Watchman Nee

[Fidelis]

Does anyone have any reliable information on the teachings of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, founders of the “local church” movement? I am writing an article about them, especially the anti-Catholic aspects of their writings. References would be appreciated. Thanks!

 

[Apologia100]

Sure, go to www.watchmannee.org

It appreas that this young man is heavily influenced by the Dispensational Millenialist perspective of Christian Fundamentalism.

 

[Tallow]

I just posted elsewhere on this topic. Didn’t see your post until after.

Watchman Nee was a Chinese man “saved” by Baptist missionaries in China sometime in the 30s. He founded a church there and moved to Taiwan after the revolution, where his church is still headquartered. He sent missionaries to the US who started an American church in Anaheim, later in Texas, NY, Norfolk, VA, and Boston. They seem to be spreading quite rapidly, as are other virulently anti-Catholic churches. One of Nee’s disciples, Witness Lee, took over the church after Nee’s death and has recently died also. Don’t know who the head honcho is now. They have a publishing arm and web site called Living Stream Ministry.

Their basic error, from which all their other errors seem to flow, seems to me to be that of Marcion (Do I have that right?). They devote virtually all their time studying Ephesus, Philippians–the letters of Paul–to the exclusion of almost everything else. They seldom read anything in Matthew or John. They don’t recognize the validity of the Lord’s Prayer (It’s vain Catholic repetition), and they never read whole paragraphs of any Scripture, focusing instead on short phrases or even single words.

MANY of them, perhaps even a majority, are former Catholics. They consider themselves fundamentalists. I’m not sure, but I think they are re-baptized when they get ‘saved’. They now have their own version of the King James, which they refer to as the Recovery Version, and are terrifically tight-knit socially. It’s as much a social group as a church. Tough bunch.

The thing is, these are NOT just ignorant yahoos. I know of doctors, CPAs, computer professionals, and other highly educated and intelligent (and really decent) people in this outfit. They are just these really intelligent and decent people who have made themselves blind and deaf to the Catholic Church.

 

[Fidelis]

Thanks for all the info. That helps me immensely.

May I ask how you became so familiar with these groups?

 

[Irish_Melkite]

Tallow:

Watchman Nee was a Chinese man “saved” by Baptist missionaries in China sometime in the 30s. He founded a church there and moved to Taiwan after the revolution,

Fidelis,

Nee never moved to Taiwan. He died in prison in Mainland China in 1972. It was Lee who took the movement to Taiwan. Lee died in 1997.

There is no “head honcho”, as they place great emphasis on the concept of “local churches” and have no denominational structure beyond the local level. Living Stream Ministry is a publishing house, not the name of their faith. They, in fact, reject any denominational label.

Although I usually dislike using Wikipedia as a reference point, it actually has a fairly good piece on the local church movement .

To read some of Nee’s writing, see Watchman Nee

To read some of Lee’s writing, see Witness Lee

Many years,

Neil

 

[Fidelis]

Irish Melkite:

Fidelis,

Nee never moved to Taiwan. He died in prison in Mainland China in 1972. It was Lee who took the movement to Taiwan. Lee died in 1997.

There is no “head honcho”, as they place great emphasis on the concept of “local churches” and have no denominational structure beyond the local level. Living Stream Ministry is a publishing house, not the name of their faith. They, in fact, reject any denominational label.

Although I usually dislike using Wikipedia as a reference point, it actually has a fairly good piece on the local church movement .

To read some of Nee’s writing, see Watchman Nee

To read some of Lee’s writing, see Witness Lee

Many years,

Neil

Thanks for the info, Neil.

 

[InigoMontoya]

If I may ask, what is your interest in Watchman Nee and the movement he inspired?

 

[Tallow]

Fidelis:

Thanks for all the info. That helps me immensely.

May I ask how you became so familiar with these groups?

Sure, I have a family member in that church, and I used to work with another member. I’ve attended some of their services, but was very put off by numerous statements like, “Thank God I’m no longer a Catholic!” I made it clear that I had no problems whatever with being Catholic and had no intention of converting, but it didn’t prompt any of them to stop being offensive.

I’m ashamed and disappointed to say that I didn’t do anything effective to evangelize them, though their errors were numerous and obvious. I just got terribly tongue-tied.

Incidently, a couple of further thoughts on them. Watchman Nee, the original founder of the church, is quite a good spiritual writer in many ways, and was not, as far as I can tell, the originator of the anti-Catholic strain. That’s more the responsibility, I think, of his disciple, Lee.

Also, and this is quite amusing at times, all the members employ a kind of fractured Chinese syntax when they speak, particularly when they “witness”. Many of these folks can roundly condemn 'in one breath “vain Catholic repetition” like the Rosary, and in the next express themselves in extraordinarily rigid formulaic phrases, even pumping their fists in the air in very precisely executed movements and holding their fingers and thumbs in a manner which is not quite a fist. The gesture is impossible to describe and absolutely universal among members.

They will not use the Lord’s Prayer, but they will very ritualistically repeat phrases from the writings of Witness Lee and others in a repetitive, prayer-like fashion.

 

[Tallow]

Irish Melkite:

Fidelis,

Nee never moved to Taiwan. He died in prison in Mainland China in 1972. It was Lee who took the movement to Taiwan. Lee died in 1997.

Neil

Yes, I had forgotten about Nee’s death in prison.

 

[InigoMontoya]

Tallow:

Incidently, a couple of further thoughts on them. Watchman Nee, the original founder of the church, is quite a good spiritual writer in many ways, and was not, as far as I can tell, the originator of the anti-Catholic strain. That’s more the responsibility, I think, of his disciple, Lee.

I’m going to agree with you. He does have some incredible writings, however people should be cautious with them if they’re not well versed in understanding their own theology and the Bible.

Nee grew up with multiple Christian influences, Baptist, Catholic, Plymouth Brethren, etc. In fact he was in contact with the Plymouth Brethren so much asking questions, ordering books, that they invited him all the way to England. Eventually though he was banished by them for disagreeing on some areas of theology. Only T-Austin Sparks stood by his side.

 

[Fidelis]

InigoMontoya:

If I may ask, what is your interest in Watchman Nee and the movement he inspired?

I’m working on an article about him from a Catholic apologetics standpoint. As far as I know there isn’t one out there, but I know quite a few Catholics that have been sucked into “Local Churches.” I’m hoping other potential victims might benefit from the information.

 

[Irish_Melkite]

Fidelis,

Nee is actually popping up as a topic around the web these days, for some reason, and I wrote about him on another forum within the past few days, so thought I’d share with you what I posted there:

In defense of Nee, he was incarcerated for 2 decades in a Chinese Communist prison. Some of his peculiar religious thinking was unquestionably developed and influenced by the 20 years he spent in harsh captivity for his faith.

Watchman Nee was born in China in 1903. He was one of nine children and a third-generation Christian on at least one side of his family, with a grandfather who was an ordained pastor.

His mother was politically involved with the nationalistic movements of Sun Yat-sen prior to becoming active in evangelism. Nee himself converted at 16 and was active as an itinerant preacher through his early years, specializing in “church planting”. He would begin with a small group of people meeting in a house, seeking a building when the group became to large to continue as a house church.

He traveled to England in the 1930s where he was hosted by the “Exclusive Brethren”, a branch of the Plymouth Brethren, but had a falling out with them because of he refused to separate himself from other Christians, a tenet of the Exclusivists. After his return to China, during WWII he essentially maintained a neutrality, refusing to pray for the victory of either the Chinese or Japanese, because he felt that those of God should not involve themselves with the worldliness of government.

He went into business with a family member during this period, in a pharmaceutical firm, because his “Little Flock” (the unofficial name of his church) was impoverished and needed funds for survival. Some church leaders were adamantly opposed to his taking on a secular role though and he was banned from preaching for a few years as a result.

In the late 40s, he regained his leadership role and focused again on church planting and training other evangelists. He devoted some time to preaching in their large church in Shanghai, but spent the bulk of his efforts on founding hundreds of lay-led house churches throughout the country that were focused on Bible study.

Nee didn’t fare well in the years after the revolution began and fled to Hong Kong, but returned to the mainland in 1952 against family advice. In 1956, he was charged by the regime with a variety of offenses, including espionage and demoralization of the worker class, due to his preaching on “last days”. He was sentenced to 20 years in prison and remained there for the full term. He died a physically broken man. Contrary to what I posted earlier, he died not in prison but in his home province, just days after release from incarceration.

He has been described as zealous to the point of fanatical. From everything that I’ve read, he lived a self-imposed life of abject poverty, despite the fact that one of the charges levied against him by the Communists was embezzlement of church funds. He was extremely idealistic and took issue with western missioners on several counts, alleging that they were weighted down with tradition, rather than focusing on the Bible. He also was convinced that clergy-laity distinctions were unbiblical and had the effect of precluding individual Christians from doing the work of God.

The “local church” concept has obviously been carried to an extreme by his spiritual descendents, although he definitely was enamored of the concept. It is important to recognize that the “house church” has unquestionably been the salvation of many religions, including Catholicism, in China under the Communists.

To what extent, Nee foresaw the importance of this form of worship to religious survival under the Communists isn’t clear. There are really only a couple of extant works that were actually written by him; the remainder - including the most doctrinally extreme writings attributed to him - were produced by others from notes taken during speeches and sermons by Nee and are, thus, suspect as to the extent of interpretation and editorializing by the note-takers.

All said, one has to recognize that Nee, as much as one disagrees with his doctrine, was committed to his faith in Christ and, for all practical purposes, gave his life for it. We should indeed pray that the Lord saw fit to give his soul rest in a place of light and love, where there is neither sorrow nor sighing, neither pain nor suffering, but only life everlasting.

Many years,

Neil

 

[walter.gonzalez]

InigoMontoya:

I’m going to agree with you. He does have some incredible writings, however people should be cautious with them if they’re not well versed in understanding their own theology and the Bible.

Nee grew up with multiple Christian influences, Baptist, Catholic, Plymouth Brethren, etc. In fact he was in contact with the Plymouth Brethren so much asking questions, ordering books, that they invited him all the way to England. Eventually though he was banished by them for disagreeing on some areas of theology. Only T-Austin Sparks stood by his side.

I’ve read some of his writings and found them very inspirational. I see what you mean about the danger of adopting erroneous beliefs. This man had the power to influece others.

 

[InigoMontoya]

walter.gonzalez:

I’ve read some of his writings and found them very inspirational. I see what you mean about the danger of adopting erroneous beliefs. This man had the power to influece others.

And lets be thankful that he did! How many people came to Christ through the evangelism that was spread by him? Even if we perceive there to be errors in their interpretations and theology, that doesn’t exclude that countless people gave their life to Christ and embraced Him as their Lord and Savior! We really need to look at the times and events which shaped this man’s, as well as the other major Chinese evangelists (or all Chinese Christians) before condeming them (Not that you or anyone here has).

Neil/Irish-Melkite, that was a very well good introductory review of him. I don’t know of anything off hand that is off in that.

Fidelis, I’d very much be interested in seeing your paper upon completion; if you don’t mind.

 

[GKB_Protasius]

I think there is a book by a Chinese anthropologist (who converted to a form of Protestant Christianity, I can’t remember what kind exactly during his research) called “Chinese Christians in America”. It’s very good, and while I don’t think it talks about Nee specifically, it does talk about things that may be related.

I almost dated a girl who was a member of this movement. She seemed to distance herself from Nee but believed that they were the true church. I think she indicated that she believed in rebaptism of people who joined their church who had been baptized as infants.

Good luck!
peace in Christ,
Frank

 

[Kenneth]

Please understand that Watchman Nee and Witness Lee are ofdifferent personalities. They are of different identities and teachings. Although Lee was a student of Nee, Lee’s views are not accepted in general by the majority of Protestant churches. In fact, a splinter group of Lee which formed “Christian Gospel Center” had reasons of leaving. They say that Lee (not Nee) believed that there is no salvation outside their church. Lee’s views have becomes modalistic and radical, that’s why even a Philippine Protestant Research Ministry made criticisms against Lee in their website thebereans.net/arm-wlee.shtml Watchman Nee is well-respected by the Protestant community in general. In fact, The head of the “Chinese Protestant Patriotic Movement” (TSPY) was a student of Watchman Nee. Lee’s church seems to worship Nee and Lee himself, as evidenced by LSM publications.

 

[Fidelis]

InigoMontoya:

Fidelis, I’d very much be interested in seeing your paper upon completion; if you don’t mind.

I’d be happy to share. The toughest part is always checking sources for accuracy, but I don’t plan on an exhauastive treatment, just an informational article on a popular level.

Thanks everyone for the info.

 

[MaggieOH]

In the past I have done an Internet search on Watchman Nee’s Local Church. This group gets treatment from the Watchman Expositor as a cult, and from memory it also gets some treatment from Rick Ross’s excellent web site.

It might help to have a look at sites that Google throws up when looking at the subject spiritual abuse.

MaggieOH

 

[Fidelis]

Thanks, MaggieOH.

 

[Contarini]

I’d encourage you to deal with Nee fairly and not just look at possibly anti-Catholic elements of his thought. I grew up in a non-denominational “house church” context–we were from a Wesleyan background but greatly admired Nee (not Lee or the “Local Church” movement, which we regarded as aberrant). Some of Nee’s ideas helped break down some of my Protestant biases. For instance, Nee taught that baptism was salvific (though he distinguished “salvation” from “regeneration,” which he did not think was accomplished by baptism). This was shocking to me when I first encountered it. Even the “local church” ecclesiology is in fact faithful to the teaching of the early Church. The bizarre part is the claim by the followers of Lee/Nee to be the true local church. But many of the Protestant accusations of “culthood” stem from Protestant denominationalism. Evangelical Protestants can’t stand to be reminded that their happy acceptance of multiple competing churches in one locality is aberrant by Biblical and patristic standards. They get very upset whenever anyone calls them on this, and they label the offending party a “cult,” since in their terminology any group calling itself the true church is a “cult.” (The more ecumenical evangelicals cut Catholics and Orthodox some slack on this, but it’s probably the single biggest reason why evangelicals dislike Catholicism, with the possible exception of soteriology.) Again, I’m not denying that the way the “Local Church” people make this claim is downright silly. But they’re trying to think about what it means to be the Church in a way that makes most evangelicals very nervous. For that, I applaud them heartily.

In Christ,

Edwin