Wasn't Luther complaining about a relatively small portion of the Church?

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I have poked around looking for this - and I can’t find it yet. Can someone provide a pointer for me?

I got a small snippet from listening to Catholic radio that caused me to wonder exactly how much of the Church was involved in rewarding indulgences for money. Was the whole Catholic church doing this? Did the Pope advocate for this? Or, was it localize to a single Bishop?

Also, were Luther’s complaints in regards to the Church teachings or the behavior of some of the Church leaders?
 
I believe that Pope Leo X sold indulgences to fund St. Peter’s Basilica.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Leo_X
Via Wikipedia: “He [Pope Leo X] is known for granting indulgences for those who donated to reconstruct St. Peter’s Basilica and his challenging of Martin Luther’s 95 Theses.”
 
From all that I’ve read on one point of Luther’s grievances (theses) with the Church, selling of indulgences. It was a common, very lucrative, and widespread practice throughout the Church. The Pope, Leo X, received half of the revenue from the sale of indulgences to pay for St. Peter’s Church in Rome.

As to the other 94 theses, I have no idea.
 
in_servitude said:
I have poked around looking for this - and I can’t find it yet. Can someone provide a pointer for me?

I got a small snippet from listening to Catholic radio that caused me to wonder exactly how much of the Church was involved in rewarding indulgences for money. Was the whole Catholic church doing this? Did the Pope advocate for this? Or, was it localize to a single Bishop?

Also, were Luther’s complaints in regards to the Church teachings or the behavior of some of the Church leaders?
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I think originally his complaint was only towards the behavior of specific religious leaders… but after awhile things spiraled out of control.
 
in_servitude said:
I have poked around looking for this - and I can’t find it yet. Can someone provide a pointer for me?

I got a small snippet from listening to Catholic radio that caused me to wonder exactly how much of the Church was involved in rewarding indulgences for money. Was the whole Catholic church doing this? Did the Pope advocate for this? Or, was it localize to a single Bishop?

Also, were Luther’s complaints in regards to the Church teachings or the behavior of some of the Church leaders?
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Germany was rich, like today. So, to built St. Peter’s Church they went to Germany not to Sicily.

Well, things got bad because there are always people that with the best of the intentions say things the wrong way.

Luther was right on what he said not what he did.

I find even today 1001 sins in the Catholic World that could lead me out of the Church if I took the same attitude of Luther.

Whatever complaints he had against the Church, he lost all reason when he took the way out instead of correcting the Church from within like so many saints did. St Theresa of Avila and many saints reformed their Institutions for they were going the wrong way, they did not take the easy way: to create a Church “ready-made-for-me”.
 
It was common in the old days to pin stuff to the door of the church of ideas people had.
Luther had 95 items on his list. Below is his complaint about indulgence: It was widespread. People even paid to have their sins forgiven.

Indulgences: These were ‘certificates’ produced in bulk that had been pre-signed by the pope which pardoned a person’s sins and gave you access to heaven. Basically if you knew that you had sinned you would wait until a pardoner was in your region selling an indulgence and purchase one as the pope, being God’s representative on Earth, would forgive your sins and you would be pardoned. This industry was later expanded to allow people to buy an indulgence for a dead relative who might be in purgatory or Hell and relieve that relative of his sins. By doing this you would be seen by the Catholic Church of committing a Christian act and this would elevate your status in the eyes of God.

He also felt the Bible should be available for everyone to read.
 
plainandsimple said:
I believe that Pope Leo X sold indulgences to fund St. Peter’s Basilica.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Leo_X
Via Wikipedia: “He [Pope Leo X] is known for granting indulgences for those who donated to reconstruct St. Peter’s Basilica and his challenging of Martin Luther’s 95 Theses.”
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That’s the problem with Wiki. . .

An indulgence may be granted by those with legitimate authority (priests, bishops, and yes the Pope). But it is not SOLD.

A donation is a GIFT.

Now, here’s the scenario.

Pope asks the faithful for donations for a project.

Man donates.
Man also–and separately from the donation-- asks for an indulgence. . .promises the usual. . .prayers, fasting, free from attachment to sin.
Pope grants indulgence.

The DONATION was given by the man–the indulgence given by the Pope–but the donation was NOT given in order to ‘get’ the indulgence, and the indulgence was NOT given as a result of the donation.
 
Back in the day you needed to pay, the Church charged.

now if may be called a donation today.🙂
 
Luvtosew said:
Back in the day you needed to pay, the Church charged.

now if may be called a donation today.🙂
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No, the Church never sold indulgences.

People in the Church may have (wrongly) done so, but the Church never taught this.

Heck, priests and bishops have sinned, but does that mean the Church teaches the sin is right? Why not? If a priest for example steals from the collection plate, does that mean the Church teaches that it’s all right to steal from the collection plate? Well, what is the difference between any other sin then?

I would be very interested to see you show us where the Catholic Church ever specifically taught “an indulgence will be granted to a person upon payment of a sum of money.”

For a Catholic --and one who obviously has an extremely cool hobby – you seem to make a fair amount of statements that are not so subtly critical of the Church, such as the above. . .
 
Church, Pope, Bishop, same thing. Read history, and not just Catholic, the Church and the people running it sold indulgences. No money, we’ll take a cow!

Indulgences: These were ‘certificates’ produced in bulk that had been pre-signed by the pope which pardoned a person’s sins and gave you access to heaven. Basically if you knew that you had sinned you would wait until a pardoner was in your region selling an indulgence and purchase one as the pope, being God’s representative on Earth, would forgive your sins and you would be pardoned. This industry was later expanded to allow people to buy an indulgence for a dead relative who might be in purgatory or Hell and relieve that relative of his sins. By doing this you would be seen by the Catholic Church of committing a Christian act and this would elevate your status in the eyes of God.
 
luther may or may not have had a legitimate gripe, but the path he took was heretical and ended in apostasy, and gave rise to calvin and all the other heretics who followed. It also allowed the monarchs of Europe to destroy the True Church in favor of the new protestant church which they could use to control their people. Read your history, from a reliable source, and not wiki whatever.
 
Luvtosew said:
Church, Pope, Bishop, same thing. Read history, and not just Catholic, the Church and the people running it sold indulgences. No money, we’ll take a cow!

Indulgences: These were ‘certificates’ produced in bulk that had been pre-signed by the pope which pardoned a person’s sins and gave you access to heaven. Basically if you knew that you had sinned you would wait until a pardoner was in your region selling an indulgence and purchase one as the pope, being God’s representative on Earth, would forgive your sins and you would be pardoned. This industry was later expanded to allow people to buy an indulgence for a dead relative who might be in purgatory or Hell and relieve that relative of his sins. By doing this you would be seen by the Catholic Church of committing a Christian act and this would elevate your status in the eyes of God.
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You keep saying this. Where, may I ask, is the proof of this unsupported assertion?

As for ‘reading history,’ my dear, I majored in History back in the 1980s. I have, and continue to, ‘read’ history, and certainly not ‘just the Catholic history’. Why would you assume I have not?
 
Luvtosew said:
Church, Pope, Bishop, same thing. Read history, and not just Catholic, the Church and the people running it sold indulgences. No money, we’ll take a cow!

Indulgences: These were ‘certificates’ produced in bulk that had been pre-signed by the pope which pardoned a person’s sins and gave you access to heaven. Basically if you knew that you had sinned you would wait until a pardoner was in your region selling an indulgence and purchase one as the pope, being God’s representative on Earth, would forgive your sins and you would be pardoned. This industry was later expanded to allow people to buy an indulgence for a dead relative who might be in purgatory or Hell and relieve that relative of his sins. By doing this you would be seen by the Catholic Church of committing a Christian act and this would elevate your status in the eyes of God.
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Funny thing, I just saw this ‘definition’ on Ask. com.
 
Luvtosew said:
Church, Pope, Bishop, same thing. Read history, and not just Catholic, the Church and the people running it sold indulgences. No money, we’ll take a cow!

Indulgences: These were ‘certificates’ produced in bulk that had been pre-signed by the pope which pardoned a person’s sins and gave you access to heaven. Basically if you knew that you had sinned you would wait until a pardoner was in your region selling an indulgence and purchase one as the pope, being God’s representative on Earth, would forgive your sins and you would be pardoned. This industry was later expanded to allow people to buy an indulgence for a dead relative who might be in purgatory or Hell and relieve that relative of his sins. By doing this you would be seen by the Catholic Church of committing a Christian act and this would elevate your status in the eyes of God.
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And here’s a bit about the author of this site:

Chris Trueman BA (Hons), MA set up www.historylearningsite.co.uk in 2000 as he felt there was no easily accessible and comprehensive website on World History on the web. The site has grown in popularity and is now viewed by hundreds of thousands of people each month from around the world.
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/clear.gif

Chris has written all the content for the site from his in-depth knowledge of History having taught History and Politics at a major secondary school in England for the last 26 years. Chris graduated with a BA (Honours) in History from Aberystwyth University, Wales in 1979 and has since studied at Loughborough University and gained a MA in management from Brighton University in 2000.

So. . .this man has taught at a ‘major secondary school’. . .his BA is History and his MA is MANAGEMENT. . .

I’m just sayin’. . .To cite this paragraph as ‘authoritative’ and ‘defining’ regarding indulgences isn’t exactly scholarly. . .
 
Hey its ok, believe what you want.It doesn’t matter, I’ve read the same thing elsewhere, its not a secret. The important thing is now and the future.🙂 Peace
 
Luvtosew said:
Hey its ok, believe what you want.It doesn’t matter, I’ve read the same thing elsewhere, its not a secret. The important thing is now and the future.🙂 Peace
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But it does matter.

Either something is true, or it isn’t. Something doesn’t become true if ‘lots of people’ believe and it doesn’t become false if lots of people don’t believe.

What you posted is either true or it’s not true. If it’s true, it isn’t true because you ‘read it lots of places’. And if it’s not true, it’s not true no matter how often you see it.

The important thing is TRUTH.
 
Luvtosew said:
Back in the day you needed to pay, the Church charged.

now if may be called a donation today.🙂
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I take it that you’re taking a pass on providing any source for this claim.

It’s one thing to say “Church” and quite another to say “Church leader”. Otherwise, the Pope having a confessor would be a great scandal. At this point, I do not believe your claim is valid.
 
conservapedia.com/Martin_Luther

Make sure you read it all . I’m sure yous can find it on your own. Its not unknown.

Is the Church just the building or the people in it?

Hope this link is good, I’m sure this site is corrupt as well.

The important thing is TRUTH I couldn’t agree more Tantum.🙂
 
Why aren’t you checking out Catholic sources for what you are claiming was a Catholic practice?

Why not check out the articles on “Indulgences” and “the Reformation” at www.newadvent.org instead?

New Advent is the site of the Catholic Encyclopedia.
 
I want to make sure we’re sticking to topic. . .

the point (as the articles in the Catholic Encyclopedia specifically show) is that not only was the number of people ‘relatively’ small who engaged in true ABUSE by attempting to ‘sell indulgences’. . .although naturally one is still one too many. . .

the point is that the Church itself repeatedly taught that selling indulgences was wrong. The Church NEVER taught that selling indulgences was right.

Think about it.

Suppose you have a group of people who sell cosmetics. They know that the face cream is good but it’s not going to be able to eradicate blemishes forever or make a 60 year old woman look 20. And the makers of the cosmetics tell the salespeople this. over and over. They print it in the handbook, they give talks on it, there’s a web page on it, etc. and etc., years and years.

But you get the occasional salesperson who tries to tell the 60 year old woman that it will restore her to the beauty of youth. . .

deliberately going against what he has been told, going against company policy, etc.

Now, are you going to tell me that the COMPANY (because of these people) goes around claiming its stuff will do miracles?

Or are you going to tell me it’s a few rogues and the company has nothing to do with their trumped up claims?

A few rotten apples, especially over time, are annoying. . .but they aren’t the whole orchard.
 
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