Wasn't Jesus a Muslim?

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Can any one willingly respond to the question regarding the hypocrisy in Muslim apologetics, or will the non sequitor fallacy be played over and over again?

 

[geometer]

Can any one willingly respond to the question regarding the hypocrisy in Muslim apologetics, or will the non sequitor fallacy be played over and over again?

Well, if they believe that the words of Jesus in the bible are in many instances cryptic, who can falt them for that? They are.

If anything is said bluntly it can mean all kinds of things, and Jesus was very often blunt. He was not a scribe…

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Well, if they believe that the words of Jesus in the bible are in many instances cryptic, who can falt them for that? They are.

They do not argue that Christ’s words were cryptic. Reread the thread to understand the issue.

 

[geometer]

They do not argue that Christ’s words were cryptic. Reread the thread to understand the issue.

“Originally Posted by planten
This is a complicated sentence. It cannot be the basis of any important serious matter…”

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

“Originally Posted by planten
This is a complicated sentence. It cannot be the basis of any important serious matter…”

The conversation I was referring to happened between Hadi and myself. I suggest you research the thread just a bit deeper.

 

[geometer]

The conversation I was referring to happened between Hadi and myself. I suggest you research the thread just a bit deeper.

Sorry I couldn’t find anything that justifies what you had said…

Hadi had said that trinity was not agreed upon by all christians.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Sorry I couldn’t find anything that justifies what you had said…

Hadi had said that trinity was not agreed upon by all christians.

:ehh::doh2:

Doesn’t that mean that the old Muslim argument that the Trinity can’t be true because it isn’t specifically named in the Bible? After all, you’ve just admitted essentially that Islam hasn’t been known about until much long after the Trinity was revealed.

This was on the first page.

 

[elwill]

So, if my boss, who is very trustworthy in business comes to us and says he has received revelations from God which contradict previous scriptures I should believe him?

hey jay , i didn’t mean that , i said that it’s a valid reason not it’s enough reason
in the contrary you trust paul who lived his life as an enemy for the church and followers of jesus because he saw a vision

I would like to know actual proof that Muhammad gave that his revelations are from God - not how people who liked him were duped.

well , for the sake of benefits to our discussion can you show me actual proof that bible is from God , so that i can understand which kind of proofs you consider it to be actual proofs

Again, who says that the Quran is a miracle? God has not said so. It may say so in the Quran, but that is self-serving at best - of course Muhammad would include that. Muhammad contradicts previous scriptures (i.e. in the matter of divorce just for one example.) Why should we believe that it is from God?
[/quoute]
you believe that OT is from God while it allows polygamy (as one example ) , right ?

This has been addressed several times in other threads. I honestly don’t have time right now to go through all the verses in the Bible again where these things are recorded. (Perhaps someone else will be kind enough to do so.) If you read the Bible you will find them.

it’s okey , i know how the answers will be , but it will not satisfied me to mention me about the verses which christians use as a proof that jesus is God , my question is about if jesus asked his followers to worship or pray to him or to believe in his death after his death as to be main requirments to get the salvation !

because i can proof to you that according to words of jesus in the bible , you can get the eternal life without believing in divinity of jesus , without believing in trinity and without believing in fate of jesus

No, absolutely not!!! Jesus NEVER said to kill unbelievers, stone adulterers, divorce is OK, etc. The messages are definitely not the same. Jesus did affirm His Divinity - again I don’t have time to post all the verses again.

i’m not talking about the details and laws of the massage , i’m talking about the main principles of the massage of God to all his prophets
**“All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” Matthew 22:39 **

I fully agree in the Bible verses you quoted - to love God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength and to love your neighbor as yourself. Loving your neighbor as yourself does not mean killling unbelievers, “taking not Jews and Christians as friends”, turning aside from pagans because they are “unclean”. Your/my neighbor is every human being on earth.

i completely agree with you , that’s why i say that massage of jesus is the same of islam

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

in the contrary you trust paul who lived his life as an enemy for the church and followers of jesus because he saw a vision

One might almost compare Paul to Mohammad…except Paul had witnesses to the light and voice and had his apostleship granted through someone else under divine guidance, not self-confirmed like Mohammad.

I’m often amused when Muslims try to use Paul’s past against him. In fact, he lamented his past, and made up for it 100-fold by helping the Church grow. God forgave him and used him as a tool for His Church to grow - it was done to show His might.

It is also a wonder why Muslims don’t use the same treatment of Paul against those Muslims who originally fought against Mohammad with the Meccan pagans but then later turned to Islam.

my question is about if jesus asked his followers to worship or pray to him or to believe in his death after his death as to be main requirments to get the salvation !

Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And you are witnesses of these things." [Luke 24:46-48]

“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” [John 3:16]

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." [John 14:6]

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die…" [John 11:25-26]

 

[elwill]

One might almost compare Paul to Mohammad…except Paul had witnesses to the light and voice and had his apostleship granted through someone else under divine guidance, not self-confirmed like Mohammad.

I’m often amused when Muslims try to use Paul’s past against him. In fact, he lamented his past, and made up for it 100-fold by helping the Church grow. God forgave him and used him as a tool for His Church to grow - it was done to show His might.

i don’t try to compare between paul and mohammed (pbuh) , jay wanted to tell me that trustworthy of mohammed (pbuh) isn’t enough to trust him ( i didn’t deny his view by the way ) . i just said to her that you yourself trust a man have no miracles or clues and more than that , he used to kill the christians

It is also a wonder why Muslims don’t use the same treatment of Paul against those Muslims who originally fought against Mohammad with the Meccan pagans but then later turned to Islam.

muslims base thier religion on the teaching of quran and sunnah , those muslims who later turned to islam didn’t change the religion nor make some additions to it nor did they have add teaching contradicts to the main massage

Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And you are witnesses of these things." [Luke 24:46-48]

written where ?

“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” [John 3:16]

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." [John 14:6]

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die…" [John 11:25-26]

i have no problems with all these verses
i believe that God sent his prophets to guide people , it means that he loves us
and i believe that jesus was prophet of truth from God to his people , which means they should find the way , the life and the truth through his teachings

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

i don’t try to compare between paul and mohammed (pbuh) , jay wanted to tell me that trustworthy of mohammed (pbuh) isn’t enough to trust him ( i didn’t deny his view by the way ) .

Mohammad shouldn’t be trusted. He had an isolated revelation that only he saw, only heard, and only he could confirm. It is ironic that the Koran talks of witnesses being needed to verify things legally and socially, yet the one thing they didn’t have witnesses to was the revelation given to Mohammad.

Paul, on the other hand, has plenty of witnesses to his story - it wasn’t an isolated revelation. The people with him heard the voice (Acts 9:7) and saw the light (Acts 22:9). Furthermore, Paul did not stand up and immediately consider himself an apostle - rather, his apostleship was revealed through another man, Ananias (Acts 9:10-19).

Likewise, Paul didn’t consider himself one of the greatest prophets of God like Mohammad did. Even Paul himself said he was just an apostle, no more no less, and the Church considers him simply an apostle.

i just said to her that you yourself trust a man have no miracles or clues and more than that

:ehh:

• Acts 13:6-11 - Strikes a man blind.
• Acts 14:8-10 - Heals a crippled man.
• Acts 16:16-18 - Heals a slave girl of a demonic possession.
• Acts 20:7-12 - Raises a dead man.
• Acts 27:9-13 - Accurately predicts misfortune will befall a ship.
• Acts 28:3-6 - Survives a poisonous snake bite without any harm.
• Acts 28:7-10 - Heals Publius’s father.
• Acts 15:12 - Many more unlisted miracles are referred to.

Please study Chrisian scripture before debating with Christians.

and more than that , he used to kill the christians

And Umar bin al Khattab used to beat Muslims, worshiped idols, and buried his daughters alive as was custom. In fact, he was setting out to kill Mohammad himself when he found his sister reading the Koran and eventually converted. To be consistent, will you criticize al Khattab? Will you shrug him off because of his past? Most likely not.

Yes Paul did bad things, but he repented. That is the point of repentance. God forgave him of his sins, and he made up for it a hundred-fold, as I said. His past is not relevant except to show that his conversion was a sign of God’s infinite mercy and all-powerful grace. That is a beautiful thing to consider.

The fact is Christians know what Paul used to do, and they also understand that the apostles themselves accepted him into their fold and worked with him. It is therefore humorous to me that Muslims bring up Paul’s past as if this is some shocker Christians don’t know about, or Christians are going to swoon over these words.

written where ?

In the Old Testament scriptures. Christ’s suffering was foretold.

But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement for our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed. [Isaiah 53:5]

i have no problems with all these verses
i believe that God sent his prophets to guide people , it means that he loves us
and i believe that jesus was prophet of truth from God to his people , which means they should find the way , the life and the truth through his teachings

I think you do not understand the force behind these passages, or you are being willfully ignorant.

The Jews had the understanding that the only one who could bring about the Resurrection was God. Now Christ is saying that He, not God, is the Resurrection, and that any one who believes in Him, not God, will have eternal life. No prophet ever spoke like this, they always attributed the Resurrection to God. Therefore, if Christ was simply a prophet, then He was a blaspheming one.

Furthermore, Jews understood God to be the Way, the Truth, and the Light. Christ, again, is saying that He is these things. He does not say that His teachings are, but that He is. Christ is speaking in absolutes that before had only been attributed to God. Again, if Christ was a mere prophet, then He was a blaspheming one.

And again, why is faith in the Son important? Christ clearly states that those who believe in Him and not God will “not perish but have everlasting life.” This is only attributed to God and God alone, not mortal men on earth. No prophet, not even Elijah who lived in the days of great apostasy, ever said that you had to believe in them and not God to be saved.

Again, the language is clear, and from the language it is also clear that if Jesus is just a man, then he’s a blasphemer, and if He was just a prophet, then he was a false prophet who sought glory for Himself and put Himself on equal with God.

 

[geometer]

Furthermore, Jews understood God to be the Way, the Truth, and the Light. Christ, again, is saying that He is these things. He does not say that His teachings are, but that He is. Christ is speaking in absolutes that before had only been attributed to God. Again, if Christ was a mere prophet, then He was a blaspheming one.

You misunderstood Jesus. He had not come to deny God. He said to believe in the one who had sent him, God the father. He said that he is the way the truth and the life, and no man comes to the father except by him. He was pointing to his own name, which means salvation.

And by the way the word salvation is not always singular in hebrew, pointing to only one thing. The Rabbis have written about the salvations of God, yeshuot.

 

[sedonaman]

The question is absolutely ridiculous.

Jesus was born a Jew. The Qu’ran says that during the final days, the Jews and the Muslims will fight each other, and that the rocks and trees will cry out for Muslims to slay the Jews hiding behind them. If Jesus was both a Jew and a Muslim, he will have to kill himself, and we all know that suicide is not permitted for Muslims. How do I know? They tell us.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

You misunderstood Jesus. He had not come to deny God.

I never said He did.

 

[StrawberryJam]

I found the following transcript very interesting and a great read (although a little long). Comments/discussion are most welcome!

debate.org.uk/topics/theo/jes-musl.htm

Peace to all!

Jesus was not a muslim, but I don’t think he would like how muslims get treated here either.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Can’t the mother of Jesus, Mary be in all your hearts while posting, both catholic and muslim?

Can you imagine the pain she feels knowing this kind of argumentation is happening?

I keep Mary in my thoughts, and wonder how she feels about this kind of fighting.

She loved God.

Muslims love God. Catholics love God.

You both love Mary.

Can’t you stop fighting?

 

[planten]

The question is absolutely ridiculous.

Jesus was born a Jew. The Qu’ran says that during the final days, the Jews and the Muslims will fight each other, and that the rocks and trees will cry out for Muslims to slay the Jews hiding behind them. If Jesus was both a Jew and a Muslim, he will have to kill himself, and we all know that suicide is not permitted for Muslims. How do I know? They tell us.

**You seem to be a recent convert to christianity, having little knowledge about Islam or anything. Quran did not say anything that you posted. Those things are found in some Hadith. So they are subject to scrutiny. May not be true.

Quran does not say, in the final days the Jews and the Muslims will fight each other, and that the rocks and trees will cry out for Muslims to slay the Jews hiding behind them**. Your presenting it here is all nonsense, not found in the Quran.

So the rest of your post is all fallacy.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Can’t the mother of Jesus, Mary be in all your hearts while posting, both catholic and muslim?

Can you imagine the pain she feels knowing this kind of argumentation is happening?

I keep Mary in my thoughts, and wonder how she feels about this kind of fighting.

She loved God.

Muslims love God. Catholics love God.

You both love Mary.

Can’t you stop fighting?

A while ago I scolded someone because they believed 9/11 was a conspiracy, and I had almost lost my father on 9/11. Imagine how the Virgin Mary must feel that some people think her Son was never crucified. Or maybe the Muslims who believe in the swoon theory or think it was Judas on the cross can explain to her that all the tears, pain and grief she felt seeing her Son whipped, beaten, mocked, nailed to a cross and stabbed was all just a clever ploy by God, and that those last moments of her Son’s life as he passed away on the cross right in front of her were actually some other guy.

The Virgin Mary was a devout follower of God, yes, but the God that came through the Prophets and Who was finally revealed through her Son - not the God of a man who had a personal revelation given by some spirit who fits the bill described by Paul of being a demon.

You seem to be a recent convert to christianity, having little knowledge about Islam or anything. Quran did not say anything that you posted. Those things are found in some Hadith. So they are subject to scrutiny. May not be true.

OK. Please explain to us in a scholarly fashion - citing sources and giving accountable argumentation - why those specific hadiths mentioned have to be called into question and cannot be trustworthy.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Mary could be a bridge to catholics and muslims. Why not let it go?

If she really is the Immaculate Conception, who had to show herself to teach a dogma then, why not let it rest where muslims also love Mary? And let her do the rest?

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Mary could be a bridge to catholics and muslims. Why not let it go?

She could, but she can’t be used to forgo what her Son died for - that would be an insult to them both. As John MacArthur once said, you can’t forsake Divine Truth for superfluous peace.

In the Orthodox we call her the Theotokos - the Mother of God. She was called this by the early Church, and it is evident in their writings. Muslims deny Christ is the fullness of God, therefore that title is stripped from her. To me, that’s an insult.