Water Baptism NOT Necessary for Salvation!

[believers]

First I would like to comment that it seems mighty presumptuous of you to make a prounouncement about what we believe, where we lack faith or what we “must” do. You don’t know anything abou us, or what our church teaches.

Having said that, I realize that you are ignorant about what the Church teaches, and that is regrettable,but can be corrected.

1 Cor 6:11
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. "

When we are washed through baptism, we became justified in the name of the Lord. It is His sacrificial death on the cross that justifies. Baptism is the manner in which we enter into this death.

Heb 10:19-22

19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the sanctuary by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the new and living way which he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water."

Baptism enables us to approach with confidence into the sanctuary by the blood of Jesus.

Rom 5:1-5
5:1 Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Through him we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in our hope of sharing the glory of God. 3 More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not disappoint us, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit which has been given to us."

The HS is given to us in baptism, just as Jesus demonstrated when He gave us an example by His own baptism. He has poured into our hearts His perfect love. Being born again by water and the spirit happens together, at the same time, during baptism.

Jesus said you must be born of water and the spirit. UNLESS you believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ and repent, you’ve only completed the ‘born of water’ part of that verse.

 

[believers]

Very well put. The car isn’t repaired by tools “instead of” by the mechanic. The car is repaired BY the mechanic THROUGH tools. We are cleansed of sin BY Jesus’ blood THROUGH baptism and repentance, not by baptism “instead of” Jesus’ blood. To say that baptism has any power apart from Jesus’ blood is nonsense. Baptism is a tool by which Jesus’ blood cleans us. “Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name,” Acts 22:16.

It’s not by water baptism. Here how to be covered by the blood of Jesus… Faith in Jesus’ Gospel, repent, & love God with all your heart and one another.

 

[believers]

100% faith in the finished work of Jesus is the whole point of [water] baptism.

False.

It is Christ’s finished work which empowers baptism with the ability to wash away sins.

It doesn’t empower water baptism. You do realize that Jesus NEVER water baptized.

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:

[Water] Baptism itself is just a method by which the finished work of Jesus is applied to us.

That belief negates God’s Grace. You are telling people that the only way to receive the gift of God is to go thru the Catholic church and by a priest in water baptism. That’s not what His Word says.

Jhn 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Eph 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Baptism isn’t some separate cure apart from Jesus’ finished work on the cross. Baptism derives 100% of its effect from Jesus’ finished work on the cross.

You’ve added work to the Grace of God by thinking a man must apply it or distribute it. God doesn’t need your religion or your religious stuff to bless people with His grace. Then it wouldn’t be grace at all. And definitely not a gift. It’s just arrogance to think your church can do this.

 

[Gamera]

Jesus said you must be born of water and the spirit. UNLESS you believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ and repent, you’ve only completed the ‘born of water’ part of that verse.

Baptism contitutes being born of water and spirit, not just water. “Repent and be baptized, every one of you … and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit,” ACts 2:38.

Under your view babies, who are incapable of belief, cannot enter heaven. You keep claiming you believe in some exception for “age of accountability” but never once have you quoted any Bible verse supporting it. You admit that Romans Chapter 5 says all humanity is separated from God by original sin. Therefore, your doctrine allows no method for babies to enter heaven.

 

[Gamera]

It’s not by water baptism. Here how to be covered by the blood of Jesus… Faith in Jesus’ Gospel, repent, & love God with all your heart and one another.

What chapter and verse says “You are covered by Jesus blood when you have faith in Jesus’ gospel, repent, and love God with all your heart and one another?” No verse says exactly that. Those are clips from various verses that YOU have strung together to state your man-made formula. You omit the verses mentioning baptism because they don’t match your worldview.

 

[Gamera]

It doesn’t empower water baptism. You do realize that Jesus NEVER water baptized.

Jesus also never told anybody to write the Bible.

Of course I realize that Jesus did not baptize anyone. Scripture says so. “…though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,” John 4:2.

What Jesus did was to give us the sacrament of baptism and command His apostles to baptize all nations.

 

[Gamera]

That belief negates God’s Grace. You are telling people that the only way to receive the gift of God is to go thru the Catholic church and by a priest in water baptism. That’s not what His Word says.

See, you don’t even know what Catholics believe. Baptism does NOT need to be done by a priest, nor by a practicing Catholic. The Catholic Church presumes ALL Trinitarian baptisms to be valid, whether performed by a Catholic priest or by a revival tent preacher. Nobody ever said it must be a baptism by a priest, nor a baptism in a Catholic church building. Please don’t criticise our beliefs if you don’t even know what we believe.

 

[Gamera]

You’ve added work to the Grace of God by thinking a man must apply it or distribute it. God doesn’t need your religion or your religious stuff to bless people with His grace. Then it wouldn’t be grace at all. And definitely not a gift. It’s just arrogance to think your church can do this.

“Arrogance” is thinking that you know better than the Church founded by Jesus, when you obviously haven’t even read the entire Bible cover to cover.

Jesus most certainly did create the Church to be His mystical body through which His grace is dispensed. “God made Christ the head to which the whole Church is joined, so that the Church is his body,” Eph 1:22. Calling the Church Christ’s body is not just poetry or metaphor. The Church is not just a social club for like-minded people. It is our way of sharing life in Christ. It is a profound theological mystery through which we share in the life of Christ as a people, as a body, not as individuals isolated from one another. We fell as one whole race; we were redeemed as one whole race. Our supernatural life flows from the Church.

 

[Gamera]

I didn’t avoid your question. You just don’t understand the power of the resurrection of Jesus. Jesus sits on the throne of judgement. He said come to me as little children. What do you think children are?

Believers, you are the one who claimed that Scripture established an “age of accountability.” When you claim that something appears in Scripture, it’s reasonable that other people ask you to cite chapter and verse. Asking you to cite the verse doesn’t mean we “don’t believe in the power of the resurrection of Jesus,” — in fact, it means we are safeguarded the body of God’s divine revelation by not letting people claim the Bible says things which it really doesn’t say.

We don’t know of any Scripture verse which establishes an “age of accountability.” Please either cite the verse or admit that there is no such verse.

 

[believers]

Baptism contitutes being born of water and spirit, not just water. “Repent and be baptized, every one of you … and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit,” ACts 2:38.

Under your view babies, who are incapable of belief, cannot enter heaven. You keep claiming you believe in some exception for “age of accountability” but never once have you quoted any Bible verse supporting it. You admit that Romans Chapter 5 says all humanity is separated from God by original sin. Therefore, your doctrine allows no method for babies to enter heaven.

You do realize that Jesus is the judge? Jesus said that we adults must turn to him like little children in faith. It is plainly obvious that Jesus regards little children higher than adults.

Mat 18:3
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 18:4
Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Luk 18:16
But Jesus called them [unto him], and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

 

[Gamera]

You do realize that Jesus is the judge? Jesus said that we adults must turn to him like little children in faith. It is plainly obvious that Jesus regards little children higher than adults.

Mat 18:3
And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 18:4
Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Luk 18:16
But Jesus called them [unto him], and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Yes, adults should have the faith of little children. Agreed (and isn’t it nice when we do agree?)

Children, though, inherit original sin. So how are they to be saved, in your view?

 

[believers]

See, you don’t even know what Catholics believe. Baptism does NOT need to be done by a priest, nor by a practicing Catholic. The Catholic Church presumes ALL Trinitarian baptisms to be valid, whether performed by a Catholic priest or by a revival tent preacher. Nobody ever said it must be a baptism by a priest, nor a baptism in a Catholic church building. Please don’t criticise our beliefs if you don’t even know what we believe.

Let’s get this straight. I was a cradle Catholic and remained Catholic for 36 years and come from a long line of Catholics. I even attended CCD as a child. I also grew up with Catholics in a state divided into parishes. Please don’t tell me I don’t know Catholicism.

 

[Gamera]

That belief negates God’s Grace. You are telling people that the only way to receive the gift of God is to go thru the Catholic church and by a priest in water baptism. That’s not what His Word says.

I failed to mention this above … Catholics are not alone in believing that infants should be baptized. John Calvin wrote fiercely in favor of infant baptism in his “Institutes of Christian Religion.” Have you read Calvin’s arguments? You can find them easily online. Obviously Calvin’s arguments had nothing to do with Catholic “arrogance” as you call it, but with basic Protestant theology.

 

[japhy]

I didn’t avoid your question. You just don’t understand the power of the resurrection of Jesus. Jesus sits on the throne of judgement. He said come to me as little children. What do you think children are?

I “don’t understand the power of the resurrection of Jesus”? I disagree.

How about you answer your own question, and mine too? You believe in an “age of reason” or “age of accountability”. Why? Whence do you draw this belief?

 

[believers]

Yes, adults should have the faith of little children. Agreed (and isn’t it nice when we do agree?)

Children, though, inherit original sin. So how are they to be saved, in your view?

There’s power in His resurrection. He defeated sin on the cross. He is now the judge. He didn’t refuse children on earth and He certainly won’t refuse them into heaven… such is the Kingdom of God.

 

[Gamera]

Let’s get this straight. I was a cradle Catholic and remained Catholic for 36 years and come from a long line of Catholics. I even attended CCD as a child. I also grew up with Catholics in a state divided into parishes. Please don’t tell me I don’t know Catholicism.

Obviously not, if you think that Catholics believe baptism must be performed by a priest. CCD never taught you that, did it? That certainly isn’t a Catholic belief. Didn’t your CCD education include the fact that Catholics consider all Trinitarian baptisms to be valid, including those performed by Protestant churches? That’s what partially unites us with all Christians of every denomination. "For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ,” Gal. 3:27

 

[believers]

Obviously not, if you think that Catholics believe baptism must be performed by a priest. CCD never taught you that, did it? That certainly isn’t a Catholic belief. Didn’t your CCD education include the fact that Catholics consider all Trinitarian baptisms to be valid, including those performed by Protestant churches? That’s what partially unites us with all Christians of every denomination. "For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ,” Gal. 3:27

That’s not the point. Priest=man. Get it?

 

[Gamera]

There’s power in His resurrection. He defeated sin on the cross. He is now the judge. He didn’t refuse children on earth and He certainly won’t refuse them into heaven… such is the Kingdom of God.

Yet according to you, “ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,” Rom 3:23 means every last human being is stained by personal sin. And we’ve already established that we all are stained by original sin. You cannot quote any Scripture supporting an “age of accountability” and cannot claim that babies have faith. So how can babies be cleansed of sin? Nothing unclean can enter heaven (Rev. 21:27) so how can babies enter heaven?

The answer for Catholics is baptism, which confers saving grace. In your worldview there is no means by which original sin can be removed from babies, since babies cannot have faith.

 

[believers]

Yet according to you, “ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,” Rom 3:23 means every last human being is stained by personal sin. And we’ve already established that we all are stained by original sin. You cannot quote any Scripture supporting an “age of accountability” and cannot claim that babies have faith. So how can babies be cleansed of original sin and enter heaven?

You’re still not getting this. Do you understand that Jesus is the Judge. He is the one that determines who gets into Heaven. As for children, He demonstrated on earth that children are allowed to come to Him. “such is the Kingdom of God”. Jesus will allow them in. He told us that if we want to enter heaven, we have to be like them.

Jhn 10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

[Gamera]

That’s not the point. Priest=man. Get it?

“Only Christ is the true priest, the others being only his ministers,” CCC 1545. Jesus Christ is the only true priest, according to the Catholic Church. Human beings adminsiter His priesthood but do nothing of their own power. It is Jesus Christ who washes away our sins in baptism, not the mere human priest.