Was Vatican II Infallible?

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FYI, Michael Davies, after making a complete study and concluding that the New “mass” was a departure from the faith and perhaps invalid, got scared and didn’t want to admitt it.
Michael Davies did not question the validity of the Novus Ordo when said in Latin with the Roman Canon. Not even Fr. Cekada questions the validity when these requirements are met. If you mean he questioned certain vernacular translations, then yes he did. I am not “scared” of what Michael Davies discovered and neither was he. Regardless, this is off-topic. Please bring up a new thread if you so desire.
It suffices to point out that, they very same “ecumenism” condemned in Mortalium Animos is what the V2 and the last 5 “popes” have been promulgating and practicing.
Ah, so we’re one of those folks then. I very much like conversing with sedevacantists and there are a few on these forums. I just want to warn you however, that the public “hard-line” you currently seem to be taking and moving towards, will shorten your trip here substantially

In reponse to the above however: if Unitatis Redintegratio is found to contrary to Mortalium Animos, we can simply ignore it for the time being, as it would fall under the authority of the non-infallible and merely authentic Ordinary Magisterium. Such is not necessarily the case however. As to what the last five popes have done regarding ecumenism: yes it is a sad ordeal, however that does not an empty seat make.
 
It was supressed, didn’t you know that just recently it was set free by Benedict XVI? What does set free mean? That it was prohibited, get your facts right.
An attempt was made to suppress it by two popes. According to the law, such can not actually take place (the result of the commission) as it regards the Mass of St. Pius V, regardless of what actually happened. This is exactly the reason why a certain archbishop from France and bishop from Brazil did what they did. Nevertheless, please stay on topic. I will not respond to anything else that does not directly relate to the topic at hand (the level of authority concerning the Second Vatican Council).
 
Michael Davies did not question the validity of the Novus Ordo when said in Latin with the Roman Canon. Not even Fr. Cekada questions the validity when these requirements are met. If you mean he questioned certain vernacular translations, then yes he did. I am not “scared” of what Michael Davies discovered and neither was he. Regardless, this is off-topic. Please bring up a new thread if you so desire.

Ah, so we’re one of those folks then. I very much like conversing with sedevacantists and there are a few on these forums. I just want to warn you however, that the public “hard-line” you currently seem to be taking and moving towards, will shorten your trip here substantially

In reponse to the above however: if Unitatis Redintegratio is found to contrary to Mortalium Animos, we can simply ignore it for the time being, as it would fall under the authority of the non-infallible and merely authentic Ordinary Magisterium. Such is not necessarily the case however. As to what the last five popes have done regarding ecumenism: yes it is a sad ordeal, however that does not an empty seat make.
You simply don’t get it do you? Vatican II met the conditions to be Infallible and commanded that all be observed, practiced and obeyed by all the faithful. Do you understand that?

And to your last lines, you are falling into schism, because you are choosing what you will accept or not, but we have to accept ALL the Faith and what the Popes say and command. But the last 5 were not, you yourself prove it.
 
The only true Ecumenism is the ecumenism of the return, as Mortalium Animos teaches, but what is the false ecumenism being taught today? One need not look any further than the very own Benedict XVI:

Benedict XVI, Address to Protestants at World Youth Day, August 19, 2005: “And we now ask: What does it mean to restore the unity of all Christians?.. This unity, we are convinced, indeed subsists in the Catholic Church, without the possibility of ever being lost (Unitatis Redintegratio, nn. 2, 4, etc.); the Church in fact has not totally disappeared from the world. Other the other hand, this unity does not mean what could be called ecumenism of the return: that is, to deny and to reject one’s own faith history. Absolutely not!” (L’Osservatore Romano, August 24, 2005, p. 8.)
tick…tick…tick…
 
You simply don’t get it do you?
No I get it. Clear as day actually.
Vatican II met the conditions to be Infallible and commanded that all be observed, practiced and obeyed by all the faithful.
It did no such thing. Unfortunately your lack of knowledge regarding the Ordinary Magisterium is all too common when it comes to sedes.
And to your last lines, you are falling into schism
Say this three times fast: “authentic Ordinary Magisterium,” “authentic Ordinary Magisterium,” “authentic Ordinary Magisterium.” Now study up on what it actually means.
because you are choosing what you will accept or not,
And you are choosing which pope you accept or not. Regardless, I am doing no such thing.
but we have to accept ALL the Faith and what the Popes say and command.
Agreed.
But the last 5 were not, you yourself prove it.
I have done no such thing. I have yet to see any sede prove pertinacity. Can you do it?
 
No I get it. Clear as day actually.

It did no such thing. Unfortunately your lack of knowledge regarding the Ordinary Magisterium is all too common when it comes to sedes.

Say this three times fast: “authentic Ordinary Magisterium,” “authentic Ordinary Magisterium,” “authentic Ordinary Magisterium.” Now study up on what it actually means.

And you are choosing which pope you accept or not. Regardless, I am doing no such thing.

Agreed.

I have done no such thing. I have yet to see any sede prove pertinacity. Can you do it?
Though Vatican II did not solemnly define any dogmas, it did intend to teach with the authority of what is called “universal ordinary magisterium.”

This is clear from the statements of Paul VI, who stated that even though Vatican II did not issue any solemn dogmatic definitions, it
“nevertheless endowed its teachings with the authority of the supreme ordinary magisterium, which ordinary (and therefore obviously authentic) magisterium must be docilely and sincerely received by all the faithful, according to the mind of the Council regarding the nature and scope of the respective documents.”

Here is the typical formula at the end of each Vatican II document: “Each and every matter declared in this Dogmatic Constitution the Fathers of this Sacred Council have approved. And We by the Apostolic Authority handed down to Us from Christ, together with all the Venerable Fathers, in the Holy Ghost approve, decree and establish these things; and all things thus synodally established, We order to be promulgated unto the glory of God…I, Paul, Bishop of the Catholic Church. There follow the signatures of the rest of the Fathers.” (AAS 57 [1965], 71)

So, Vatican II intended its teaching to be binding. The Council was not just a bishops’ golf outing — or whatever bishops on vacation do in Rome…

go study, go study, go study…
 
The Church has already taught, through its authority and that of its Popes, on freedom of religion, and that it is to be condemned. It is protected through the Ordinary Magisterium.
But it is not an area of faith and morals. If so, then everybody who said that Vatican II addressed no area of faith in morals is mistaken. It can not be both ways at the same time. Freedom of religion can not be an area of faith and morals up until Vatican II and then suddenly cease being an area of faith and morals. If it is an area of faith and morals, then Vatican II did address this area of faith in morals and therefore was more than just a pastoral council.

I get the impression that some want it both ways just so they can nullify Vatican II, but the illogic of such a postition seems totally obvious to me.
 
why don’t you just have a glance at this documents
traditionalcatholic.net/Tradition/Information/Dogmas_of_the_Church.html


Besides; Vatican II never claimed to be infallible, as there was a different agenda.
Infallible are dogmas (and Church teachings “Ex Cathedra”) only and not a full Vatican II tht took years (11th October 1962 to 8th December 1965).
You need to read once more how far does Infallibility extend to.

Think about this: If V2 would have claimed to be Infallible when it took place, it would have undoubtedly been called a false and heretical council right there and then, and would have been demolished. But the supposed “popes”, realizing this problem, avoided to call the Council such, and easily deceived many and still continues to deceive many that way.

In spite of everything, it met the conditions to be infallible and presumed to teach with the “Universal Ordinary Magisterium” which is granted infallibility.

You are basically a windbag, and have no idea what you’re talking about.
 
The level of basic Catholic Doctrine and Theology ignorance around here is just astounding.

You are basically a windbag, and have no idea what you’re talking about.
I would think that the level of humility and charity should be increased more than anything. How can you make such rash judgements about the posters here in your first day?
 
Anyone who denies that Vatican II did not decreed, ordered and encouraged all the faithful to religiously observe all that was taught at Vatican II, is simply a liar and a dishonest person. I’ll have the very own Paul VI tell you about it:

Paul VI, General Audience, Jan. 12, 1966: “The Council is a great act of the magisterium of the Church, and anyone who adheres to the Council is, by that very fact, recognizing and honoring the magisterium of the Church…”

“…it [the Council] still provided its teaching with the authority of the supreme ordinary magisterium. This ordinary magisterium, which is so obviously official, has to be accepted with docility, and sincerity by all the faithful, in accordance with the mind of the Council on the nature and aims of the individual documents.”
 
I would think that the level of humility and charity should be increased more than anything. How can you make such rash judgements about the posters here in your first day?
You’re right, i apologize for that. But just seeing that people here insist on lying made me kinda angry.
 
Firstly, Catholics are not supposed to ask if something is infallible in order to determine if they will accept it. We are required to submit to all that the Church teaches, whether this be an infallibly defined dogma, or an act of the ordinary magisterium. Pope Pius XII discusses this point in Humani Generis.

The question is, since Vatican II defined no dogmas, and was therefore only infallible when it repeated what the Church has already defined (or at lest what the Church had always taught), is it theoretically possible that it taught error by deviating from what the Church has always taught? Is it possible that it taught, for example, what the Syllabus and a string of Popes formally condemned? Is it possible that God would permit such a thing for good and just reasons (such as for a punishment for sins). And lastly, is it possible that these erroneous points be stricken from the council at some point?

What no one can deny about Vatican II is that it has produce rotten fruits from the very beginning. If it does not in fact teach formally condemned errors, just about everyone who reads it concludes that it does; that is to say, just about everyone who reads Vatican II ends by believing what the Church has formally condemned.

And it is not just the laity who “interpret” it this way. The very Bishops who drew up the documents and who voted on them interpret them as teaching what was formally condemned.

And what’s more, after the council these same Bishops and peritus admitted that Vatican II taught what the Syllabus formally condemned. But for them it was not a problem since Liberals and Modernists believe in “evolution of doctrine” - another formally condemned error. They mistakenly believe, not only that dogmas should be reformulated in an “updated” manner, but that formally condemned errors can suddenly become true and good. Due to the destructive “intellectual cancer” of modernism, the have no problem in adhering to formally condemned error!

These same men went so far as to say that Vatican II was the French Revolution in the Church, as if this was a good thing! The French Revolution was a Masonic Revolution against the Church. It was the French Revolution that brought the separation of Church and state, or the “agnosticizing” of the State. It brought about a “new world order” in that it was a new ordering of the world. No longer was the State to be subordinate to the Church, and to reflect the laws of God as had always been taught, but rather completely separated from it. The “altar and throne” were desroyed and replaced with the illusion of “the will of the people”. The Christian state became the agnostic state, with all of its ill effects. The Syllabus was a formal condemnation of many of the error that came from the French Revolution.

Yet Cardinal Ratzinger himself taught that Vatican II was a “counter-syllabus”, in that it taught as true and good what the Syllabus condemned. He said it was a reconciliation between the Church and the “new world order” brought about by the French Revolution.

continue
continuation

So, if anyone believes that Vatican II did not teach what was formally condemned as an error in the Syllabus, let them take it up with our new Pope. He realizes full well that Vatican II taught what was formally condemned. And let it be said that these errors were not only condemned in the Syllabus. The “modern errors” that arose out of the new “mentality” were condemned repeatedly by a number of Pope, from Gregory XVI in 1832, to Pius X in 1910 - when the errors were pushed underground through the efforts of this sainted Pope. At Vatican II, however, the heretics and their errors emerged once again, this time not to a Pope who condemned them, but to a Pope who said (at the opening speech of Vatican II), that the Church would no longer condemn error, but would use the “medicine of mercy”. We see how well that worked.

I’ll end here with a quote from the Vatican II peritus Yves Congar.

Yves Congar: "It cannot be denied that the affirmation of religious liberty by Vatican II says materially something other than what the Syllabus of 1864 said, and even just about the opposite of propositions 16, 17 and 19 of this document.”

Catholics are now left with a choice. They can believe what Vatican II taught, as interpreted by our new Pope and just about everyone else, and thereby adhere to formally condemned errors; or they can believe what the Church has always taught. Or, they might be able to find a way to interpret the ambiguities of Vatican II in such a way that it agrees with what the Church has always taught. But to do the later, you need to first study and learn what the Church has always taught.

My opinion is that Vatican II was a very just punishment from God. He has allowed the Church to suffer in the past, and He is allowing it to suffer now. In the end, however, He will bring good out of it… but which of us will still have the TRUE faith when that happens? And which of us will have fully embraced formally condemned errors simply because most of our leaders teach them? I think that most will be unable to resist the temptation.

And to answer the question of the OP, I think Vatican II will be condemned by the Church and tossed onto the trash can where it belongs. But that is just my opinion. Until that happens, I will simply interpret it in accord with what the Church has always taught to the extent that it is possible.
This guy here is totally correct. The only thing he failed to mention, is that the authority of the Church cannot give evil, or teach error and heresy. And the teaching that a heretical Pope loses all authority ipso facto, without any declaration, and by Divine Law, which has always been taught by the Church.

Popes don’t make laws for nothing.
 

QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS​

How can the Church be infallible if one Church Council contradicts another?
One of our friends said it was his understanding that teachings from all the Church Councils through the centuries are considered infallible. That makes it difficult to reconcile the teaching from the Council after the Reformation about salvation only through the Catholic Church with the teaching from Vatican II that there is some truth in every religion. Is the teaching of all Councils infallible? Is there a contradiction in these two Councils?
Thanks for your question.
Whenever the Pope alone or the bishops in union with the Pope exercise their divinely appointed office to teach on a matter of faith and morals to the whole Church, the teaching is infallible. The most solemn expression of this teaching authority would be an ecumenical council (which by definition would include and be in union with the Pope). Therefore, all the solemn teachings on faith and morals promulgated by the ecumenical councils are infallible.
Given this fact, it is necessary to be careful in dealing with what might on the surface appear to be contradictions between the teachings of two popes, a pope and a council, or two councils. The same is true of an apparent contradiction between Scripture and the Magisterium of the Church. These apparent contradictions must be resolved according to the “analogy of faith”. In other words, since we know that both (or several) teachings are inspired by the same Holy Spirit, it is unacceptable to reject one in favor of another. Rather, the key is to find out how they fit together.
 
Rather, the key is to find out how they fit together.
The key rather, at least for you Joysong, is not to try to explain the apparent contradiction…but silence those who disagree with you.

Where have you presented any “explanation” of how these two seemingly contradictory doctrines “fit together”? Nowhere. 🙂

Ave Maria Gratia Plena,

Fitz
 
But it is not an area of faith and morals. If so, then everybody who said that Vatican II addressed no area of faith in morals is mistaken. It can not be both ways at the same time. Freedom of religion can not be an area of faith and morals up until Vatican II and then suddenly cease being an area of faith and morals. If it is an area of faith and morals, then Vatican II did address this area of faith in morals and therefore was more than just a pastoral council.

I get the impression that some want it both ways just so they can nullify Vatican II, but the illogic of such a postition seems totally obvious to me.
Not so. It can be an area of faith and morals and still not be covered by infallibility at Vatican II. The previous Popes condemned it.That would be infallible and part of the Ordinary Magisterium Church. At Vatican II, being focused on the pastoral side, the Council was concerned with the presentation and explanation of the Church’s stance, which must be read in light of Church Tradition. This would be the authentic Ordinary Magisterium, which is authoritative but not infallible.
 
You are basically a windbag, and have no idea what you’re talking about.
**This is the expression of real Christian love and understanding.
How glad I am to have finally found out what and who I am.
Thank you ever so much.
:extrahappy: **
 
But If it is an area of faith and morals, then Vatican II did address this area of faith in morals and therefore was more than just a pastoral council.

I get the impression that some want it both ways just so they can nullify Vatican II, but the illogic of such a postition seems totally obvious to me.
A pastoral council can nevertheless reiterate teachings that fall under the category of faith and morals. All such reiterations that are in continuity with the Dogmas of the Faith are infallible due to the fact that they are already infallible Dogmas. If it was found to be that a certain document of Vatican II did not explain something in continuity with previous teachings, then it undoubtedly would fall under the authentic Ordinary Magisterium, as it could not possibly be the Universal Ordinary Magisterium due to its failure to be in continuity with said previous teachings. “Continuity” and “time” are the key words here. I am not however, accusing any document of Vatican II of actually having error, but am arguing that it is possible due to what we know of the authority of Vatican II.
 
“nevertheless endowed its teachings with the authority of the supreme ordinary magisterium, which ordinary (and therefore obviously authentic) magisterium must be docilely and sincerely received by all the faithful, according to the mind of the Council regarding the nature and scope of the respective documents.”
Yes, certain parts of Vatican II would seem to fall under the authority of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium. I have never made any argument to the contrary. However there are many parts that would fall under the authority of the merely authentic Ordinary Magisterium. You have to apply each document according to the norms for theological interpretaton as it relates to the authority of said documents (as stated by Cardinal Felici in the Nota Praevia to Lumen Gentium). You are “proof-texting” here and ascribing meaning to Paul VI’s words that which is not there. Do you mean to tell me that a document on “Media and Social Communications” could possibly fall under the authority of the Universal Ordinary Magisterium? Please answer this question in a simple yes or no fashion.
 
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