Washing of the feet Maundy Thursday

[Catholicben]

The problem with that is that the rubrics for the Mass simply say 12 men. There is no indication of any preference for priests or seminarians. Those who restrict the Rite to priests/seminarians are reading something into the rubrics that is not there or required (or necessarily beneficial).

Huh? Are you implying that priests/seminarians are not men? I don’t understand your argument…

I don’t really see it a “restricting the rite”, it seems that a) it’s more fitting to be 12 priests if possible, because that is what Christ did at The Last Supper, and b) 12 men have to be picked, and what is wrong with picking (in this case) seminarians?

It would be irrational for the rubrics to say that you have to (ie, the only option) wash the feet of 12 seminarians, and certainly 12 priests, for practical reasons. But where it is possible, I think it should be done.

 

[Catholicben]

I might be wrong, but now that I think about it, it almost seems as if the 12 men are “fill-ins” for the 12 priests, the same way altar boys are “fill-ins” for instituted acolytes. Except in the first case, it dosen’t say anything about washing 12 priests’ feet because in 99.9% of situations, it would not be pratical/prudent to do so.

 

[Catholicben]

I might be wrong, but now that I think about it, it almost seems as if the 12 men are “fill-ins” for the 12 priests, the same way altar boys are “fill-ins” for instituted acolytes (who’s duty it is to serve when present, if possible). Except in the first case, it doesn’t say anything about washing 12 priests’ feet because in 99.9% of situations, it would not be practical/prudent to do so.

 

[diggerdomer]

Huh? Are you implying that priests/seminarians are not men? I don’t understand your argument…

Of course not. That is …well…a completely unfounded if not irrational inference.

I don’t really see it a “restricting the rite”, it seems that a) it’s more fitting to be 12 priests if possible, because that is what Christ did at The Last Supper, and b) 12 men have to be picked, and what is wrong with picking (in this case) seminarians?

You may see it as “more fitting” but the Rite simply says “men” (meaning, male humans). The Rite DOES NOT say “seminarians” or “priests” nor does it give any indication that such are preferred. Have you read the Rite? Your interpretation of the Rite in this way may or may not be “more fitting” but my point is that it is just an opinion, it’s not what the Rite prescribes. If you or your parish choose to adapt and interpret the Rite that way, well, good for you. If it helps and is beneficial for the salvation of souls, more power to you.

 

[benedictgal]

Of course not. That is …well…a completely unfounded if not irrational inference.

You may see it as “more fitting” but the Rite simply says “men” (meaning, male humans). The Rite DOES NOT say “seminarians” or “priests” nor does it give any indication that such are preferred. Have you read the Rite? Your interpretation of the Rite in this way may or may not be “more fitting” but my point is that it is just an opinion, it’s not what the Rite prescribes. If you or your parish choose to adapt and interpret the Rite that way, well, good for you. If it helps and is beneficial for the salvation of souls, more power to you.

Again, the Holy Father washes the feet of 12 priests on Holy Thursday. The way I read your post, you would seem to take issue with that. As I noted in an earlier post, even Pope John Paul II washed the feet of 12 priests every Holy Thursday.

 

[Catholicben]

Your interpretation of the Rite in this way may or may not be “more fitting” but my point is that it is just an opinion, it’s not what the Rite prescribes. If you or your parish choose to adapt and interpret the Rite that way, well, good for you. If it helps and is beneficial for the salvation of souls, more power to you.

Oh. I see what you are saying now. It originally seemed like you were against having 12 seminarians/priests having their feet washed. I think I now see what you are trying to say, and agree with you that it is not the only legitimate option.

Are we on the same page now?

 

[diggerdomer]

Again, the Holy Father washes the feet of 12 priests on Holy Thursday. The way I read your post, you would seem to take issue with that. As I noted in an earlier post, even Pope John Paul II washed the feet of 12 priests every Holy Thursday.

Well, good for them. I am just noting that what the Church requires has nothing to do with whether the 12 are priests, seminarians, lay, etc. as long as they are male. Individuals and communities are, I suppose, welcome to interpret the rubrics as they see fit, but if anyone gets the idea that something other than “12 males” is required, or better, or necessary, they are going beyond what the Church teaches. I’ve never seen anything that indicates the Popes teach anything other than what the Liturgy of the Church does, so I have no problem with what they practice individually. I have no problem with what any priest or community practices, individually, as long as they follow the rubrics. Do you?

 

[diggerdomer]

Oh. I see what you are saying now. It originally seemed like you were against having 12 seminarians/priests having their feet washed. I think I now see what you are trying to say, and agree with you that it is not the only legitimate option.

Are we on the same page now?

I think so. Sorry for any confusion on my part. Thanks!

 

[MarkThompson]

. . . but if anyone gets the idea that something other than “12 males” is required, or better, or necessary, they are going beyond what the Church teaches.

A couple of brief points:

• The Church doesn’t really “teach” anything about whose feet should be washed. It’s just a rubric.
• Often it’s perfectly fine – holy even – to go beyond what the Church asks, such as fasting from midnight before taking the Eucharist.
• If nothing else, washing the feet of seminarians or priests is a good way to obey the rubric (men only) without it being so obvious that you’re specifically excluding women. No reason not to keep the peace when you can.

 

[diggerdomer]

A couple of brief points:

• The Church doesn’t really “teach” anything about whose feet should be washed. It’s just a rubric.
• Often it’s perfectly fine – holy even – to go beyond what the Church asks, such as fasting from midnight before taking the Eucharist.
• If nothing else, washing the feet of seminarians or priests is a good way to obey the rubric (men only) without it being so obvious that you’re specifically excluding women. No reason not to keep the peace when you can.

Rubrics in the liturgy are indeed “teaching moments” – the rule of prayer is the rule of faith as the ancient axiom goes (often cited as “lex orandi, lex credendi”)

Of course, going beyond or adapting, etc., what the minimal requirements of the rubrics is fine as long as such is done by one knowledgeable of the entire Church tradition and teaching (which includes rubrics) on the liturgy.

 

[MarkThompson]

Rubrics in the liturgy are indeed “teaching moments” – the rule of prayer is the rule of faith as the ancient axiom goes (often cited as “lex orandi, lex credendi”)

Yes; it would be a mistake, however, to see the rubric as itself a “teaching of the Church.” That kind of thing only opens us up to spurious claims that the Church is “changing its teachings” when it alters its rubrics. I know that’s not what you meant DD, but your words had that appearance.

 

[diggerdomer]

Yes; it would be a mistake, however, to see the rubric as itself a “teaching of the Church.” That kind of thing only opens us up to spurious claims that the Church is “changing its teachings” when it alters its rubrics. I know that’s not what you meant DD, but your words had that appearance.

The Church always changes some teachings. If rubrics change, there’s a solid reason for it. The liturgy also has always changed, in many respects. And it will continue to do so. I’m not isolating rubtics apart from the whole teaching Tradition of the Church, merely pointing out that liturgy does indeed “teach” (while at the same time teaching/catechesis is not the primary purpose of liturgy).