Water Dowsing

[Wirraway]

the plumber does not need a license to use a snake or roto rooter, either, it is accepted that if he is doing his job, he uses the tools he needs. yeah it might be a fraud of someone was trying to sell you a dowsing tool making all kinds of wild claims, but the guy digging my well is entitled, on my dime, to dig where he thinks best, that’s why I hired him.

don’t be looking for new age under every bush, you’ll get paranoid

you can set your money on fire, its still a free country. or spend it on a two bit huckster selling magic door to door. its just error to support magic as if it were real.

 

[puzzleannie]

even if it was a fraud, that does not make it new age or sinful use of supernatural powers, which is OP’s question in case you have forgotten

 

[mercygate]

it is commonly used in the part of the country where I grew up by professionals in that type of business, plumbing, wells, septic etc., and is not regarded as having any supernatural basis, and is not charged for beyond reasonable charges for the underlying plumbing type service, so is not used to defraud

News flash: not every natural phenomenon has been yet proven scientifically or has a scientific explanation for why it works. X-rays and similar uses of radiation phenomena were called frauds before Roentgen demonstrated their use, causes and effects scientifically.

Me too. As recently as the '70s. Nobody talked about “spirits” or anything supernatural. And yes: the guy found water about 20 feet down.

 

[Wirraway]

I beg your pardon, but you keep trying to draw conclusions based on not what I have said, but rather on what you seem to want me to say. Licensed or unlicensed there are scoundrels everywhere. I know that there are fake dowsers out there. I also know that there are real dowsers out there.

Magic? By your definition all of Christ’s miracles are magic. And please don’t put words in my mouth. I am not comparing dowsers to Christ. I am saying that it is a phenomena that science doesn’t fully understand yet.

are you saying dowsers work miracles?

if I wanted to use Christian miracles as an example of what dowsing might be, I’d have said so plainly. I chose magick because the purported practice of magic is not acceptable to the Church, and its a bad mistake to involve yourself in it.

there’s nothing to understand, its not some unknown science. tested in ways that foil the fraud, it doesn’t work.

 

[Wirraway]

Me too. As recently as the '70s. Nobody talked about “spirits” or anything supernatural. And yes: the guy found water about 20 feet down.

here’s an aquifer map of the U.S., a standard tool no dowser should leave home without.

 

[foundthelight]

Are you saying dowsers work miracles?

I told you not to put words in my mouth. I said that science has not yet found our how it works.

if I wanted to use Christian miracles as an example of what dowsing might be, I’d have said so plainly. I chose magick because the purported practice of magic is not acceptable to the Church, and its a bad mistake to involve yourself in it.

No, I said that by your definition Christ’s miracles are magic. I never said that dowsers are working miracles.

there’s nothing to understand, its not some unknown science. tested in ways that foil the fraud, it doesn’t work.

Fine. If you say so.

 

[foundthelight]

I would like to apologize to everyone for taking this thread off topic. I may be wrong as to dowsing. Perhaps that is why I stopped the practice 34 years ago.

From Newadvent .org excerpted from this Rock;

newadvent.org/library/almanac_thisrock93.htm

My priest, who is normally orthodox, recently returned from Ireland and was excited about using something called a divining rod. He had two sticks, one in each hand, and when he would pray they would twist in his hands and cross over each other. Does the Church permit this?
No. This practice is known as dowsing, water-witching, and using a divining rod. It is commonly used to find water, gold, oil, or lost objects. There are three principal ways in which it is done. One way involves using a forked stick which is grasped by the two forks, usually with the hands facing inward and downward. Another way is by using two separate sticks or rods (sometimes made out of coat-hangars). A third way is by using a pendulum.
Dowsing is a form of divination, as is obvious from the fact one is using a divining rod. Since divination is an occult practice forbidden by the Church, extreme caution must be used when dealing with any practice that resembles it.
The idea of saying a prayer over the divining rods before or while they are being used might or might not render the practice innocuous, depending on what else was being done, such as whether one was trying to gain information by using the divining rods. If one is trying to get supernatural information by the use of the rods, then it is definitely an occult practice that is forbidden by the Church.
Even if one is not using the rods to conduct divination, the practice of associating them with anything supernatural (such as prayers to God) makes the practice too similar to divination to be safely presented to the faithful. It has the appearance of superstition and of the superstitious use of occult practices (much as the religion of Santeria takes African god-spirits and gives them the names of Christian saints, overlaying a pagan practice with a Christian veneer). Dowsing therefore should not be taught to the faithful.

 

[PoliSciProf]

Dowsing is harmless and it doesn’t work. Check out this link. straightdope.com/columns/read/159/does-dowsing-for-water-really-work

 

[thistle]

I would like to apologize to everyone for taking this thread off topic. I may be wrong as to dowsing. Perhaps that is why I stopped the practice 34 years ago.

From Newadvent .org excerpted from this Rock;

Different time zone so only now reading the posts.
Am I correct then that this article from the Catholic Encyclopedia does say that Catholics are forbidden from engaging in or employing water diviners because it falls under CCC 2116 which says ALL forms of divination are to be rejected.

 

[foundthelight]

Different time zone so only now reading the posts.
Am I correct then that this article from the Catholic Encyclopedia does say that Catholics are forbidden from engaging in or employing water diviners because it falls under CCC 2116 which says ALL forms of divination are to be rejected.

It is not a dogmatic statement, however it carries a great weight. So I would say yes. BTW It is an excerpt from “This Rock” via Newadvent.

 

[thistle]

It is not a dogmatic statement, however it carries a great weight. So I would say yes. BTW It is an excerpt from “This Rock” via Newadvent.

Thanks. I had a quick peek at the article on divination in the Catholic Encyclopedia but its long so I’ll read it properly later.
However, the opening part is pretty clear and that it doesn’t only mean telling the future or controlling people.

QUOTE

Divination, the seeking after knowledge of future or hidden things by inadequate means. The means being inadequate they must, therefore, be supplemented by some power which is represented all through history as coming from gods or evil spirits. Hence the word divination has a sinister signification. As prophecy is the lawful knowledge of the future, divination, its superstitious counterpart, is the unlawful. As magic aims to do, divination aims to know.

UNQUOTE

 

[Oscarthecat]

What is brewed in a pot, includes animal parts, makes steam, and has been handed down from generation to generation for its mysterious healing powers?

Chicken Soup.

It isn’t magical, but traditionally, people have believed that it can help to treat certain illnesses. As it turns out, certain beneficial compounds are released in the process of cooking chicken and certain vegetables at a constant heat that help the body to fight off common viruses and bacteria.

Lots of things are considered “magic” until we figure out how or if they work.

Once the research is concluded, we can decide if the practice is valid and scientifically based, or if the practice is a baseless tradition grounded in coincidental patterns or superstition.

In the mean time- I think that what matters for those practices which have not yet been verified or disproven, is whether the practitioner or the observers believe they are engaged in the occult.

If the water dowser or his clients believe they are doing something magical, then they are guilty of attempting to tame occult powers, and are thus violating the Church’s teachings. Therefore, I’d avoid it just as much as I’d avoid chicken soup made by someone claiming it has magical healing properties.

On the other hand, he and his clients regard water dowsing as something that is a completely natural but as of yet unexplained phenomenon, then it is no different than the use of any other untested technology. That doesn’t mean it actually works, but it is no different than people who believe that magnets, roots, chutes, and herbs have undiscovered healing properties. They might be wrong, but they’re not practicing magic, either.

To be honest, I think that evidence that something like this WORKS would be the best evidence that it is NOT an occult practice.

 

[The_Barbarian]

It’s not magical. It’s just superstition. Every careful test of dowsing has failed to show any ability to find water or anything else.

 

[Wirraway]

…
To be honest, I think that evidence that something like this WORKS would be the best evidence that it is NOT an occult practice.

if it worked. but it doesn’t. if fails every test.

 

[Oscarthecat]

if it worked. but it doesn’t. if fails every test.

I don’t doubt that for a second-

but when I said that positive evidence of something’s effectiveness is a good indicator that it isn’t an occult practice, I didn’t imply that the inverse was also true

So, evidence that some product or service doesn’t work doesn’t indicate that it is involved in the occult…

If that was true, what would we do about most of the products sold on late night infomercials?

So, I guess that based on what people have been saying in this thread-

if a water dowser (or whatever they’re called) shows up in a black robe and a pointy hat, carries around jars labelled with things like “eyes of newt,” “monkey tails,” and “fingernails of a buck-toothed jailkeeper,” and gives you coupons for a two-for-one palm reading session- then you’re probably getting into something you shouldn’t.

But if one shows up in jeans and a t-shirt, tells you he doesn’t believe in any kind of magic or sorcery, does his job without any pretense, and hands you a bill, then you’re probably not participating in an occult practice.

 

[Oscarthecat]

I would like to apologize to everyone for taking this thread off topic. I may be wrong as to dowsing. Perhaps that is why I stopped the practice 34 years ago.

From Newadvent .org excerpted from this Rock;

Here’s an Q/A response from This Rock, vol 16, no.3 2005 that seems to expand on the one you posted.

In the example given in your excerpt, the practice was regarded as divination because it was directly associated with prayer, which gave the impression that the practitioner believed the practice was somehow supernatural.

But as the following excerpt states, dowsing is not inappropriate if the participants and practitioner regard it as the result of ordinary, natural events.

catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0503qq.asp

Q: Is water dowsing an acceptable means of locating water on one’s property?

A: Water dowsing (also known as water divination and water witching) is a method in which the practitioner uses a Y-shaped stick called a divining rod to hunt for underground water or minerals. If there is reason to believe that such a method could be explained naturally, then the method would be acceptable. The National Ground Water Association, though, dismisses the idea of water dowsing as “totally without scientific merit” and recommends instead “the use of proven hydrogeological and geophysical techniques for groundwater reconnaissance when its presence is not easily recognizable by drilling contractors” (www.ngwa.org/ngwainwashington/isswitch.html)).

But if one still believed that there is a natural reason that the method works and wished to pursue the method, despite no scientific proof thus far, then true superstition would not be involved. For more on superstition see the Catechism of the Catholic Church 2111.

 

[Wirraway]

… But if one shows up in jeans and a t-shirt, tells you he doesn’t believe in any kind of magic or sorcery, does his job without any pretense, and hands you a bill, then you’re probably not participating in an occult practice.

can’t quite agree.

its not the appearance of the practitioner of fraud (or divination) that makes it shady, its the actual practice that’s fraudulent (or divinatory).

the twiching sticks and the pendulum, that’s been explained numerous times as anything but magical power to find water (it has something to do with slight involutary muscle movement).

claiming something works but not being able to explain what it is when it doesn’t actually work is just delusional.

 

[Oscarthecat]

can’t quite agree.

its not the appearance of the practitioner of fraud (or divination) that makes it shady, its the actual practice that’s fraudulent (or divinatory).

the twiching sticks and the pendulum, that’s been explained numerous times as anything but magical power to find water (it has something to do with slight involutary muscle movement).

claiming something works but not being able to explain what it is when it doesn’t actually work is just delusional.

You’re reading more into my example than was intended. My point was that the belief and intention of the practitioner and the other participants should be considered.

Some things, like ouija boards and tarot cards, are specifically and exclusively designed for occult use because the function of the practice is to either commune with the dead or predict the future. Therefore, the use of these things is always wrong.

But other practices depend on the belief and intention of the practitioner and participants, because the practice itself is not inherently associated with the occult. Some chiropractors consider themselves to be a legitimate part of the medical health industry. Other chiropracters get into weird mysticism and use lots of incense. But regardless of the legitimacy of water dowsers or chiropractors, the only ones guilty of divination are the ones who believe they are practicing divination.

For a better explanation, please read the Q/A excerpt from “This Rock” magazine I quoted a few posts back.

Incidentally, just because something is fraudulent doesn’t make it a form of divination.

1/2 the products advertised on late night informercials make fraudulent claims- but they don’t purport to be magical. Therefore, those who buy those products are guilty of being gullible, but not of associating with sorcerers.

 

[Wirraway]

…

For a better explanation, please read the Q/A excerpt from “This Rock” magazine I quoted a few posts back.

I’ll be sure to read it. but I still don’t entirely agree with you. a practictioner of water witchery must know that he or she is not using accepted principles of hydraulogy to find underground water. surely you’d expect one to know that if a twitchy stick isn’t science or engineering, its supernatural. hence, diviniation by default.

Incidentally, just because something is fraudulent doesn’t make it a form of divination.

I was stating fraud / divination in the alternative.

 

[Oscarthecat]

I’ll be sure to read it. but I still don’t entirely agree with you. a practictioner of water witchery must know that he or she is not using accepted principles of hydraulogy to find underground water. surely you’d expect one to know that if a twitchy stick isn’t science or engineering, its supernatural. hence, diviniation by default.

For the record, I reject all of the above premises that a twitchy stick is either science, engineering, or supernatural. Sometimes a stick is just a stick.

Actually, on second thought…a stick is ALWAYS just a stick.

If someone believes they can find water using a twitchy stick, they are only guilty of divination if they believe that supernatural forces are causing the stick to twitch.

For that matter, if someone wants to follow a twitchy needle in the hope it will lead them north, they are also only guilty of divination if they believe that supernatural forces are directing the needle.