Wasn't Jesus a Muslim?

[ZAKI]

Well to my dogs I am god - !!!

I am sure that your dogs would prefer to heed their creator then heed their creator. Your dogs submits to God…not to you.

wasalam

 

[ZAKI]

and you know how foolish christians look when they post passages from the Quran out of context? Very hypocritical.

wasalam

 

[ZAKI]

Don’t you first have to determine if a prophet is actually from God and is transmitting God’s commands? I have yet to receive an answer as to how Muslims know that Muhammad is from God, other than the fact that he said so and that he was trustworthy in business.

Also, according to this definition of Muslim, all Jews and Christians are Muslims in that we all submit to the One True God. Muslims today, however, seem to take it farther in that one has to accept Muhammad’s prophethood - seemingly without any verification of such prophethood.

Muhammed (pbuh) is just a prophet. Unlike christians-we do not make our messengers become sons of God.

wasalam

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

note : of course the words Muslim and Islam are not found in the Bible,they are Arabic words…but the meaning of this word is found there…

The meaning, but not the word. I’ve never heard a Muslim apologist admit, “Well the word Trinity is Latin, but the meaning is still found in the New Testament.” They argue, “The word’s not in the Bible, so it can’t be true.”

I’m just asking for consistency.

In the above verses of the Quran, Abraham is calling himself a Muslim. Jacob is also calling himself Muslim. Jacob is advising his children to be Muslims. They admit and agree that they will submit to One God. That means they will be Muslims. Jesus was also one of them. he taught the same. All prophets, messengers and saints are Muslims.

You quote a book that came 600 years after the time of Christ, written by a man who knew no one of the time period, who is quoting them with no source outside of himself, and not quoting any relevant scripture outside of his own word, which he considers scripture.

Why some Muslims believe this kind of argumentation is supposed to wow Christians, I do not know. If you are trying to score points with your own side (which I can only assume you are), then you may succeed, but do so at a Muslim forum and do not insult people on a Christian forum with self-serving rhetoric.

Jesus said:
“Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent” John 17:3 – NIV “A

Jesus was just a messenger of God. he was sent by God.[etc]

We’ve discussed the relevant passages with you. You continue to repeat your own argument.

To be honest, I am one step away from simply blocking you, and I would encourage other Christians on this forum to be in the same mindset. You do not enter into honest, let alone productive, discussions. There are fine Muslim posters on this forum, and you insult then with your intellectually dishonest tactics and willfull ignorance.

 

[Hadi]

.

the difference is,while everyone agrees that Abraham , Moses and Jesus *submitted * to the will of God …not everyone agrees that the trinity is biblical (Jews, JWs , Unitarians and Muslims)

 

[planten]

**J C, I do not say I have not read the bible. I have read the four gospels very well and I like them very much. I admit I did not read beyond the Gospels. I am not interested in Paul (Saul of Tarsus.). I am always presenting you something from the gospels. If context is wrong then you please correct it.

If you bring something against what is in the gospel, that would mean contradiction in the bible. Jesus had been talking about his God and others God. He said, “I am going to my God and your God… To my Lord and your Lord…” Please explain all these things. Our mind is very clear and respectful for Jesus.**

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

the difference is,while everyone agrees that Abraham , Moses and Jesus submitted to the will of God …not everyone agrees that the trinity is biblical (Jews, JWs , Unitarians and Muslims)

Not everyone agrees on your first point, because Jesus, as I said, submitted to the will of the Father. Words are important. As for the fact that “not everyone agrees,” the mere presence of a disagreement does not negate a belief. The Baha’i would disagree that Mohammad was the last prophet of God - this does not make their belief true. Likewise, the Shi’a and Sunni would disagree on who the true successor to Mohammad is, but I’m sure both sides wouldn’t believe that a disagreement from one side means the other is wrong.

As it stands, scripture and Church Tradition from the time of the apostles up to today confirms in the divinity of Christ, the Trinity, and many other orthodox (little “o”) Christian teachings. Anything else must be considered heresy.

And, as I said, there must be consistency in apologetics. If Muslims are to argue that the mere presence of a word makes something true, then, as I pointed out before, they contradict themselves.

 

[Hadi]

Not everyone agrees on your first point, because Jesus, as I said, submitted to the will of the Father. Words are important.

are you saying that Jesus didn’t submit to the will of *God *but the will of the *Father *?

 

[geometer]

**
If you bring something against what is in the gospel, that would mean contradiction in the bible. Jesus had been talking about his God and others God. He said, “I am going to my God and your God… To my Lord and your Lord…” Please explain all these things. Our mind is very clear and respectful for Jesus.**

He said, my God and your God, my father and your father…

Its somewhere in John toward the end of the story after his resurrection.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

are you saying that Jesus didn’t submit to the will of *God *but the will of the *Father *?

Congratulations on avoiding the argument.

Now please answer my concerns: can you not say that it is hypocritical to argue that the Trinity can’t be true because the word is not found in the Bible, while saying that Islam is still true even if the words Islam and Muslim are not found in the Bible?

 

[planten]

Why some Muslims believe this kind of argumentation is supposed to wow Christians, I do not know. If you are trying to score points with your own side (which I can only assume you are), then you may succeed, but do so at a Muslim forum and do not insult people on a Christian forum with self-serving rhetoric.

**B W, I quoted something from the Quran as follows:

Originally Posted by planten
In the above verses of the Quran, Abraham is calling himself a Muslim. Jacob is also calling himself Muslim. Jacob is advising his children to be Muslims. They admit and agree that they will submit to One God. That means they will be Muslims. Jesus was also one of them. he taught the same. All prophets, messengers and saints are Muslims

**.

What is wrong with that? Did I abuse any one, any prophet of God? Not at all. So why are you irritated to the boiling point? You do not like that we praise the prophets and the saints?

We’ve discussed the relevant passages with you. You continue to repeat your own argument

.

You have discussed nothing with me. Nothing about Jesus being a Muslim and Abraham being a Muslim. I give you a hint. When Jesus was praying earnestly in the garden before his arrest, he was submitting to the Will of his father i.e. The One God. He said, " Not as I will but as You will…" Is that not submission?. This I am giving you from the bibleNT, not from the Quran. I hope you will respect the words in bible and try to understand and not threaten me again.

To be honest, I am one step away from simply blocking you, and I would encourage other Christians on this forum to be in the same mindset. You do not enter into honest, let alone productive, discussions. There are fine Muslim posters on this forum, and you insult then with your intellectually dishonest tactics and willfull ignorance.

B W, Take the bold step and admit your defeat and the defeat of the Catholic faith. You want that people do not speak anything against you even if it is necessary. We Muslims will keep on believing that all prophtets were Muslims, i.e. Abraham and Moses and Muhammad. You can exclude Jesus from that list. But then you have to admit that Jesus was not a prophet/ messenger. Then you have to forget about your claim of Deut 18:18 that it was about Jesus. Think over.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

He said, my God and your God, my father and your father…

Its somewhere in John toward the end of the story after his resurrection.

Christ also prayed to God:

Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” [John 8:58]

“And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.” [John 17:6]

For a supposed prophet, Jesus said some pretty blasphemous things.

 

[geometer]

Congratulations on avoiding the argument.

Now please answer my concerns: can you not say that it is hypocritical to argue that the Trinity can’t be true because the word is not found in the Bible, while saying that Islam is still true even if the words Islam and Muslim are not found in the Bible?

The trinity is not argued in the scriptures at all. It would have called up radical problems for the writers of scripture if it had ever been proposed by any of them. It was completely unheard of by Jews, and if they had been promoting such a radical new idea, then there would have written quite a bit about it.

Where are those written arguments???

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

B W, Take the bold step and admit your defeat and the defeat of the Catholic faith. You want that people do not speak anything against you even if it is necessary. We Muslims will keep on believing that all prophtets were Muslims, i.e. Abraham and Moses and Muhammad. You can exclude Jesus from that list. But then you have to admit that Jesus was not a prophet/ messenger. Then you have to forget about your claim of Deut 18:18 that it was about Jesus. Think over.

I’ve already thought it over. And I realized that your new tactic, since people called out the smoke and mirrors on your other ploys, is to essentially declare victory. A defeated person repeats arguments and ignores the argumentation of the other side, continually avoiding any real discussion and diverting the arguments to where they want it to go. The only person to have done this is you, again and again. Every person on this forum can see this. Every person on this forum, especially those who have dealt with you, can confirm what I say.

You do the Muslims on this site a disservice. I will take the educated posts of famdigy, the sincere posts of Hadi, and the humble posts of Zaki a million times to a single post by you. You can declare this a victory, and if it is indeed a victory to you…then I wish you such a “victory” every day of your life.

And furthermore, the defeat of “the Catholic faith” is of no concern to me. I’m Orthodox (I’m amazed that few on this forum seem capable of reading the “religion” status on the upper right of a person’s post ). What matters to me is the Truth of Christianity, and the Truth is there, because the Truth is Jesus Christ.

 

[geometer]

For a supposed prophet, Jesus said some pretty blasphemous things.

I still like him. If he said anything that was blasphemous that was between him and God. His gospel still stands, the power of men to become sons of God.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

The trinity is not argued in the scriptures at all. It would have called up radical problems for the writers of scripture if it had ever been proposed by any of them. It was completely unheard of by Jews, and if they had been promoting such a radical new idea, then there would have written quite a bit about it.

The early apostles were by and large Jews, and they not only believed in the Trinity but experienced it - at Christ’s baptism, at His Transfiguration, and through the realization of Pentecost. The early Church Fathers, from Saint Irenaeus to Justin Martyr to many others, wrote on it. The Trinity is a reality of the early Church and early Christianity in general.

But again, this avoids the problem in Muslim apologetics, which no one seems willing to approach.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

I still like him. If he said anything that was blasphemous that was between him and God. His gospel still stands, the power of men to become sons of God.

That post was written entirely in sarcasm.

 

[planten]

Christ also prayed to God:

Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” [John 8:58]

This is a complicated sentence. It cannot be the basis of any important serious matter.

“And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.” [John 17:6]

** That was very good. Jesus said the right thing. He wanted to be glorified by the glory of God whom he called Father by way of Love. He wants to be glorified. The end bit of sentence is again complicated “before the world was.” We do not challenge you for any of those things. You go ahead and believe what you like. We have no problem**.

For a supposed prophet, Jesus said some pretty blasphemous things.

Nothing of that kind. Jesus did not say anything wrong. He was right in asking God to glorify him. That is a mission of all messengers. And God does glorify them all. Even if the whole wolrd wants to trample the messengers underfoot, the God Almighty does not allow that. But He gives them a good uplift (fame and glory) in this world and a great reward in the after life.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

This is a complicated sentence. It cannot be the basis of any important serious matter…

…The end bit of sentence is again complicated “before the world was.”

We already discussed this. There is nothing complicated about these sentences. Everyone from 33 AD up to now has understood what they meant. The only people who could possibly believe they were complicated are those who wish to avoid the Truth and pretend ignorance.

Again, to repeat an argument with demonstrating it is not a real argument.

 

[geometer]

The early apostles were by and large Jews, and they not only believed in the Trinity but experienced it - at Christ’s baptism, at His Transfiguration, and through the realization of Pentecost. The early Church Fathers, from Saint Irenaeus to Justin Martyr to many others, wrote on it. The Trinity is a reality of the early Church and early Christianity in general.

But again, this avoids the problem in Muslim apologetics, which no one seems willing to approach.

Jews have never believed in trinity. Why would you think that they did? If trinity was part of the gospel message, why didn’t it create controversey?

Saint Irenaeus Justin Martyr and others? You must be kidding.

Why didn’t Paul who was an accomplished writer write elaborately about trinity, like he did everything else?