Water cannot be transformed into good wine

[greylorn]

My point is that if science is forever impotent to find the answer to why we exist, then why worry about the exact science behind changing water into wine? Since it’s physically impossible to change water into wine, then either Jesus was a con artist, or it was a miracle. Science is forever impotent to prove either. The existence of the universe either has no reason for it’s existence, or it was a miracle. Science is forever impotent to prove either. It’s logical to believe that a creatorless universe SHOULD have a scientific explanation for it’s existence, but it never will, since absolute nothing can’t naturally evolve into the first something without a supernatural event. So science is wrong “somewhere” in this argument due to the paradox of the creation of a creatorless existence. Since logic dictates that some supernatural event had to happen, then “miracles” are still on the table of “possible” since science is wrong “somewhere.”

Although you’ve not thought things fully through, there is some merit to your assertions.

You know that I accept the requirement for a Creator.

However, there is no more logical merit to the assertion that nothing magically evolved into a universe than that an undefinable, limitless entity magically appeared and created a universe from the same, ubiquitous, nothing,

Religion and cosmology seem to have finally converged, after centuries of struggle, upon a common agreement that the universe came from nothing. It is unfortunate that all that work resulted in nothing. What a stupid waste of what passes for human intelligence.

It seems that before we can progress, the authorities of science need to agree with the authorities of religions, that with respect to the fundamental ideas about the beginnings of things, all existing ideas are dreadfully mistaken.

P.S. Your last sentence would have nailed it, perfectly, had you omitted the unnecessary word, “supernatural”.

 

[tonyrey]

It also chemically impossible to manufacture a **person **

“non-material” is the key word!

However, life experience has taught me that virtually all of what humans regard as purpose is merely an assortment of commonly shared programs running through their brains, and that most of what passes in us for “love” is just brain-induced horniness plus the need to find someone else to “complete” our own shallow personality and trivial skill set.

I admit that every now and then I get a twinge of some inner feeling of something vaguely reminiscent of those shy moments of briefly shared human affection, but these most often occur when I am looking through a telescope, or microscope, or reading a book (Michael Behe) or technical report on some awesome, mysterious aspect of creation.

That is all we need to know…

 

[greylorn]

You are correct in saying that it is impossible to transform water into wine within the laws of nature. However, a miracle is, as I understand it, God breaking the laws of nature. If God, existing outside our material universe, outside of time, invented the rules of the game, he can break those rules.

Whatta rebel.

Putting your beliefs in the place of others’ statements is a tacky thing to do.

I never said or even implied that it was impossible to transform water into wine. I merely described a few of the steps that would be needed, and pointed out their inconvenient thermonuclear consequences.

In a subsequent post, I’ve proposed a simpler theory which would produce the same result, but requiring simpler powers that have no thermonuclear consequences.

You might want to apply some critical thinking to your notion that the creator of the universe exists outside the spacetime constraints of his creation. When you finish that project, ask yourself how it is that you know, for certain, that God created all of the game’s rules.

 

[greylorn]

There is no need to aplogize. To my best knowledge I never had any “strange”, unexplained experience, which cries out for an explanation. I would like to live much longer, that is for sure. I read once a very smart observation: “people do not want to live forever, they just don’t want to die”. The idea of “eternal existence” is horrifying for me.

And don’t read any Freudian slip into my misspeling

It seemed worth a shot. I won’t even touch your misspeling of “misspelling,” even if I got that backwards.

 

[greylorn]

Here is another point regarding the OP “re: Wate cannot be transformed into good wine.”

Well, without water you’d not have any wine - good or bad.

Wine is comprised of about 90% water.

For any type of alcohol you first need plenty of water!!! (No “matter” where that H20 comes from!)

Have you had your I.Q. checked lately? It could be getting dangerously low.

 

[inocente]

The ludicrous comparison of a person with a mp3 player merely demonstrates the inadequacy of your hypothesis…

Thank you kindly bro, allow me to return the compliment about your hypothesis . But you’re far too generous calling it my idea when most if not all neuroscientists also say a person is purely material, just as an mp3 player is purely material.

 

[inocente]

No, because I was not stupid 20 years ago and had been engaged in the applications of computer technology to physics for 30 years before then. Just because you are ignorant of the difference between chemistry and nuclear physics does not imply that everyone else is, unless there is new evidence that ignorance can be transmitted like swine flu.

No, because I was not stupid when I wrote core components of an mp3 decoder or when engaged in software engineering for years before then. Just because you somehow thought I was posting to you and leaped at the opportunity for a personal attack does not imply that anyone else would, unless there is new evidence that ignorance can be transmitted like swine flu.

 

[LilyM]

It seemed worth a shot. I won’t even touch your misspeling of “misspelling,” even if I got that backwards.

Don’t get me started on ‘aplogize’

I heartily apologize, dear friend Spock, for any offense caused by my earlier comments. I simply meant to point out that the fact that you’ve not come across anything that you recognize as evidence re God’s existence hardly means that there is no evidence of it.

Surely you would agree that it is possible that you’ve come across real evidence and wrongly overlooked it or dismissed it? To assert otherwise would be to claim infallible discernment in such things … a very, dare I say it … Godlike quality

 

[You]

Putting your beliefs in the place of others’ statements is a tacky thing to do.

I never said or even implied that it was impossible to transform water into wine. I merely described a few of the steps that would be needed, and pointed out their inconvenient thermonuclear consequences.

In a subsequent post, I’ve proposed a simpler theory which would produce the same result, but requiring simpler powers that have no thermonuclear consequences.

You might want to apply some critical thinking to your notion that the creator of the universe exists outside the spacetime constraints of his creation. When you finish that project, ask yourself how it is that you know, for certain, that God created all of the game’s rules.

If you are talking about God God then His definition is One who created everything and yet who was not Himself created. Any being less than that is not God God.

Turning water into wine by humans would, if it were possible practically, involve, undoubtably, very large releases of energy, which would cook the wine, vaporize the alcohol and also, I imagine, the rest of the city surrounding it.

But God God maintains, sustains, at every moment His created atoms in their existence. That is what a God God does, after all. And He must do this, as He is outside the material order, by an act of His will. So that by an act of His will He can create Matter, sustain matter, or transmogrify matter, or even destroy matter - and that is probably the part where He destroys the energy released when changing water to wine before it harms anything.

I have not got multiple years of software wrangling experience and I don’t make jingle tones for ipods or anything else - I just wanted to make that clear to everyone reading.

 

[LemonAndLime]

Well Spock, you what else is “all over the place around here”? You.

For someone who claims to be an atheist you spend an incredible amount of time on a Catholic forum discussing the God that you don’t believe exists. Moreover…

Speaking of calculations, according to your CAF profile you currently have an average posting rating of 2.32 per day. You have been a member on CAF for just over 2.5 years, and at the time I am typing this you have made 2,149 posts, which means an average of 859.6 posts per year. I shall now assign an average time frame of fifteen minutes for each post (and this includes the time involved reading other people’s material prior to responding as well as the time for previewing your own posts before submitting). That means you spend 214.9 hours per year on CAF alone (and goodness knows how many other Christian forums you participate on).

I personally do not believe in good luck charms, although many other people do. But I have spent exactly zero minutes debating the validity of good luck charms on the internet or elsewhere. So the nature of your obsession with Catholicism escapes me, except to consider the idea commonly paraphrased from Shakespeare, “Methinks thou dost protest too much”.

It is not my intention to sidetrack this thread (although I think this discussion has pretty much run its course). So I am just putting this out there as “food for thought” and to point out that the Catholic parish in your area is probably starting up its R.C.I.A. series around this time.

I think that this post is very offensive. A knife coated in silk is still a knife. Spock’s reasons for being on this forum and his motive and time spent on this website have nothing to do with you, and your attack on him only reflects on yourself.

 

[Spock]

I hope it would be the opening riffs from Dark Side of the Moon.

That would be a possibility, but I would prefer the “Hello, hello, hello, is there anybody in there?” from “The wall”.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

In order for water to be changed into wine, carbon atoms must be created. Water is made of oxygen and hydrogen— H[sub]2[/sub]O. Ethanol, an essential ingredient in all booze requires carbon. Its formula is C[sub]2[/sub]H[sub]6[/sub]O. But wine is more than a mix of alcohol and water— it includes complex tannins, esters, and unidentified exotic hydrocarbons, A fine wine will contain more than 1000 different chemicals, all sensitive to temperature and pressure. As any pretentious snob knows, fine wines will be destroyed by excessive temperature.

It is chemically impossible to manufacture ethanol from water because water has no carbon. However, it is atomically possible. Three water molecules could supply the necessary atoms. If two Oxygen atoms (each with 6 protons and electrons) were stripped of a pair of protons and electrons, they would become two Carbon atoms (4 protons and electrons). Unfortunately the extra parts do not disappear into la-la land, but will probably end up as a pair of Helium atoms, plus the excess binding energy which held the original Oxygen atoms together.

That excess binding energy is described by the simple equation, E=mc[sup]2[/sup].

Much of this excess energy will be released as ordinary heat. It turns out that the splitting of Oxygen into Carbon and Helium will have a similar effect as the splitting of Uranium-235 or Plutonium into other stuff. This will cause a sudden and violent release of nuclear energy, commonly referred to as nuclear fission, as what happened in Hiroshima and Nagasaki from the nuclear reduction of only a few pounds of material.

A 10-gallon cask of water, enough to finish off a good party if it was transformed into wine, would weigh about 83 pounds. I’m too far away from my last atomic physics class to do the calculations, but given that a good wine needs at least 10% ethanol, converting 10% of a 10 gallon (83 pound) keg requires the nuclear fission of about 8.3 pounds of matter, roughly the amount in the Nagasaki bomb,

The heat would have surely ruined the wine.

…Please tell me that this is a joke.

 

[EricFilmer]

I think that this post is very offensive. A knife coated in silk is still a knife. Spock’s reasons for being on this forum and his motive and time spent on this website have nothing to do with you, and your attack on him only reflects on yourself.

“Offensive”? “Knife”? “Attack”?

I disagree. Clearly define what you mean by an offensive post and explain how it is applicable to anything I said in my remarks to Spock. I expect to see you use actual quotations from my posts.

 

[Spock]

I heartily apologize, dear friend Spock, for any offense caused by my earlier comments. I simply meant to point out that the fact that you’ve not come across anything that you recognize as evidence re God’s existence hardly means that there is no evidence of it.

Surely you would agree that it is possible that you’ve come across real evidence and wrongly overlooked it or dismissed it? To assert otherwise would be to claim infallible discernment in such things … a very, dare I say it … Godlike quality

There is no need to apologize, since there was no harm done. I have seen assertions that there is evidence for God’s existence, but I did not find any one them compelling. No, there would be no “godlike” quality to say that I am certain that I did not misunderstand or overlooked a valid evidence. Here is a tongue-in-cheek summary of “all” the purported “proofs”: 666 proofs for God’s existence

 

[EricFilmer]

Well, that is nice, but I would strongly advice not to give up your day gig for seeking an employment as a prophet…

…But, if I would ever want to have a special ring tone, it would be Pink Floyd (14 channels of sh*t on the TV to choose from. )

But it could well be that I do have prophetic powers. Maybe “I’ve got second sight, and amazing powers of observation.” Of course, I don’t actually think this about myself, I just thought one good Pink Floyd lyric quote deserved another (and from the same song too).

Anyway, the OP has stated that I am getting this thread discussion sidetracked (and I agree with that assessment) and Lemon & Lime has stated that I am being offensive (which I disagree with, but you have my apologies if my posts came across as such) so I will thank you for sharing your insights with me and let the thread move on in its proper direction.

 

[Spock]

But it could well be that I do have prophetic powers. Maybe “I’ve got second sight, and amazing powers of observation.” Of course, I don’t actually think this about myself, I just thought one good Pink Floyd lyric quote deserved another (and from the same song too).

Triple cheers for Pink Floyd.

Anyway, the OP has stated that I am getting this thread discussion sidetracked (and I agree with that assessment) and Lemon & Lime has stated that I am being offensive (which I disagree with, but you have my apologies if my posts came across as such) so I will thank you for sharing your insights with me and let the thread move on in its proper direction.

Fortunately my skin is pretty thick, and I do not take offense easily. So don’t worry about it. I don’t think that you intended to be offensive, and that is all that matters. Even if someone’s words look like as an intentional offense, I like to give the benefit of doubt, and only after some repetitions will start to ignore that person. By the way, that is one of the reasons why I post “too many times”. I was brought up to be polite, and I consider it impolite not to acknowledge a personally directed post. However, I am working on this deficiency.

 

[EricFilmer]

Eric,
How do you feel about keeping this thread more or less on track? A few personal posts help keep a thread engaging, and I often employ them because they are fun, but IMO your preoccupation with Spock is getting obsessive, and needs to be taken to PM.

Thank you for your consideration.

You have not only my consideration but my apologies as well for going off-topic. As I stated in post #16, I did not intend for my remarks to be anything other than “food for thought” and should have left it at that (and probably should not to have even brought it up).

I think that this post is very offensive. A knife coated in silk is still a knife. Spock’s reasons for being on this forum and his motive and time spent on this website have nothing to do with you, and your attack on him only reflects on yourself.

“Offensive”? “Knife”? “Attack”? I would ask you to clearly explain how anything I said to Spock warrants such descriptions, but I think it is more important to honor greylorn’s request to keep this thread on track. In any event, it was not my intention to be offensive and I have now apologized to Spock if I came across as such.

Triple cheers for Pink Floyd.

Absolutely!

 

[Abba]

That would be a possibility, but I would prefer the “Hello, hello, hello, is there anybody in there?” from “The wall”.

There is somebody there and he has been calling you. Be silent and have courage to at least stand still for a few minutes and listen to his whispers and identify that longing you are experiencing in your soul which only he can satisfy because it is for him that you are longing and it is his calling. He is not on the other side of a wall, he is with you, Spock, loving and guiding you. You wrote that you use to believe but then grew out of it. You may have left him like the prodigal son, but, he has been waiting for you and upon your return will offer a big celebration. I hope to share the joy.

Is it not for him to answer you but for you to respond to his call. A good answer is : HERE I AM, LORD.

youtube.com/watch?v=A4Vjz_pXpD8&feature=channel_page

Send “Here I Am Lord” Ringtone
I, the Lord of sea and sky,
I have heard my people cry.
All who dwell in dark and sin,
My hand will save.
I, who made the stars of night,
I will make their darkness bright.
Who will bear my light to them?
Whom shall I send?
Lyrics from: lyricsmode.com/lyrics/t/the_vandals/here_i_am_lord.html ]
Here I am, Lord.
Is it I, Lord?
I have heard you calling in the night.
I will go, Lord, if you lead me.
I will hold your people in my heart.

I, the Lord of snow and rain,
I have borne my people’s pain.
I have wept for love of them.
They turn away.
I will break their hearts of stone,
Give them hearts for love alone.
I will speak my words to them.
Whom shall I send?

(Refrain)

I, the Lord of wind and flame,
I will send the poor and lame.
I will set a feast for them.
My hand will save.
Finest bread I will provide,
'Til their hearts be satisfied.
I will give my life to them.
Whom shall I send?

(Refrain)

---

Hey, Spock, this is one of my favorite Psalms:

Psalm 139

1O lord, thou hast searched me, and known me.

2Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.

3Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.

4For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.

5Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.

6Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.

7Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

8If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

9If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

10Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

11If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.

12Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

13For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother’s womb.

14I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

15My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

16Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

17How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!

18If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.

19Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.

20For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.

21Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?

22I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.

23Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:

24And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

Jeremiah 23:24:
24Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.

Matthew 18:20 - “20For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.”

May the Grace of Our Lord Jesus Christ be with you,

Abba

 

[LemonAndLime]

“Offensive”? “Knife”? “Attack”? I would ask you to clearly explain how anything I said to Spock warrants such descriptions, but I think it is more important to honor greylorn’s request to keep this thread on track. In any event, it was not my intention to be offensive and I have now apologized to Spock if I came across as such.

Well, you clearly implied he didn’t belong on this forum, and that he had some kind of obsession/complex/denial thing going on which was the motive for him being on here. That in itself is offensive.

A passing remark might be bad enough. But a long post in which you attempt to figure out how many hours a year he spends on the site, along with it being unprovoked. The knife in silk is a metaphor. It was quite obviously aimed to be a personal attack on Spock, but you tried to dress it up a little.

I had to comment because it shocked me. Glad that Spock accepted your apology and all that, but if the post was directed towards me rather than Spock I would have been upset.

 

[LemonAndLime]

That IS strange.
It also shows an ignorance of the Scripture being discussed
John 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse:*** but thou hast kept the good wine until now.***

Ok. I’m “ignorant” of Scripture, and you’re ignorant of my attempt at a joke. Fair’s fair.