Water for emergency baptisms?

[Dylpickleh8]

I think Saliva has too much stuff that’s not water in it.

 

[runningdude]

Invalid matter is every liquid that is not usually designated true water. Such are oil, saliva, wine, tears, milk, sweat, beer, soup, the juice of fruits, and any mixture containing water which men would no longer call water. When it is doubtful whether a liquid could really be called water, it is not permissible to use it for baptism except in case of absolute necessity when no certainly valid matter can be obtained.

I find it interesting that tears are one of the matters specifically called out - they can wash Christ’s feet, but apparently not our sins!

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I find it interesting that tears are one of the matters specifically called out - they can wash Christ’s feet, but apparently not our sins!

And oil is using in annointings but can not be used for baptism either, your point being?

 

[Zekariya]

I was joking about the use of saliva (though it could be argued to have a higher percentage of water than some ponds and other very murky waters).

Produced in salivary glands, saliva is 98% water, but it contains many important substances, including electrolytes, mucus, antibacterial compounds and various enzymes.

Here is the website that I got mine information from: sciencedaily.com/articles/s/saliva.htm

 

[dans0622]

I am not saying we can baptise with saliva. As an aside I find the idea quite repulsive. As other posters have said saliva is not pure water. However, water from the public water supply is not 100% pure water. It contains other substances. It is interesting though what one should do if someone is at the point of death and there is no water to hand. I wonder if there’s ever been a dubium to the Holy See on this matter.

Hi Matthew,

I don’t know of any “dubium” that was submitted to the Holy See, although I suppose there has been at least one over the years. The way it is sometimes explained is that if, “in the common estimation of persons,” a substance is water, then it is water. So, yes, what comes out of the faucet has a lot of other stuff in it but everyone would still say that it is truly water. Saliva? No. Soda? No. Carbonated water? Yes. Stale pond water? Yes. Etc.

If there is no water for an emergency baptism, then we pray and make our desires known to God. Fortunately, He is not bound by the Sacraments.

Dan

 

[runningdude]

And oil is using in annointings but can not be used for baptism either, your point being?

Nothing . I just thought it was funny…

 

[Matthew_Holford]

Hi Matthew,

I don’t know of any “dubium” that was submitted to the Holy See, although I suppose there has been at least one over the years. The way it is sometimes explained is that if, “in the common estimation of persons,” a substance is water, then it is water. So, yes, what comes out of the faucet has a lot of other stuff in it but everyone would still say that it is truly water. Saliva? No. Soda? No. Carbonated water? Yes. Stale pond water? Yes. Etc.

If there is no water for an emergency baptism, then we pray and make our desires known to God. Fortunately, He is not bound by the Sacraments.

Dan

Hi Dan

I know tap water’s fine. It’s pure for environmental health purposes. As a scientist we’d only say water was ‘pure’ if it literally was. I would like to ask about your stale pond water. I read, but can’t remember off hand where, that the water has to be clean and fresh.

Matt

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Hi Dan

I know tap water’s fine. It’s pure for environmental health purposes. As a scientist we’d only say water was ‘pure’ if it literally was. I would like to ask about your stale pond water. I read, but can’t remember off hand where, that the water has to be clean and fresh.

Matt

See my post from the Catholic Encyclopedia. It mentions this. Pond water is ok as we call it water.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

Hi Dan

I know tap water’s fine. It’s pure for environmental health purposes. As a scientist we’d only say water was ‘pure’ if it literally was. I would like to ask about your stale pond water. I read, but can’t remember off hand where, that the water has to be clean and fresh.

Matt

See my post from the Catholic Encyclopedia. It mentions this. Pond water is ok as we call it water.

I’ve found the information that I couldn’t recall. It’s in the current edition of the Roman Ritual on Christian Initiation and Baptism No. 18, which states: “The water used in baptism should be true water and, both for the sake of authentic sacramental symbolism and for hygienic reasons, should be pure and clean.” Would this directive in a contemporary liturgical book supersede that which is in an encyclopaedia published approximately 100 years ago?

 

[dans0622]

Hi Dan

I know tap water’s fine. It’s pure for environmental health purposes. As a scientist we’d only say water was ‘pure’ if it literally was. I would like to ask about your stale pond water. I read, but can’t remember off hand where, that the water has to be clean and fresh.

Matt

Hello again,

I was going to point you to that Introduction.

The latter “should be” in that statement is not a requirement for validity. Frankly, the former use of “should be” regarding the “true water” is misleading. It must be true water (cf. c. 849). Yes, the praenotanda of a liturgical book/rite is liturgical law and would have precedence over any encyclopedia (canonically speaking).

Now that I think about it, if the water had to be scientifically “pure,” that would make it harder to find “valid water” and would lead to a lot of doubt about the validity of baptisms.

Dan

 

[Cristiano]

I have a hypothetical (Yes, hypotheticals are absurd and all they do is open worm cans and distract from the point) relating to emergency baptism. In an emergency where one did not have access to water, would using one’s own spit be valid to baptize with? It is basically water. Anyone know?

No you are not allowed to use saliva. I had your same question about a couple of years ago here on CAF and someone produced enough documentation to show that real water is necessary. I will post the tread if I find it before you do.

Update:

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=195628

however this is not where I saw the documentation. I need to dig further.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

Now that I think about it, if the water had to be scientifically “pure,” that would make it harder to find “valid water” and would lead to a lot of doubt about the validity of baptisms.

Hi

I don’t know if it would be more difficult to acquire; it would certainly be more expensive.

Matt