Watchtower and their arguments on the trinity

  • Thread starter Thread starter Evanescence
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
E

Evanescence

Guest
There is this mag titled “should you believe in the trinity” that was published by the watchtower.

watchtower.org/library/ti/index.htm

Can anyone think of rebuttles to their claims.
The watchtower also refers to the catholic religion alot about this subject.

What do you think of the magazine?

Evanescence
 
The most self-righteous and ignorant idiots on this planet are members of the JW crowd besides from hilarious “theology” has anyone else noticed other than me the stale looking characters they use for illustration in print. LOL LOL LOL
 
Hi E:

Their booklet Should You Believe in the Trinity is filled with misquotes and misrepresentations of the teachings of the early Church Fathers and also of many modern Christian scholars. The scholarship in the booklet is very bad and an argument could be made that the author of the booklet engaged in academic dishonesty.

If you want more info. feel free to email me at jschwehm@catholicxjw.com

Jeff Schwehm
www.catholicxjw.com
 
Take a look at this thread:

watchtower.org/library/ti/article_04.htm

It is full of complete misquotes and quotes taken out of context to the point that it is almost a complete lie. But, considering it is trying to disprove truth itself, it really can only at best be totallly misleading. A simple look at history and what the sources they quote actually say will reveal the truth though. Not to mention that the bible completey proves the reality of the trinity. They use their own bible though that has been altered to fit their beliefs, so this is part of the problem.
 
40.png
Evanescence:
There is this mag titled “should you believe in the trinity” that was published by the watchtower.

watchtower.org/library/ti/index.htm

Can anyone think of rebuttles to their claims.
Click to expand...
From the article:

The Witnesses: Masters of Misquotation

By Mark Brumley

…Similarly, the Witnesses misconstrue the New Catholic Encyclopedia’s article on the Trinity. In their pamphlet Should You Believe in the Trinity? they quote the following passage as evidence the early Christians didn’t believe in the Trinity:

“The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the fourth century. . . . Among the apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”

Should this be taken to mean the early Christians and the apostolic Fathers didn’t believe in the Trinity? Hardly. This quotation indicates only that the apostolic Fathers didn’t use the precise formula “one God in three Persons,” not that none of them believed that the one divine being was Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

R. L. Richard, the author of the article, distinguishes between a strict, dogmatic formulation of the Trinity, which took centuries of reflection upon Scripture to achieve, and an elemental Trinitarianism which was present in the earliest Christian writings.

He writes: “If it is clear on the one side that the dogma of the Trinity in the stricter sense of the word was a late arrival, product of three centuries’ reflection and debate, it is just as clear on the opposite side that confession of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit–and hence an elemental Trinitarianism–went back to the period of Christian origins” (New Catholic Encyclopedia, XIV, 300).
 
**Ignatius of Antioch **

For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit. [A.D. 110]

**Theophilus of Antioch **

“It is the attribute of God, of the most high and almighty and of the living God, not only to be everywhere, but also to see and hear all; for he can in no way be contained in a place. . . . The three days before the luminaries were created are types of the Trinity: God, his Word, and his Wisdom” (Ad Autolycus 2:15 [A.D. 181]).

**Tertullian **

"We do indeed believe that there is only one God, but we believe that under this dispensation, or, as we say, oikonomia, there is also a Son of this one only God, his Word, who proceeded from him and through whom all things were made and without whom nothing was made. . . .

"We believe he was sent down by the Father, in accord with his own promise, the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, the Sanctifier of the faith of those who believe in the Father and the Son, and in the Holy Spirit. . . . this rule of faith has been present since the beginning of the Gospel, before even the earlier heretics . . .

"And at the same time the mystery of the oikonomia is safeguarded, for the unity is distributed in a Trinity. Placed in order, the Three are the Father, Son, and Spirit.

"They are three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in substance, but in form; not in power, but in kind; of one substance, however, and one condition and one power, because he is one God of whom degrees and forms and kinds are taken into account in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

"Keep always in mind the rule of faith which I profess and by which I bear witness that the Father and the Son and the Spirit are inseparable from each other, and then you will understand what is meant by it. Observe now that I say the Father is other [distinct], the Son is other, and the Spirit is other.

This statement is wrongly understood by every uneducated or perversely disposed individual, as if it meant diversity and implied by that diversity a separation of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" (Against Praxeas 2:1-4; 9:1 [A.D. 213]).

**Origen **

"For we do not hold that which the heretics imagine: that some part of the substance of God was converted into the Son, or that the Son was procreated by the Father from non-existent substances, that is, from a substance outside himself, so that there were a time when he [the Son] did not exist.

"No, rejecting every suggestion of corporeality, we hold that the Word and the Wisdom was begotten out of the invisible and incorporeal God, without anything corporal being acted upon . . . the expression which we employ, however–that there was never a time when he did not exist–is to be taken with a certain allowance. For these very words ‘when’ and ‘never’ are terms of temporal significance, while whatever is said of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, is to be understood as transcending all time, all ages, and all eternity.

For it is the Trinity alone which exceeds every sense in which not only temporal but even eternal may be understood. It is all other things, indeed, which are outside the Trinity, which are to be measured by time and ages" (Fundamental Doctrines 4:4:1 [A.D. 220]).

**Pope Dionysius **

"Next, then, I may properly turn to those who divide and cut apart and destroy the most sacred proclamation of the Church of God, making of it [the Trinity], as it were, three powers, distinct substances, and three godheads. . . . [Some heretics] proclaim that there are in some way three gods, when they divide the sacred unity into three substances foreign to each other and completely separate. . . .

Therefore, the divine Trinity must be gathered up and brought together in one, a summit, as it were, I mean the omnipotent God of the universe. . . . It is blasphemy, then, and not a common one but the worst, to say that the Son is in any way a handiwork [creature]. . . . But if the Son came into being [was created], there was a time when these attributes did not exist; and, consequently, there was a time when God was without them, which is utterly absurd. . . .

Neither, then, may we divide into three godheads the wonderful and divine unity . . . Rather, we must believe in God, the Father almighty; and in Christ Jesus, his Son; and in the Holy Spirit; and that the Word is united to the God of the Universe. ‘For,’ he says, ‘The Father and I are one,’ and ‘I am in the Father, and the Father in me’" (Epistle to Dionysius of Alexandria 1-3 [A.D. 262]).**
 
Many Bible critics charge that the New World Translation is a rewriting of the Bible to conform to Jehovah’s Witnesses’ doctrines. Dr. Robert Countess, a respected New Testament scholar, with a B.A., an M.A., and a Ph.D. in religion majoring in New Testament text, voices the concerns of most biblical scholars about the New World Translation:

“[the New World Translation] has been sharply unsuccessful in keeping doctrinal considerations from influencing the actual translation… It must be viewed as a radically biased piece of work. At some points it is actually dishonest. At others it is neither modern nor scholarly. And interwoven throughout its fabric is inconsistent application of its own principles.” Dr. Bruce M. Metzger, professor of New Testament language at Princeton University, says the New World Translation is “a frightful mistranslation… erroneous… pernicious… reprehensible.”

Dr. Julius Mantey, one of the most repected Greek scholars in the world, says this in response to the fact that the Watchtower Society had misquoted him in approval of the New World Translation when in fact he does not approve:

“I have never read any New Testament so badly translated as The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of The Greek Scriptures… it is a distortion of the New Testament. The translators used what J.B. Rotherham had translated in 1893, in modern speech, and changed the readings in scores of passages to state what Jehovah’s Witnesses believe and teach. That is a distortion not a translation.” Wikipedia online encyclopedia
 
**CCC (Catechism of the Catholic Church)

206 In revealing his mysterious name, YHWH (“I AM HE WHO IS”, “I AM WHO AM” or “I AM WHO I AM”), God says who he is and by what name he is to be called. This divine name is mysterious just as God is mystery. It is at once a name revealed and something like the refusal of a name, and hence it better expresses God as what he is - infinitely above everything that we can understand or say: he is the “hidden God”, his name is ineffable, and he is the God who makes himself close to men.[11]

209 Out of respect for the holiness of God, the people of Israel do not pronounce his name. In the reading of Sacred Scripture, the revealed name (YHWH) is replaced by the divine title “LORD” (in Hebrew Adonai, in Greek Kyrios). It is under this title that the divinity of Jesus will be acclaimed: “Jesus is LORD.” “A God merciful and gracious”

211 The divine name, “I Am” or “He Is”, expresses God’s faithfulness: despite the faithlessness of men’s sin and the punishment it deserves, he keeps “steadfast love for thousands”.[21] By going so far as to give up his own Son for us, God reveals that he is “rich in mercy”.[22] By giving his life to free us from sin, Jesus reveals that he himself bears the divine name: “When you have lifted up the Son of man, then you will realize that “I AM”.”[23]

**I AM

**13. “But,” said Moses to God, “when I go to the Israelites and say to them, The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' if they ask me, What is his name?’ what am I to tell them?”
  1. God replied, “I am who am.” Then he added, “This is what you shall tell the Israelites: I AM sent me to you.”
    Exo 3:13-15
  2. Jesus, knowing everything that was going to happen to him, went out and said to them, “Whom are you looking for?”
  3. They answered him, “Jesus the Nazorean.” He said to them, “I AM.” Judas his betrayer was also with them.
  4. When he said to them, “I AM,” they turned away and fell to the ground.*
  5. So he again asked them, “Whom are you looking for?” They said, “Jesus the Nazorean.”
  6. Jesus answered, “I told you that I AM. So if you are looking for me, let these men go.”
    John 18:4-8
  7. Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM.”
    John 8:58
  8. So Jesus said [to them], "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will realize that I AM, and that I do nothing on my own, but I say only what the Father taught me.
    John 8:28
  9. When he said to them, “I AM,” they turned away and fell to the ground.
    John 18:6
**
 
It was this very pamphlet that triggered a great reaction in me. I will forever be greatful for that. I started reading every early writer I could find and I know now what lies were written by Watchtower. Because we are to put a charitable light on things I chose to believe that they are very very very poor researchers rather than deliberatly printing such misinformation.
The claim that belief in such a mystery is contrary to reason ask them to explain creation out of nothing.

st julie
 
st julie:
It was this very pamphlet that triggered a great reaction in me. I will forever be greatful for that. I started reading every early writer I could finds…
Click to expand...
St Julie…I also, credit the JW’s with strengthening my knowledge of the Church, and consequetly, increasing my faith in it. So…they are useful in this respect.
 
The Jehovahs once got a hold of my cousins and she started throwing all these bible quotes at me. That they so freely misuse. Well me having this simple faith through the Holy Spirit found rebuttles to these constantly misused quotes. Most I have forgot but that one was the easiest.

In Genesis God says “LET US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE”. Not I will make man in my image.
 
They also love to quote Proverbs where it says about wisdom referring to Jesus.

If Wisdom was “created” as their interpretation suggests, had there been a time when God didn’t have Wisdom? Let their foolish thinking continue to be foolish.

Pio
 
When I read their stuff I always notice how they love to uses such sources like encyclopedia britannica and other big name encyclopedias which they quote all the time from to “prove” something historical. But the funny thing is there is so much in that same encyclopedia that they would reject and avoid because it would discredit their position.
 
BenRosaQuote:
Originally Posted by st julie
***It was this very pamphlet that triggered a great reaction in me. I will forever be greatful for that. I started reading every early writer I could finds… ***

St Julie…I also, credit the JW’s with strengthening my knowledge of the Church, and consequetly, increasing my faith in it. So…they are useful in this respect.

There have been a number of Jehovah’s Witnesses, also, who have said that this booklet was a turning point for them. Some already had some familiarity with the writings of the Early Church Fathers, and this booklet was an eye opener in realizing how the WT Society develops it’s arguments.

Actually, this booklet is almost a good “case study” in how the WT leadership does it. There are a number of refutations on the internet; just punching in the title of the book brings up many. Some of the best ones show the “selective quotations” in their context, providing the surrounding text in the original source material.

What is sad is that many individual Witnesses have been led to think that after studying this kind of polemic material, they have actually studied the subject being discussed. Better it would be to look at the reasoning, from the ground up, that historic, orthodox Christianity uses to develop it’s doctrines, than to merely read argumentative material against them.
 
I once used this argument to refute some Jehovah’s Witnesses that came to my door one day. They asserted that Jesus is not God, nor is He equal to the Father. However, it’s clear from the book of Revelation that this idea is erroneous. From their own New World Translation, it says the following:

8 “I am the Al´pha and the O·me´ga,” says Jehovah God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.”

16 And he had in his right hand seven stars, and out of his mouth a sharp, long two-edged sword was protruding, and his countenance was as the sun when it shines in its power. 17 And when I saw him, I fell as dead at his feet. And he laid his right hand upon me and said: “Do not be fearful. I am the First and the Last, 18 and the living one; and I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of Ha´des.

12 “‘Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is. 13 I am the Al´pha and the O·me´ga, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.

It can’t get much simpler than this. From the very first chapter, God is the “Alpha and the Omega”. Similarly, Christ identifies himself as the “First and the Last”, also refering to himself as the one who “became dead”. Later in the last book, chapter 22, the second passage shows that Christ is “coming quickly” to repay all men “as his work is”. Finally, Christ refers to HIMSELF as “the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” Simply stated:
  • Jehovah God is “the Alpha and the Omega”, “the One who was and who is and is still to come, the Almighty”. Revelation 1:8
  • Jesus is “the First and the Last” who “became dead”. Revelation 1:17
  • Jesus is “coming quickly”, to repay to each “as his work is”, the “Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” Revelation 22:12-13
  • THEREFORE, JESUS IS GOD.
I think I’ll finish with what St. Thomas acclaimed when he saw Our Lord Jesus Christ gloriously risen from the dead:

“MY LORD AND MY GOD!”
 
Had some JW’s coming to my door - brought their little magazines everytime. I was polite and noticed they were not real happy when I utilized my own bible and they stopped coming by when I began teaching them about Jesus (whom they do not believe is God) and stood up about the gifts of the spirit (including healing - they appearantly believe healing is only “spiritual healing” and cannot be physical).HMMMMMM guess they were afraid they would hear something contrary to their list of beliefs. One of them was a young girl and I can only hope a seed was planted that someone will be able to water and she will learn the truth … - Jacqueline
 
Jacqueline:

If you wish, you can add a prayer intention for the conversion of your JW friends to our prayer chain at the following email address:

prayerchain@catholicxjw.com

If you would like to join our prayer chain and pray for the conversion of JWs all over the world just email me at jschwehm@catholicxjw.com

I send out the prayer requests about once a week.

Also, you can visit our website too at www.catholicxjw.com

Thanks for taking the time to share the truth with the JWs. I am a convert from the JWs to the Catholic Church and if caring Christians had not taken the time to share the true Jesus with me, I would still be lost.

God’s blessings to you,
Jeff Schwehm
President
Fellowship of Catholic Ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses
www.catholicxjw.com
 
I saw these articles on the web, there was a really nice one someone posted a while back but I cant find it.
Here and Here are the two I found.

Basically as people have already said they take stuff waaaaaay out of context.
 
I’m having problems with a Jehovah’s witness on another website (a video game website, of all places!) It started when this 14-year-old JV copied word for word a JV pamphlet . I decided to post a comment about it, and the whole thing has turned into a war between four people: me, A roman Catholic high school seminarian, a Pentecostal (who didn’t know about the trinity, so I don’t think he knows much about his religion), an agnostic-type who thinks that only your motives matter and that nobody knows what the bible is saying anyway, and the Jehovah’s witness.

Anyway, we’ve been going back and forth about the trinity, holidays, etc, and he keeps posting watchtower stuff (he just copied and pasted it) and by the time I write something to refute him, he has already posted something else that refutes bible verses like “the father and I are one,” etc. ( I think it’s the same one Catholics4life gave us the link to!) :eek:

His latest attack is outrageous. He said that during WWII the Catholic bishops had “war prayers” for the german nazi soldiers. :eek:
Can anyone help me to steer him towards the true faith?

The guy’s last name is Garcia, and he said that he had cousins that used to be “hardcore” Catholics that now attend bible studies with him. ( ibet his parents might be ex-Catholics :eek: ) JV’s are in my neigborhood, but everyone around here (whether Catholic or not) knows about the Jv stance
on the trinity and knows how to refute them. The Jv’s haven’t been doing so well in my town.

I’m really hoping that I can help him realize how he is part of a faith that was founded on questionable merits to begin with, not to mention faulty theology!

I need help! Can someone aid me here?
 
Andy K.:
I’m having problems with a Jehovah’s witness on another website (a video game website, of all places!) It started when this 14-year-old JV copied word for word a JV pamphlet . I decided to post a comment about it, and the whole thing has turned into a war between four people: me, A roman Catholic high school seminarian, a Pentecostal (who didn’t know about the trinity, so I don’t think he knows much about his religion), an agnostic-type who thinks that only your motives matter and that nobody knows what the bible is saying anyway, and the Jehovah’s witness.

Anyway, we’ve been going back and forth about the trinity, holidays, etc, and he keeps posting watchtower stuff (he just copied and pasted it) and by the time I write something to refute him, he has already posted something else that refutes bible verses like “the father and I are one,” etc. ( I think it’s the same one Catholics4life gave us the link to!) :eek:

His latest attack is outrageous. He said that during WWII the Catholic bishops had “war prayers” for the german nazi soldiers. :eek:
Can anyone help me to steer him towards the true faith?

The guy’s last name is Garcia, and he said that he had cousins that used to be “hardcore” Catholics that now attend bible studies with him. ( ibet his parents might be ex-Catholics :eek: ) JV’s are in my neigborhood, but everyone around here (whether Catholic or not) knows about the Jv stance
on the trinity and knows how to refute them. The Jv’s haven’t been doing so well in my town.

I’m really hoping that I can help him realize how he is part of a faith that was founded on questionable merits to begin with, not to mention faulty theology!

I need help! Can someone aid me here?
Click to expand...
Sure list the website or any questions you have either here or start a new thread.

Also check out catholicxjw.com and contact the man in charge he will be able to help a lot. He is also on these forums, but you should probably email him from his www.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top