Was Vatican II Infallible?

[Necrohol]

What? You stated that Vatican II was infallible - so if that is so then it can’t contradict past infallible doctrine.

How old are you?

 

[franklinf]

How old are you?

I don’t see the relevance of that. Am I missing something?

 

[Necrohol]

What? You stated that Vatican II was infallible - so if that is so then it can’t contradict past infallible doctrine.

The answer to that question is that, the men who promulgated and effected the Council- John XXIII and Paul VI- were not real Popes, because many of the decrees and declarations of V2 clearly contradict word-for-word past infallible teachings. Nor are the 3 “popes” that follow.

 

[Necrohol]

To say that they were real Popes, is to make a mockery of the Infallibility and Indefectibility of the Holy Mother Church, which can’t be.

 

[Necrohol]

If anyone here wants to debate the issue, let’s do it, i’m all for it.

 

[SemperFidelis]

So there you have it, V2 was an Infallible Council. But we all know what the problem is, otherwise they wouldn’t be making a thread about it would they?

Paul VI:

Ordinary Magisterium; that is, it is clearly authentic

Well I’m glad you settled it when countless theologians, popes, cardinals, bishops, etc. have said to the contrary. Here’s a good article from Michael Davies:

remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/2008-1031-davies-vatican-II.htm

and another one from Peter Miller:

seattlecatholic.com/article_20030103_Differing_from_Other_Councils.html

Please read them in there entirety before you respond.

 

[SemperFidelis]

Pope Pius XI, Rappresentanti in Terra (# 16), Dec. 31,192:
“Upon this magisterial office Christ conferred infallibility, together with the command to teach His doctrine to all.”

Does this directly refer to Vatican II?

 

[SemperFidelis]

And, wasn’t everything of V2 binding and to be religiously observed and accepted by all as I just showed you above?

Does this include the Decree on the Media of Social Communications?

 

[SemperFidelis]

They threw away the Tridentine Mass and commanded that everyone accept and celebrate the “new mass”, or did they not do that?

Um, no, Vatican II did not do that. Neither did Pope Paul VI’s promulgation of the Novus Ordo Missae.

 

[SemperFidelis]

How old are you?

I don’t see the relevance of that. Am I missing something?

:whacky:

 

[Necrohol]

Does this directly refer to Vatican II?

Are you for real? Think about what you will write before you do it. It’s talking about the Magisterium, which V2 did teach with.

 

[Necrohol]

Um, no, Vatican II did not do that. Neither did Pope Paul VI’s promulgation of the Novus Ordo Missae.

Oh really? How so?

It is a fact that only 17% of the Tridentine remained, and all that was ommited; prayers, references, etc. etc. were the exact same things that the Protestants remained and did to their “mass”.

 

[Necrohol]

Your own signature tells you what you should do, which clearly you haven’t done.

 

[SemperFidelis]

Are you for real? Think about what you will write before you do it. It’s talking about the Magisterium, which V2 did teach with.

So you would argue then, that the authentic Ordinary Magisterium is infallible? Do not read into Pius XI’s words that which is not there.

 

[Necrohol]

FYI, Michael Davies, after making a complete study and concluding that the New “mass” was a departure from the faith and perhaps invalid, got scared and didn’t want to admitt it.

It suffices to point out that, they very same “ecumenism” condemned in Mortalium Animos is what the V2 and the last 5 “popes” have been promulgating and practicing.

 

[Necrohol]

So you would argue then, that the authentic Ordinary Magisterium is infallible? Do not read into Pius XI’s words that which is not there.

I already proved that V2 met the conditions for it to be Infallible, it doesn’t matter what you are saying here.

 

[SemperFidelis]

Oh really? How so?

It is a fact that only 17% of the Tridentine remained, and all that was ommited; prayers, references, etc. etc. were the exact same things that the Protestants remained and did to their “mass”.

Read about the commission of nine cardinals that Pope John Paul II set up in 1986. It can be summed up by Cardinal Stickler’s comments:
His Eminence Cardinal Stickler:

…the answers given by the nine Cardinals in 1986 was ‘No, the Mass of Saint Pius V (Tridentine Mass) has never been suppressed’.

 

[SemperFidelis]

Your own signature tells you what you should do, which clearly you haven’t done.

I have done as much.

 

[Necrohol]

Read about the commission of nine cardinals that Pope John Paul II set up in 1986. It can be summed up by Cardinal Stickler’s comments:

It was supressed, didn’t you know that just recently it was set free by Benedict XVI? What does set free mean? That it was prohibited, get your facts right.

 

[Necrohol]

The only true Ecumenism is the ecumenism of the return, as Mortalium Animos teaches, but what is the false ecumenism being taught today? One need not look any further than the very own Benedict XVI:

Benedict XVI, Address to Protestants at World Youth Day, August 19, 2005: “And we now ask: What does it mean to restore the unity of all Christians?.. This unity, we are convinced, indeed subsists in the Catholic Church, without the possibility of ever being lost (Unitatis Redintegratio, nn. 2, 4, etc.); the Church in fact has not totally disappeared from the world. Other the other hand, this unity does not mean what could be called ecumenism of the return: that is, to deny and to reject one’s own faith history. Absolutely not!” (L’Osservatore Romano, August 24, 2005, p. 8.)