Wasn't Jesus a Muslim?

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Birth of Christ-aound 1 AD/CE give or take a few years
Birth of Islam-610 CE

Nope. Doesn’t look like it.
 
slyboots, you have to read the entire article, not just respond to the thread’s title. The article lists good points on why Jesus was NOT a muslim, and refutes some claims of muslims. 🙂
 
NorCal73 said:
slyboots, you have to read the entire article, not just respond to the thread’s title. The article lists good points on why Jesus was NOT a muslim, and refutes some claims of muslims. 🙂
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he was Muslim in the sense of the linguistic meaning of this word in Arabic (to surrender and submit) ,not someone following the Islamic religion…of course Islam as a religion established in the 7th century ,but Islam , as a concept, was always there since Adam…
 
Hadi said:
~ snip ~

**in Arabic (to surrender and submit) **,

~ snip ~

…
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My 2 dogs “surrender and submit” to me as their alpha, does this mean they too are muslims.

What about all of the soldiers, generals and commanders who “surrender and submit” to the opposition, are they too muslims.

And how about children who “surrender and submit” to their parents for misbehaving, are you saying they are muslims.

Please!
 
jakasaki said:
My 2 dogs “surrender and submit” to me as their alpha, does this mean they too are muslims.

What about all of the soldiers, generals and commanders who “surrender and submit” to the opposition, are they too muslims.

And how about children who “surrender and submit” to their parents for misbehaving, are you saying they are muslims.

Please!
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don’t be silly…I meant submit to God…like Jesus saying May your will be *done and other verses submission to God is taught
*
 
Hadi said:
don’t be silly…I meant submit to God…like Jesus saying May your will be *done and other verses submission to God is taught
*
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Well to my dogs I am god - !!! 😛

And to kids, their parents are god - their parents “giveth” and their parents “taketh”… 😛

Anyway, @ poster - I read the article - Thanks for sharing.
 
NorCal73 said:
I found the following transcript very interesting and a great read (although a little long). Comments/discussion are most welcome!

debate.org.uk/topics/theo/jes-musl.htm

Peace to all!
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Interesting essay. At the end of the discussion, it is clear that no, Jesus was not a Muslim.

What did Jesus teach? Love your neighbor as yourself. Spread the word of God to all peoples.

What did Mahomet teach? 6 pillars
  1. Confession (though not real confession) “There is no god but Allah and Mahomet is his messenger” - Problem! Jesus said that He IS the Word. No new prophets.
  2. Prayer - 5 times a day toward Jerusalem until the Jews tossed him out, then towards Mecca.
  3. Almsgiving. Nothing wrong with this one!
  4. Fasting. On the surface okay, but remember Jesus taught that fasting should be a private thing, not talked about in public.
  5. Pilgrimage. Hmmm. Must go to Mecca to participate in a Pagan ceremony involving blood sacrifice. Nope. Not Jesus at all.
  6. Jihad.This has been taken differently over the years. During the life of Mahomet, it was a bloodthirsty “blood and souls for Satan” sort of thing. Later, it became more peaceful, especially when dealing with non-Arabian Muslims. In the times of the Ottoman (Osmanli) empire there were many occasions of Jews, Muslims and Christians living in harmony.
Now days the Jihad has again returned to the blood thirst of Mahomet and his minions.

Perhaps it is Islam which is currently undergoing Apostacy?
 
Hadi said:
he was Muslim in the sense of the linguistic meaning of this word in Arabic (to surrender and submit) ,not someone following the Islamic religion…of course Islam as a religion established in the 7th century ,but Islam , as a concept, was always there since Adam…
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Doesn’t that mean that the old Muslim argument that the Trinity can’t be true because it isn’t specifically named in the Bible? After all, you’ve just admitted essentially that Islam hasn’t been known about until much long after the Trinity was revealed.
 
Byzantine_Wolf said:
Doesn’t that mean that the old Muslim argument that the Trinity can’t be true because it isn’t specifically named in the Bible? After all, you’ve just admitted essentially that Islam hasn’t been known about until much long after the Trinity was revealed.
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Didn’t Jesus submit to the will of God ? therefore he was a “submitter”…but the word “submitter” was used in English hundreds of years later…well,this is the same with the word “Muslim” i.e submitter
 
Hadi said:
Didn’t Jesus submit to the will of God ? therefore he was a “submitter”…but the word “submitter” was used in English hundreds of years later…well,this is the same with the word “Muslim” i.e submitter
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He submitted to the will of the Father, but, being the Incarnate Word, He also had His divinity. The disciples and all followers of Christ submitted to Him, for as Christ stated no one comes to the Father except through the Son (John 14:6).

However, you seem to misunderstand my point: the words Muslim and Islam do not exist in the Old or New Testaments, and therefore it seems hypocritical of some to argue, on the same token, that the Trinity could not be true because the word itself did not exist in the Old or New Testaments.
 
Byzantine_Wolf said:
He submitted to the will of the Father, but, being the Incarnate Word, He also had His divinity. The disciples and all followers of Christ submitted to Him, for as Christ stated no one comes to the Father except through the Son (John 14:6).
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and what is the Arabic translation of the word “submit”

note : of course the words Muslim and Islam are not found in the Bible,they are Arabic words…but the meaning of this word is found there…

please don’t mix things up…I am arguing here on the meaning of the words Islam and Muslim…not related to the Islamic religion
 
jakasaki said:
My 2 dogs “surrender and submit” to me as their alpha, does this mean they too are muslims.

What about all of the soldiers, generals and commanders who “surrender and submit” to the opposition, are they too muslims.

And how about children who “surrender and submit” to their parents for misbehaving, are you saying they are muslims.

Please!
Click to expand...

Have they barked (or said, as the case may be) the Shahadah ?​

STM your post uses the phrase “surrender and submit” equivocally 😉
 
**[2:130] وَمَنْ يَّرْغَبُ عَنْ مِّلَّةِ اِبْرٰهٖمَ اِلَّا مَنْ سَفِهَ نَفْسَهٗ‌ؕ وَلَقَدِ اصْطَفَيْنٰهُ فِىْ الدُّنْيَا‌ۚ وَاِنَّهٗ فِىْ الْاٰخِرَةِ لَمِنَ الصّٰلِحِيْنَ

[2:130] And who will turn away from the religion of Abraham but he who is foolish of mind? Him did We choose in this world, and in the next he will surely be among the righteous**.
[2:131] اِذْ قَالَ لَهٗ رَبُّهٗۤ اَسْلِمْ‌ۙ قَالَ اَسْلَمْتُ لِرَبِّ الْعٰلَمِيْنَ‏

[2:131] When his Lord said to him (To Abraham), ‘Submit,’ he said, ‘I have submitted to the Lord of the worlds.’
[2:132] وَوَصّٰى بِهَآ اِبْرٰهٖمُ بَنِيْهِ وَ يَعْقُوْبُؕ يٰبَنِىَّ اِنَّ اللّٰهَ اصْطَفٰى لَـكُمُ الدِّيْنَ فَلَا تَمُوْتُنَّ اِلَّا وَاَنْتُمْ مُّسْلِمُوْنَؕ‏‏

[2:132] The same did Abraham enjoin upon his sons — and so did Jacob — saying: ‘O my sons, truly Allah has chosen this religion for you; so let not death overtake you except when you are in a state of submission.’
[2:133] اَمْ كُنْتُمْ شُهَدَآءَ اِذْ حَضَرَ يَعْقُوْبَ الْمَوْتُۙ اِذْ قَالَ لِبَنِيْهِ مَا تَعْبُدُوْنَ مِنْۢ بَعْدِىْؕ قَالُوْا نَعْبُدُ اِلٰهَكَ وَاِلٰهَ اٰبَآٮِٕكَ اِبْرٰهٖمَ وَاِسْمٰعِيْلَ وَاِسْحٰقَ اِلٰهًا وَّاحِدًا ۖۚ وَّنَحْنُ لَهٗ مُسْلِمُوْنَ‏

[2:133] Were you present when death came to Jacob, when he said to his sons, ‘What will you worship after me?’ They answered, ‘We will worship thy God, the God of thy fathers, Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac, the One God; and to Him we submit ourselves.’
[2:134] تِلْكَ اُمَّةٌ قَدْ خَلَتْ‌ۚ لَهَا مَا كَسَبَتْ وَلَـكُمْ مَّا كَسَبْتُمْ‌ۚ وَلَا تُسْـَٔـلُوْنَ عَمَّا كَانُوْا يَعْمَلُوْنَ‏

[2:134] Those are a people that have passed away; for them is what they earned, and for you shall be what you earn; and you shall not be questioned as to what they did.

==========================================

In the above verses of the Quran, Abraham is calling himself a Muslim. Jacob is also calling himself Muslim. Jacob is advising his children to be Muslims. They admit and agree that they will submit to One God. That means they will be Muslims. Jesus was also one of them. he taught the same. All prophets, messengers and saints are Muslims.
 
jakasaki said:
My 2 dogs “surrender and submit” to me as their alpha, does this mean they too are muslims.

What about all of the soldiers, generals and commanders who “surrender and submit” to the opposition, are they too muslims.

And how about children who “surrender and submit” to their parents for misbehaving, are you saying they are muslims.

Please!
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:rotfl: :rotfl:

you’re very smart in noticing that muslim means submitter
 
planten said:
**[2:130] وَمَنْ يَّرْغَبُ عَنْ مِّلَّةِ اِبْرٰهٖمَ اِلَّا مَنْ سَفِهَ نَفْسَهٗ‌ؕ وَلَقَدِ اصْطَفَيْنٰهُ فِىْ الدُّنْيَا‌ۚ وَاِنَّهٗ فِىْ الْاٰخِرَةِ لَمِنَ الصّٰلِحِيْنَ

[2:130] And who will turn away from the religion of Abraham but he who is foolish of mind? Him did We choose in this world, and in the next he will surely be among the righteous**.
[2:131] اِذْ قَالَ لَهٗ رَبُّهٗۤ اَسْلِمْ‌ۙ قَالَ اَسْلَمْتُ لِرَبِّ الْعٰلَمِيْنَ‏

[2:131] When his Lord said to him (To Abraham), ‘Submit,’ he said, ‘I have submitted to the Lord of the worlds.’
[2:132] وَوَصّٰى بِهَآ اِبْرٰهٖمُ بَنِيْهِ وَ يَعْقُوْبُؕ يٰبَنِىَّ اِنَّ اللّٰهَ اصْطَفٰى لَـكُمُ الدِّيْنَ فَلَا تَمُوْتُنَّ اِلَّا وَاَنْتُمْ مُّسْلِمُوْنَؕ‏‏

[2:132] The same did Abraham enjoin upon his sons — and so did Jacob — saying: ‘O my sons, truly Allah has chosen this religion for you; so let not death overtake you except when you are in a state of submission.’
[2:133] اَمْ كُنْتُمْ شُهَدَآءَ اِذْ حَضَرَ يَعْقُوْبَ الْمَوْتُۙ اِذْ قَالَ لِبَنِيْهِ مَا تَعْبُدُوْنَ مِنْۢ بَعْدِىْؕ قَالُوْا نَعْبُدُ اِلٰهَكَ وَاِلٰهَ اٰبَآٮِٕكَ اِبْرٰهٖمَ وَاِسْمٰعِيْلَ وَاِسْحٰقَ اِلٰهًا وَّاحِدًا ۖۚ وَّنَحْنُ لَهٗ مُسْلِمُوْنَ‏

[2:133] Were you present when death came to Jacob, when he said to his sons, ‘What will you worship after me?’ They answered, ‘We will worship thy God, the God of thy fathers, Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac, the One God; and to Him we submit ourselves.’
[2:134] تِلْكَ اُمَّةٌ قَدْ خَلَتْ‌ۚ لَهَا مَا كَسَبَتْ وَلَـكُمْ مَّا كَسَبْتُمْ‌ۚ وَلَا تُسْـَٔـلُوْنَ عَمَّا كَانُوْا يَعْمَلُوْنَ‏

[2:134] Those are a people that have passed away; for them is what they earned, and for you shall be what you earn; and you shall not be questioned as to what they did.

==========================================

In the above verses of the Quran, Abraham is calling himself a Muslim. Jacob is also calling himself Muslim. Jacob is advising his children to be Muslims. They admit and agree that they will submit to One God. That means they will be Muslims. Jesus was also one of them. he taught the same. All prophets, messengers and saints are Muslims.
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👍 good saying planten
the answers are always in quran , and i agree with you that islam was always the massages of prophets to thier people

it was important for the people to believe in thiere prophets to be in the right path

it was improtant for the jews to recognize jesus as a prophet and to accept his massage , they will not be in the right path if they denyed him

and it was important for bani israil to recognize moses (pbuh) as a prophet from God to them to be in the right path

it was alwys very important for the people to believe in thier prophets to pleased the God , it wasn’t exclusive to jesus

Christ stated no one comes to the Father except through the Son (John 14:6). , i believe that he said these words as i believe that every prophet said the same to his people .
refusing the prophet is refusing to God 's command as for the prophets who transmit his commands , it’s simple as that
 
elwill said:
refusing the prophet is refusing to God 's command as for the prophets who transmit his commands , it’s simple as that
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Don’t you first have to determine if a prophet is actually from God and is transmitting God’s commands? I have yet to receive an answer as to how Muslims know that Muhammad is from God, other than the fact that he said so and that he was trustworthy in business.

Also, according to this definition of Muslim, all Jews and Christians are Muslims in that we all submit to the One True God. 🤷 Muslims today, however, seem to take it farther in that one has to accept Muhammad’s prophethood - seemingly without any verification of such prophethood.
 
Jay53 said:
Don’t you first have to determine if a prophet is actually from God and is transmitting God’s commands? I have yet to receive an answer as to how Muslims know that Muhammad is from God, other than the fact that he said so and that he was trustworthy in business.
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although i see his trustworthy to be a valid reason ( as for you trust paul in his vision with ignoring his history , so i guess that i have to ask you about valid reason to trust him either )

but actually our reasons to trust muhammed need another thread , i will be happy to respond you within it
and i can show you that even unbiased nonmuslims scholars recognised the reasons which made his followers believe in him

as a brief answer for you , i can say to you that while everyone can read or hear about the everlasting miracles of thier prophets , me as a muslim can witness the miracle of my prophet , his miracle is in front of my eyes , it’s under my controll . i can test it and i can challange by it the religions of all the world ( the quran)
Also, according to this definition of Muslim, all Jews and Christians are Muslims in that we all submit to the One True God. 🤷 Muslims today, however, seem to take it farther in that one has to accept Muhammad’s prophethood - seemingly without any verification of such prophethood.
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if you consider yourself submiter to the one true God , so show me where jesus asked you to worship himself or where did jesus asked you to believe in trinity and where jesus did asked you clearly to believe that he will die for the sins of the world and that no one will get the salvation if he didn’t believe in the event of sacrifice , and where jesus did say he is God incarnating in human

muslims believe that the God sent jesus as prophet , but you believe that jesus himself is that God who incarnated in human body of jesus , but what your bible say ?

“Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent” John 17:3 – NIV “A

what is the most important beliefs in the massage of jesus (pbuh) which is enough for someone to get the eternal life ?
One of the teachers of the law came and noticed them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, ‘Of all the commandments, which is the most important?’ ‘The most important one,’ answered Jesus, ‘is this: “Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.” The second is this: “Love your neighbour as yourself.”
There is no commandment greater than these.’ ‘Well said, teacher,’ the man replied. ‘You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. To love him with all your heart, with you all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbour as yourself is more important that all burnt offerings and sacrifices.’ When Jesus saw that he has answered wisely, he said to him, ‘You are not far from the kingdom of God.’And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.” Mark 12:28-34 –

Rather this is the basis of the teachings of all the Prophets. The same advice appears in the Gospel of Matthew, in similar wording, after which he says: “All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Matthew 22:39

jay , your main beliefs have nothing to do with the main massage and commandments of jesus himself , the main massage of jesus was to worship the God the one who is in heavin , he never said to worship the God the three nor did he command his followers to worship him niether in his life nor after his sacrifice

the principles of the massage of jesus is the same principles of the massage of islam

Allaah says in quran (interpretation of the meaning): “And We did not send any Messenger before you (O Muhammad) but We revealed to him (saying): Laa ilaaha illa Ana [none has the right to be worshipped but I (Allaah)], so worship Me (Alone and none else)”
[al-Anbiya’ 21:25]
 
elwill said:
although i see his trustworthy to be a valid reason ( as for you trust paul in his vision with ignoring his history , so i guess that i have to ask you about valid reason to trust him either )

So, if my boss, who is very trustworthy in business comes to us and says he has received revelations from God which contradict previous scriptures I should believe him?

but actually our reasons to trust muhammed need another thread , i will be happy to respond you within it
and i can show you that even unbiased nonmuslims scholars recognised the reasons which made his followers believe in him

I would like to know actual proof that Muhammad gave that his revelations are from God - not how people who liked him were duped.

as a brief answer for you , i can say to you that while everyone can read or hear about the everlasting miracles of thier prophets , me as a muslim can witness the miracle of my prophet , his miracle is in front of my eyes , it’s under my controll . i can test it and i can challange by it the religions of all the world ( the quran)

Again, who says that the Quran is a miracle? God has not said so. It may say so in the Quran, but that is self-serving at best - of course Muhammad would include that. Muhammad contradicts previous scriptures (i.e. in the matter of divorce just for one example.) Why should we believe that it is from God?

if you consider yourself submiter to the one true God , so show me where jesus asked you to worship himself or where did jesus asked you to believe in trinity and where jesus did asked you clearly to believe that he will die for the sins of the world and that no one will get the salvation if he didn’t believe in the event of sacrifice , and where jesus did say he is God incarnating in human

This has been addressed several times in other threads. I honestly don’t have time right now to go through all the verses in the Bible again where these things are recorded. (Perhaps someone else will be kind enough to do so.) If you read the Bible you will find them.

muslims believe that the God sent jesus as prophet , but you believe that jesus himself is that God who incarnated in human body of jesus , but what your bible say ?

That Jesus is God.

“Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent” John 17:3 – NIV “A

what is the most important beliefs in the massage of jesus (pbuh) which is enough for someone to get the eternal life ?
One of the teachers of the law came and noticed them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, ‘Of all the commandments, which is the most important?’ ‘The most important one,’ answered Jesus, ‘is this: “Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.” The second is this: “Love your neighbour as yourself.”
There is no commandment greater than these.’ ‘Well said, teacher,’ the man replied. ‘You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. To love him with all your heart, with you all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbour as yourself is more important that all burnt offerings and sacrifices.’ When Jesus saw that he has answered wisely, he said to him, ‘You are not far from the kingdom of God.’And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.” Mark 12:28-34 –

Rather this is the basis of the teachings of all the Prophets. The same advice appears in the Gospel of Matthew, in similar wording, after which he says: “All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Matthew 22:39

jay , your main beliefs have nothing to do with the main massage and commandments of jesus himself , the main massage of jesus was to worship the God the one who is in heavin , he never said to worship the God the three nor did he command his followers to worship him niether in his life nor after his sacrifice

the principles of the massage of jesus is the same principles of the massage of islam

No, absolutely not!!! Jesus NEVER said to kill unbelievers, stone adulterers, divorce is OK, etc. The messages are definitely not the same. Jesus did affirm His Divinity - again I don’t have time to post all the verses again. 😦

I fully agree in the Bible verses you quoted - to love God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength and to love your neighbor as yourself. Loving your neighbor as yourself does not mean killling unbelievers, “taking not Jews and Christians as friends”, turning aside from pagans because they are “unclean”. Your/my neighbor is every human being on earth.

Allaah says in quran (interpretation of the meaning): “And We did not send any Messenger before you (O Muhammad) but We revealed to him (saying): Laa ilaaha illa Ana [none has the right to be worshipped but I (Allaah)], so worship Me (Alone and none else)”
[al-Anbiya’ 21:25]
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**Elwill had given good lines from the bible, e.g.

Jesus said:
“Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent” John 17:3 – NIV “A**

Jesus was just a messenger of God. he was sent by God.

In other bible passages, Jesus told some one : ‘The most important one,’ answered Jesus, ‘is this: “Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength
Jesus is telling every one to love and pray to the One God only. Jesus had a God and Jesus used to pray to that God. While on the cross Jesus yelled out to That God, “Eli, Eli, Lima sabaqatani?” O my God, O my God, why have you forsaken me?

Jesus never talked about himself that he was god and people should love him and pray to him. He never did that.
 
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