very close to what I mean when I say people aren’t able to appreciate symbols of the sacred…

"When someone attends the classical rite for the first time, they are often surprised that what is obviously the most important part of the liturgical action is done in silence. Even at sung Mass, as today, the consecration happens in silence. It is true, regrettably, that at certain times in our liturgical history there have been abuses in this connexion, organ music overlaying the consecration and other indignities. Nevertheless, the classical pattern of the traditional Roman rite is that after the Sanctus has been sung, silence descends, broken only by the bell. This is the essential glory of the classical rite, the very heart of the matter. I do believe that in our noisy, clamorous modern world, this silence is even more necessary than it was for earlier generations.

The reason for the silence is, that at a very early stage in the Church’s liturgical awareness, it was realized that the miracles of grace which occur during the canon should not risk trivialization by being spoken out loud as if the sacred words which effected these miracles were simply in the normal run of ordinary speech. The mystery of the Real Presence, the miracle of transubstantiation, the subsequent pleading of the oblation, all this is the stuff of heaven, heaven come down to earth. Perhaps we would better say that in the canon, earth is raised to heaven. In the canon, the worshipping Church does not sink into silence. No, the truth is, that we rise into silence, a contemplative, anointed silence, over which the Holy Ghost is hovering, a timeless silence which breathes the life of heaven.

The pious and traditional instinct of the Church is that the Lord’s astounding words over bread and cup should be breathed again only in a hushed and reverent whisper by the unworthy human agent of the miracle, the priest who is acting in persona Christi. These are not words to say aloud, much less, heaven forbid, to sing aloud. These are words of love, words to whisper in awe and trembling. These are the words of the new and everlasting covenant which changed the world for ever. These are the words which make the Mystery of Faith accessible to humankind, at every moment of every day, until the Lord returns.

In the canon of the Mass, after the consecration, the veil which separates this world from paradise is never so thin, never so slight. We may recall here Mgr.Ronald Knox’s felicitous comparison of the eucharistic presence with “the window in the wall”. With the eyes of faith we are placed so as to be able to look beyond this world, deep into that transcendent reality which is Christ. Indeed, for a few precious moments, the Son of God will come among us; Eternity Himself. Eternity in Person makes Himself present. The silence of the canon which surrounds that presence helps us to appreciate the timelessness of Christ. For the Lord Who becomes present is the living Lord, the Lord of resurrection, no longer bound by His own laws of space and time. He is the power, the strength, the beauty that fills and animates all creation. His majesty is to be waited on in silence, and adored in silence.
In order to respond in one box, I deleted that part that had little to do with the Silent Canon (I visited the Brompton Oratory in London, it’s beautiful, you should see the altar to the English Martyrs).

I gently suggest to you that because we disagree doesn’t mean I do not have an appreciation for the symbols of the sacred. You’ve no idea what are (and I couldn’t explain) the depths of my feelings toward what occurs in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. As for what the priest of the oratory wrote, none of those “miracles of grace” are any less present or evident for having been heard by human ears. Christ’s Own Word’s of Consecration, His cry of Love to us, the single, great unending cry from the Cross, looses nothing in import nor in passion from having us, His Spousal Beloved, hear them. Now, if you wanted to make the point that we should keep silent, still and silent, all the better to hear them, that there should be spaces of silence in the Mass, I could agree. The only response we should make is a whispered “amen,” our voices subdued by breathless wonder (We had a former parochial vicar who insisted everything be said and sung with “enthusiasm” :rolleyes: ). But, no, we should hear it, all the more so that we hear it always. I’ve been walking in the halls at school and heard in my mind “On the night before He was handed over to suffering and death…took bread in His Sacred Hands…this is My Blood…do this in memory of Me” and known He was right there with me. Silence on our part, yes, but not on the priest’s, who acts in persona Christi.
 
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JNB:
hA HA. Thats funny “Crusader”. or what your previous IDs were. The Baltimore Catechism was to the point, and the Baltimore Cathechism no 4 “Crusader” was every bit as detailed as the new Cathechism is in terms of referenceing biblical source material.
Ya, hoho funny. After 16 years of education in Catholic institutions before Vatican II, I wasn’t even aware that a Baltimore Catechism number 4 even existed. In fact I found out there was a number 3 only after Vatican II when I started teaching Religous Ed classes. In college we had a course in New Testament Scripture and never once cracked a Bible. Had a course on Christian Marriage which turned out to be a course in the canon law concerning marriage, not much help there for newly weds. There was a course on the Virtues which I thought was quite good, in fact I still have the textbook.The “liturature” may have been there but I am thinking few of us laity were exposed to it. Maybe I was just wood block ignorant.

Raymond Brown, in a book titled “The Churches the Apostles Left Behind Them” made the point that whenever there is a major upheaval in a Church community several generations lose the basic knowledge of the Faith. Upheavals, like the expulsion of the Christians from the Temple and Synagogues, the Reformation/Counter Reformation, and the Post Vatican II Church result in a seperated generation or two, some of whom drive the changes to an extreme and some of whom concentrate on teaching the “new” stuff. The teaching that follows the event concentrates on the changes and assumes that everyone knows the basics; they are not taught. Vatican II illustrates Brown’s premise quite well. We have the SSPX who have stayed behind, the VOTF, Catholics for a Free Choice, and the like who drive the changes to an extreme untenable position, and the more moderate faction who are just starting to tumble to the fact that we have several generations who have not been equpped with the basics. John Paul II was quite correct in calling for a re-evangelization of those in our pews. Many are struggling along far behind the converts and reverts who know their Faith and are committed firmly to it.
 
Joe Gloor:
I’m not sure I get the context of the question, but if you are asking what’s the difference between having Pope John Paul II and an Italian Pope you must have a vary narrow world view or a short frame of historical reference.
As long as we’re in the realm of conjecture how about this:
No Polish Pope.
No successful Solidarity Movement in Poland.
No fall of the Berlin Wall.
No fall of the Soviet Union.
No end to the arms race.
During the presidency of Bill Clinton Russia decides to catch the US with it’s pants down (literally) and attacks us in a pre-emptive nuclear strike.
No you or me.
Other than that, I can’t think of a thing…
JPII was a great man, no doubt, but none of the things you’ve cited were really in his job description as leader of the Church on earth. He wasn’t charged with being a world statesman but with preserving the deposit of faith, leading us all to holiness. That’s really the essence of what he should be judged on, not political movements he may have encouraged.

Your last statement is, to be polite, a bit over the top…According to you, no Vatican II and no JPII. And then no JPII and we’d all be vaporized? That might be a good plot for a disaster movie but it is not an argument to support the success of VII.
 
It is fashionable to blame Vatican II, or at least some amorphous thing called “the spirit of Vatican II” for everything bad that has happened in the Church in the past 40 years. This simplistic notion shows ignorance of the facts that:
  1. The “bad things” mentioned are almost entirely confined to rich Western countries. In the rest of the Catholic world they are relatively unheard of.
  2. Very similar “bad things” have happened to Protestant churches in the rich Western countries in the same period.
If Vatican II had really caused the problems, they would be world-wide and confined to the Catholic church only.
 
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Confiteor:
JPII was a great man, no doubt, but none of the things you’ve cited were really in his job description as leader of the Church on earth. He wasn’t charged with being a world statesman but with preserving the deposit of faith, leading us all to holiness. That’s really the essence of what he should be judged on, not political movements he may have encouraged.

Your last statement is, to be polite, a bit over the top…According to you, no Vatican II and no JPII. And then no JPII and we’d all be vaporized? That might be a good plot for a disaster movie but it is not an argument to support the success of VII.
What? You don’t think it was any of the Pope’s business to cause the end of the bloodiest persecution the Church has ever had?
 
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AltarMan:
No, it’s not – it would likely be worse.

The best catechetics today are far superior to the best Baltimore Catechism-based catechetics of yesteryear.
I’m not so sure that is true. I recently taught an 8th grade class that used an approved but deficient text and had to resort to using the Baltimore Catechism to add substance to the course. Now (new parish), I used the Faith and Life series which is superb but resembles the Baltimore Catechism in terms of the Q & A.

More importantly, though, the norm for catechetics in the last 40 years has not resulted in well formed Catholics. The “average” Catholic of today is worse off in terms of faith knowledge than in prior generations; I think that is a better standard to judge by that the comparing the best catechized Catholic of today with the best catechized of the past. Presumably both those groups folks are okay.
 
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Petergee:
It is fashionable to blame Vatican II, or at least some amorphous thing called “the spirit of Vatican II” for everything bad that has happened in the Church in the past 40 years. This simplistic notion shows ignorance of the facts that:
  1. The “bad things” mentioned are almost entirely confined to rich Western countries. In the rest of the Catholic world they are relatively unheard of.
  2. Very similar “bad things” have happened to Protestant churches in the rich Western countries in the same period.
If Vatican II had really caused the problems, they would be world-wide and confined to the Catholic church only.
:amen: , esp. to #1.
 
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Petergee:
It is fashionable to blame Vatican II, or at least some amorphous thing called “the spirit of Vatican II” for everything bad that has happened in the Church in the past 40 years. This simplistic notion shows ignorance of the facts that:
  1. The “bad things” mentioned are almost entirely confined to rich Western countries. In the rest of the Catholic world they are relatively unheard of.
  2. Very similar “bad things” have happened to Protestant churches in the rich Western countries in the same period.
If Vatican II had really caused the problems, they would be world-wide and confined to the Catholic church only.
Escept that Protestant Churches went through a similar renewal at about the same time as the Council. The Episopal Church followed the Catholic Church’s lead in simplifying the liturgy. They also went through a modernizing process as mentioned in a post above.
 
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Petergee:
What? You don’t think it was any of the Pope’s business to cause the end of the bloodiest persecution the Church has ever had?
umm…they might not have this one beat in actually figures, but the first few centuries were pretty bloody. The reformation was no picnic either.
 
The popes of history warned against modernists.

What was Archbishop Lefebvre supposed to do? Deny the faith in his entirety of which he had received from the traditions of the Church, or align himself with the modernists?

I believe that he has done the better thing and followed tradition.

These are extraordinary times and Archbishop Lefebvre never did anything without any thought. He was a very prudent man. He sought God’s will in all things.

I read an article in the Angelus today that stated that Archbishop Lefebvre was “charity”.

Lets pray that he is interceding for the church.
 
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mcliffor:
Escept that Protestant Churches went through a similar renewal at about the same time as the Council. The Episopal Church followed the Catholic Church’s lead in simplifying the liturgy. They also went through a modernizing process as mentioned in a post above.
Not precisely how it went down, though close. I was, for 5 years, an Anglican. They actually made the liturgy closer to the Catholic Mass. Before, Morning Prayer was the normative service in low and broad churches, with Holy Communion every other week at maybe one service, except in High Anglo-Catholic churches. And they didn’t alter that much of any of the services, they ADDED “prayers of consecration” and removed the “Cranmer” lingo (“thee” and “thy,” etc., which I grant you was a mistake. If one was available, I’d attend an Anglican use parish on occasion, but not permanently, I don’t think). Formwise, though, it was by far a shift toward a more “mass-like” service.
 
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tradcatmel:
The popes of history warned against modernists.

What was Archbishop Lefebvre supposed to do? Deny the faith in his entirety of which he had received from the traditions of the Church, or align himself with the modernists?

I believe that he has done the better thing and followed tradition.

These are extraordinary times and Archbishop Lefebvre never did anything without any thought. He was a very prudent man. He sought God’s will in all things.

I read an article in the Angelus today that stated that Archbishop Lefebvre was “charity”.

Lets pray that he is interceding for the church.
"Modernism" is a heresy, one the Church cannot commit.

He was supposed to obey the Vicar of Christ on earth. That’s what makes us Catholic, not setting up our own little magisterium.

I believe (and apparently Pope John Paul the Great agreed) that he SHOULD have done the better thing and obeyed.

I don’t call setting yourself over the legitimate authority of the Christ’s Vicar "prudent."

Let’s pray that he’s in a position to intercede for the Church. If he is, then I’m sure that’s what he’s doing.
 
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JKirkLVNV:
Not precisely how it went down, though close. I was, for 5 years, an Anglican. They actually made the liturgy closer to the Catholic Mass. Before, Morning Prayer was the normative service in low and broad churches, with Holy Communion every other week at maybe one service, except in High Anglo-Catholic churches. And they didn’t alter that much of any of the services, they ADDED “prayers of consecration” and removed the “Cranmer” lingo (“thee” and “thy,” etc., which I grant you was a mistake. If one was available, I’d attend an Anglican use parish on occasion, but not permanently, I don’t think). Formwise, though, it was by far a shift toward a more “mass-like” service.
Look at any copy of the book of common prayer before the seventies. Their version of the Confiteor, as well as many other parts of the liturgy had all their harsher elements removed. I have it in front of me, and simplification or shortening is an obvious priority, even if some prayers replace others. Rite I still uses thee, thou and thy, but Rite I is a much more simplified version of what one finds in the book of common prayer from earlier years.
 
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mcliffor:
Look at any copy of the book of common prayer before the seventies. Their version of the Confiteor, as well as many other parts of the liturgy had all their harsher elements removed. I have it in front of me, and simplification or shortening is an obvious priority, even if some prayers replace others. Rite I still uses thee, thou and thy, but Rite I is a much more simplified version of what one finds in the book of common prayer from earlier years.
But far closer to the Mass.

Which copy do you have? Gosh, I used to know the old one by heart, “we have erred and strayed from thy ways like lost sheep.” Hmmm, I try to google it really fast.
 
VII was a smashing success. It’s full significance won’t be realized for another 80 years.
 
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mcliffor:
Look at any copy of the book of common prayer before the seventies. Their version of the Confiteor, as well as many other parts of the liturgy had all their harsher elements removed. I have it in front of me, and simplification or shortening is an obvious priority, even if some prayers replace others. Rite I still uses thee, thou and thy, but Rite I is a much more simplified version of what one finds in the book of common prayer from earlier years.
Look, get me started, I can’t find it: “we acknowledge our manifold sins and wickedness which we from time to time have most grievously committed against Thy Majesty.”

Incidentally, all the Anglican services have as their antecedant the Old Sarum Rite, which was beautiful, but was supressed by Trent…I think.

Actually, I’ll have to do this latter.
 
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SnorterLuster:
I believe I have pondered on what would have happened had Vatican II not occurred, but I come up with a different conclusion than you do. At least as I remember the times, the mainstream Protestant churches had already started the liberalization of their churches and started losing members as they increasingly tried to become relevant. About the same time Pope John called for a new Council. Many, both religious and laity in the Church were apprehensive that any attempt to make the Church modern or more relevant would lead us down the road that the mainstream Protestants were already travelling.

As I think about the last forty years, it seems to me that the Church is growing in Africa, but losing people in the rest of the world. Mexico and South America were bastions of orthodox Catholicism, but now the fundamentalist Protestant churches are making great inroads in those areas. Twenty years ago, Brazil was 90+% Catholic. Today it is 70% and in 15 years it is estimated that it will be majority fundamental Protestant. Europe is a basket case and the U.S., while retaining membership, is not much better off.

So the question remains, are the renewels and reforms of Vatican II leading more people to salvation and therefore a success, or are more and more people leaving the Church and losing their souls in the process. Not to even talk about the people that enjoy going to Mass, but don’t believe the Church has a right to tell them how to live their life.

“Being Catholic” is by itself not enough though - it is meant to be a help to our relationship with Christ. If former Catholics find that in Protestantism when they did not do so in Catholicism, I don’t think they are missing anything - they’re gaining.​

 
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