Wasn't Jesus' Bloodshed/Sacrifice Enough?

[myfavoritmartin]

Nice thought but I am confused. Why wouldn’t God know everybody ‘intimately’? Canyou connect the dots with some scripture please just to help me along with this?

Sure! here you go…Hope this helps.
Matt. 7:22-23
On that day many will say to me, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?” Then I will declare to them, “I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers.” **
John 10:27
My sheep hear my voice. I know them, and they follow me.
John 13:18
I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen**. But it is to fulfil the scripture, “The one who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.”
Gal. 4:9
Now, however, that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and beggarly elemental spirits? How can you want to be enslaved to them again?
2 Tim. 2:19
But God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this inscription: ‘The Lord knows those who are his’, and, ‘Let everyone who calls on the name of the Lord turn away from wickedness.’

 

[Teflon93]

I don’t believe that I’ve ever met anyone who truly and sincerely believes that Jesus’ sacrifice was enough–enough in the sense that absolutely nothing else is required. Nearly all would say that at least a confession of faith is required. That is, a human being must confess Faith in Jesus for his salvation to be effective. That confession of faith, though inspired by grace, is a human action. Not many believe that God forces belief or forces salvation on human beings.

If absolutely no human action is required, then of course, everyone alike would be saved: believers as well as non-believers, Buddhists, Muslims, and militant atheists, because Jesus’ sacrifice would be absolutely enough.

I have—in one of the Protestant flipflop churches we had a visiting pastor who claimed that Christ saved us all and we had to do nothing except acknowledge that fact. Is the acknowledgement “doing” something in this sense?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

If Jesus’ death on the cross was fully sufficient, EVERYONE would go to Heaven.

God only knows believers, so in that sense everyone who God knows will go to heaven.

KNOWS in the intimate sense, HE obviously is omniscient and therefore know every thing and body. But scripture says He only knows us believers intimately.

Nice thought but I am confused. Why wouldn’t God know everybody ‘intimately’? Canyou connect the dots with some scripture please just to help me along with this?

Sure! here you go…Hope this helps.
Matt. 7:22-23
On that day many will say to me, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?” Then I will declare to them, “I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers.” **
John 10:27
My sheep hear my voice. I know them, and they follow me.
John 13:18
I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen**. But it is to fulfil the scripture, “The one who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.”
Gal. 4:9
Now, however, that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and beggarly elemental spirits? How can you want to be enslaved to them again?
2 Tim. 2:19
But God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this inscription: ‘The Lord knows those who are his’, and, ‘Let everyone who calls on the name of the Lord turn away from wickedness.’

This should explain alot.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Christ’s ultimate sacrifice is all we will ever need unto salvation.

 

[Penitus]

KNOWS in the intimate sense, HE obviously is omniscient and therefore know every thing and body. But scripture says He only knows us believers intimately.

My Bible says otherwise:

John 3:16 states that God so loved the WORLD that he sent His only Son. Nowhere does it say that God only loves those whom he “intimately knows.”

Christ died for ALL MEN, not merely the ones who he intimately knows (Romans 5:18, 2 Corinthians 5:15, 1 Timothy 4:10).

 

[Penitus]

Christ’s ultimate sacrifice is all we will ever need unto salvation.

So then why do you believe we have to accept Him by faith?

 

[JimG]

I have—in one of the Protestant flipflop churches we had a visiting pastor who claimed that Christ saved us all and we had to do nothing except acknowledge that fact. Is the acknowledgement “doing” something in this sense?

If we have to acknowledge the fact, that is a human action which is required in addition to Christ’s sacrifice. So even that pastor didn’t believe that the fact of Christ’s sacrifice was enough.

 

[VociMike]

If God doesn’t know the unsaved, how does he know that they are not saved?

And of course, you have now denied God’s omniscience. That could be problematic.

 

[VociMike]

If we have to acknowledge the fact, that is a human action which is required in addition to Christ’s sacrifice. So even that pastor didn’t believe that the fact of Christ’s sacrifice was enough.

Darn!

But really, it’s amazing how one’s eternal salvation could rest on such a slim, even trivial exercise. If we sent a person to prison for life based on such a trivial “test” we would rightly be considered savage and immoral beings.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

So then why do you believe we have to accept Him by faith?

Is that precisely what you heard from me?

 

[guanophore]

The short answer is that Christ died so our sin could be forgiven.

That does not really satisfy either, because suffering remains, even after one is forgiven through the merits of Christ.

 

[cpayne]

Is that precisely what you heard from me?

Okay, I’ll bite.

(1) Do you believe people have to accept Christ by faith in order to be saved?

(2) Do you believe that acceptance by faith is something WE have to do, not Christ—i.e., a “work”?

(3) If you are thinking of the verse which says even our faith in Christ is a gift from God—does God only give that gift to some people? On what basis?

(4) If your answer is that God gives the gift of faith on the basis of whether or not people will accept it—is that acceptance a “work” that some people do and others don’t? Is that what determines our salvation through Christ?

(5) If someone is offered salvation in Christ and accepts it by faith, is that it? Do they have to do anything else for the rest of their lives to be saved?

Actually, responses to just the first two questions would be fine.

 

[guanophore]

Okay, I’ll bite.

(1) Do you believe people have to accept Christ by faith in order to be saved?

(2) Do you believe that acceptance by faith is something WE have to do, not Christ—i.e., a “work”?

(3) If you are thinking of the verse which says even our faith in Christ is a gift from God—does God only give that gift to some people? On what basis?

(4) If your answer is that God gives the gift of faith on the basis of whether or not people will accept it—is that acceptance a “work” that some people do and others don’t? Is that what determines our salvation through Christ?

(5) If someone is offered salvation in Christ and accepts it by faith, is that it? Do they have to do anything else for the rest of their lives to be saved?

Actually, responses to just the first two questions would be fine.

I think he believes in predestination and election. That means some people are created to be damned, and that Christ only died to save the elect.

 

[cpayne]

I think he believes in predestination and election. That means some people are created to be damned, and that Christ only died to save the elect.

I think you’re right, although I haven’t checked out MFM’s posts that closely. (I do think the name is clever, though.) That’s why I stuck in Question 3: On what basis does God create some to be damned and others to be saved?

The whole thing about extreme Calvinism or whatever this is: It makes believers appear inhumane in their witness, and it makes God appear a monster. No amount of Scripture-quoting gets around this.

IMHO.

 

[cpayne]

Let me modify the previous post: I was not referring specifically to MyFavoriteMartin. As I said, I don’t even know his theology. I do know a lot of hard-line Calvinists, however. :bigyikes: And those are the ones about whom I was writing.

 

[mercygate]

Sure! here you go…Hope this helps.
Matt. 7:22-23
On that day many will say to me, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?” Then I will declare to them, “I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers.” **
John 10:27
My sheep hear my voice. I know them, and they follow me.
John 13:18
I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen**. But it is to fulfil the scripture, “The one who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.”
Gal. 4:9
Now, however, that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and beggarly elemental spirits? How can you want to be enslaved to them again?
2 Tim. 2:19
But God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this inscription: ‘The Lord knows those who are his’, and, ‘Let everyone who calls on the name of the Lord turn away from wickedness.’

Thank you. I think that in some places here you are fiddling with the word “know” but it’s a nice point anyway and it holds up in the spiritual sense. Shows the essential relationship between what we say we believe and how we live.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

So then why do you believe we have to accept Him by faith?

Because HE said so.

 

[jemfinch]

There is a difference between sins and the consequences for them . Take the Fall. Because of it, things like disease came into the world. Christ died for our sins, but why do we still get diseases?

The short answer is that Christ died so our sin could be forgiven.

But if Christ’s Bloodshed/Sacrifice is enough, why do I have consequences for my sins? He took away the eternal consequence of my sins, spiritial death, so why can’t He take away the other consequences? They should be easy in comparison!

(In case it’s not clear, I’m making a point, not really asking for my personal edification )

Jeremy

 

[dranzal]

Basically, the answer is because Christ wants us, as members of His body, to co-operate in His saving actions. We, through offering our suffering, can join in His suffering for the betterment of the Church. don’t forget about what St. Paul said in Colossians 1
23 If so ye continue in the faith, grounded and settled, and immoveable from the hope of the gospel which you have heard, which is preached in all the creation that is under heaven, whereof I Paul am made a minister.
***24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church: ***

As for forgiveness of our sins, Christ Himself told us to confess our sins and told the Apostles, and likewise their successors, that whoever’s sins they forgive are forgiven, and whoever’s sins they hold bound are held bound. Now, Christ didn’t say things just to hear Himself talk, so obviously He truly meant what He said here.

Protestants love St. Paul (not that we don’t). This verse is amazing on so many levels. It speaks directly to the OP question.

 

[Penitus]

Because HE said so.

Amen. As a Catholic, I believe 100% that we are saved by our faith in Christ.

However, you’re contradicting yourself.

1)You said Christ’s sacrifice ALONE is all that is required for salvation.
2) You said that faith ALONE is all that is required for salvation.

Friend, see that Christ did not save us, but rather redeemed us. He “opened the door to Heaven” if you will. Now we have access to the Father. For you, that means salvation by faith. For us, that means salvation by faith and good works. Both are gifts from God.