Water into GRAPEJUICE?!?!?!?

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The stone jars held about 800 bottles of wine. The Bible records that someone said - ‘Hey!..everyone else serves the worst wine last when we can’t tell the difference too well, but you served the best wine first and even better wine last. Cheers!’
 
Although it took me some time to come to accept the Church’s teachings, once I had, one of the few hardest things to really accept was that the consumption of alcohol as a beverage (even Southern Baptists allow it for other reasons, such as for cooking, etc.) was not as immoral as I had always believed it to be. I have almost always been a teetotaler, never took a drink during college or even law school, or since. The explanations given, which are put forth as authoritative by so many teetotalers, are varied and no doubt creative. The water-into-wine anecdote is so formidable that most Protestants really believe that if they can knock that one down, they’re home free. So the argument that I heard, and which I think might still have SOME credibility, is this. I say this not to endorse, but to simply mention that position:

As was noted earlier, the Greek word is oinos. And according to some Greek-fluent pastors I know, oinos apparently fails to indicate the fermented/unfermented nature of the grape drink. That is, it could well be wine, but it could well be grape juice. These people then look to the verses, which, again as noted below, indicates that the wedding guests were “well drunk,” and conclude that it could not have been wine, because Jesus would never do anything to foster drunkenness.

Not saying I agree, just noting what those folks say. This might have some credibility, but even if so, it just begs the question, “to what degree is drunkenness wrong (mortal/venial/not a sin) and what, precisely, do we define as drunkenness in order to assess the sinful/non-sinful nature of the act?” So, in a valiant attempt to foster more discussion WITHOUT hijacking this thread, what say y’all as to these “begged questions”?
 
Jesus and His disciples drank wine. Unfermented wine is grape juice! I could never undsertand this notion of “unfermented wine.”

God Bless,
Michael
 
Drinking and drunkeness are different animals.
Christ said He would be accused of being a drunkard, not of having drunk.

Is there any evidence anywhere in historical records that anyone in the 1st century ever drank grape-juce? I thought fruit juices arrived with refridgerated shelves in supermarkets.
 
Ok, I look at this issue from a different perspective… Non Biblical, scientific proof it could NOT have been grape juice

Fruit juice without fermentation would have been lethal after more than a day or two…

Bacteria says… mmmm… warm… moist… sugar…

ANY juice without fermentation and without refrigeration creates a sees pool of dangerous and deadly bacteria, after a few days… one sip would at a minimum make your bottom become a leaky faucet… Thats if your lucky… May very likely result in death.

Fermentation has a beautiful feature of killing bacteria. therefore, making it drinkable.

There is no way Christ would be talking about grape juice. He would basically be asking his disciples to drink poison.

IF you want to say that the reason they were able to drink it and NOT die is because of a miracle… why is there ZERO evidence of this as a miracle. Everyone would have known it to be bad, and would have noted it as such since it WOULD be a miracle that they didn’t get sick

33AD + Grape Juice = Bacteria Disney World = Sick
33AD + Grape Juice + Fermentation = Bacteria Hell = Safe to drink WINE

In Christ
 
Montgomeryatty said:
As was noted earlier, the Greek word is oinos. And according to some Greek-fluent pastors I know, oinos apparently fails to indicate the fermented/unfermented nature of the grape drink. That is, it could well be wine, but it could well be grape juice. These people then look to the verses, which, again as noted below, indicates that the wedding guests were “well drunk,” and conclude that it could not have been wine, because Jesus would never do anything to foster drunkenness.

Not saying I agree, just noting what those folks say. This might have some credibility, but even if so, it just begs the question, “to what degree is drunkenness wrong (mortal/venial/not a sin) and what, precisely, do we define as drunkenness in order to assess the sinful/non-sinful nature of the act?” So, in a valiant attempt to foster more discussion WITHOUT hijacking this thread, what say y’all as to these “begged questions”?
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I think we need to keep in mind time and place. Up until relatively recently, consumption of alcholic beverages was the norm, not the exception. The rum ration that the British Sailors use to get every day was enough to keep most of us well pickled yet even the top men who climbed to tops of the sails had little problem performing their duties while consuming that ration. The reason is that their bodies built up a tolerance to the stuff. That is just one example, but other examples stretch back thousands of years. Consumption of alcohol was a part of daily life. Further multi day revels were the norms for Jewish Weddings at the time of Jesus. The normal social rules regarding drinking were probably somewhat relaxed since they wouldn’t be working during the feast anyway.

–
Bill
 
For the sake of covering all angles of the argument, how would the wine have been more dangerous than non pasturize milk, or cheese? Some places still sell these products, although it isn’t recommended.

Ut.
 
This notion of unfermented wine in the Bible is an innovation of the 19th century temperance movement. Jesus drank wine, as implied by the following passage.

Luke 7:34

34The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners." ’

You can’t get drunk on grape juice.

God Bless,
Michael
 
Deuteronomy
[23] And before the LORD your God, in the place which he will choose, to make his name dwell there, you shall eat the tithe of your grain,** of your wine, **and of your oil, and the firstlings of your herd and flock; that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always.
[26] and spend the money for whatever you desire, oxen, or sheep, or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves; and you shall eat there before the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.

Ecclesiastes
[26] and spend the money for whatever you desire, oxen, or sheep**, or wine or strong drink, **whatever your appetite craves; and you shall eat there before the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.

Colossians

[16] Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a sabbath.
 
Ok think about it this way, if wine in the bible is non-alcholic, then why are there so many verses about being drunkeness? If the wine was free of alcohol, there wouldnt be this problem.
 
The whole “grape-juice” argument doesn’t even pass the logic test. The Jewish people, even today, are keepers of the Law. Passover today is celebrated the same way it has always been celebrated. Wine is very signifigant in Jewish tradition and culture. In the O.T. it seems to always allude to God’s goodness and abundance. The Jewish people have NEVER and still DO NOT have any issue with consuming alcohol.

If Jesus is the fulfillment of the Law, and the Jews were so messed up, I am fairly certain that Jesus would have made it very clear that the accepted Jewish practice of consuming alcohol was contrary to the will of God. The Passover celebration is no small affair, and is steeped in Jewish gasp “TRADITION”, yet no Biblical account of the Passover celebrated at the Last Supper makes any mention of Jesus changing the traditions of Passover (and changing the traditional wine with grape juice would have surely been notable enough to be recorded in the Gospel accounts - ESPECIALLY the Gospel written to the Jewish audience).
 
Montgomeryatty said:
As was noted earlier, the Greek word is oinos. And according to some Greek-fluent pastors I know, oinos apparently fails to indicate the fermented/unfermented nature of the grape drink. That is, it could well be wine, but it could well be grape juice. These people then look to the verses, which, again as noted below, indicates that the wedding guests were “well drunk,” and conclude that it could not have been wine, because Jesus would never do anything to foster drunkenness.
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My NAB version has “when people have drunk freely”, which may or may not have a different nuance than “well drunk”.

If you’re going to view the “well drunk” people as “plastered”, then yes, the above arguement makes sense, as we are told that wine up to merriment is ok, but beyond that point, a sin.

However, if you’re going to view the “well drunk” people as “quenched their immediate thirst and have consumed all the available wine”, then there is no judgement on their level of sobriety. As in “make sure the horses are well drunk before putting them in the stables”.

Strictly from a physical standpoint- people react to and metabolize alcohol in different ways and at different rates. To assume that they were all drunk seems a far stretch.

I wonder, Bible scholars, if there’s another place in the Bible where the phrase “well drunk” comes up that doesn’t refer to alcohol? Maybe that would help clear up this particular theory.

C
 
tomch said:
Jesus turned the water into grape juice. Then He created the refrigerator. Then He put it all the grape juice in the refrigerator so that it would STAY grape juice. Jesus certainly would have created a way to keep the grape juice from eventually turning into wine, wouldn’t He?

(I think the refrigerator was an A-“manna”) 😉
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Understand something that was implied on this Thread, but I’ll make it clear:
Putting grape juice under refrigeration (actually a cool place no less than about 50degF in ancient times, like a deep well or cavern) will NOT stop corruption or later fermentation of grape juice.
The whole idea of Dr Welch was a PASTUERIZING heat such as would kill the bacteria in the first place without destroying the qualities of the Juice, a precise operation, not a campfire or even an ancient baking oven.
I have tried putting fresh organic grape juice in the refrigerator (44deg F) to preserve it, the stuff I did not use in about 15days was putrid.
Further, grapes that are ripe are already in a fermenting mode. You’d have to use very sour (sugarless), unripe grapes to get any hope of juice that was not in fermentation or “sugaring” mode.

In the end, for one who holds that it’s only symbolic of Christ’s Blood, it really doesn’t matter what “symbol” they use, does it?
Thus the bizarre interpretations & manufactured legends of fresh fruit that was a hundred yrs old. First of all, who in the world could certify the age of a piece of fruit? Really, to believe the Josephus account is incredulous.
Finally, what happened to the bible “only” and “Only” the bible. Suddenly it’s inadequate for judging if grape juice or wine was the actual fluid.
 
In the end, for one who holds that it’s only symbolic of Christ’s Blood, it really doesn’t matter what “symbol” they use, does it?
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I think grape juice in that instance is quite suitable.
 
Right. Interesting article from Biblicalperspectives.com.

For those who think Jesus was drinking grape juice during passover and Canan:
1-do you have any evidence about when the church suddenly decided to use real wine?
2-If all the apostles were tea totlers, you would think that this was an important doctrine for them to make explicit. No? I mean, real wine would have been readily available, and it does constitute “fruit of the vine”. Do they make this explicite anywhere in the bible or traditional source? Something to the effect, “Don’t use fermented wine.”
3-And if the Jews were not drinking real wine, why have special provisions for Nazarites, who make a vow not to drink alcohol? Doesn’t this presume that the rest of the Jews were also drinking alcohol?
4-There are lots of examples in the Bible against getting drunk, i.e. Noah, Lot, etc…, but none against drinking wine in moderation. Proverbs is full of such warnings.
Prov 20:1 Wine is arrogant, strong drink is riotous; none who goes astray for it is wise.
Prov 23:29-35 Who scream? Who shriek? Who have strife? Who have anxiety? Who have wounds for nothing? Who have block eyes? Those who linger long over wine, those who engage in trials of blended wine. Look not on the win when it is red, when it sparkles in the glass. It goes down smoothly; but in the end it bites like a serpet or like a poisonous adder. Your eyes behold strange sights, and your heart utters disordered thoughts; You are like one now lying in the depths of the sea, now sprawled at the top of the mast. 'They struck me, but it pained me not; thy beat me, but I felt it not; When shall I awake to seek wine once again?"
Prov 31:4-7 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, not for kings to drink wine; strong drink is not for princes! Lest in drinking they forget what the law decrees, and wiolate the rights of all who are in need. Give strong drink to one who is perishing, and wine to the sorely depressed; when they drink, they will forget their misery, and think no more of their burdens.
Eccl 2:24 There is nothing better for man than to eat and drink and provide himself with good things by hs labors. Even this, I realised, is from the hand of God. For who can eat or drink apart from him?
 
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