Waterboarding Terrorists- Justified to Save Lives?

[hxcCatholic413]

Do you believe that abortion is justified in order for a woman to avoid the pain of childbirth?

obviously he doesn’t he is pro-life

 

[Newbie2]

Then you need to be more clear.

The OP regards whether waterboarding is justified to save lives.

If you think it is then that’s great.

However, I got the impression that this is not what you think.
If you think waterboarding is not justified to save lies, then you must believe that losing innocent lives is preferable to waterboarding a terrorist.

The OP presents a YES or NO question.

I’ve answered, “I’m not sure” and have been pretty clear about that. It’s also pretty clear that you are backtracking from saying that torture, clear torture, is acceptable under Catholic moral theology. That’s good. You’re learning.

It’s OK to be wrong and change your mind. No shame in that, we’re all here to enhance our knowledge of Catholic theology.

 

[Steel_Pinwheel]

Do you believe that abortion is justified in order for a woman to avoid the pain of childbirth?

The pain of child baring is brought on oneself through deliberation actions that naturally lead to that pain. And, almost no one, not myself, would try to withhold painkillers. So, if you see an analogy between childbirth and torture, then do you support these torture victims being given as much painkillers as they like?

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

The pain of child baring is brought on oneself through deliberation actions that naturally lead to that pain. And, almost no one, not myself, would try to withhold painkillers. So, if you see an analogy between childbirth and torture, then do you support these torture victims being given as much painkillers as they like?

The pain of waterboarding is brought upon oneself when one chooses to join a murderous terrorist organization.

There is a clear analogy.

Life is the top priority. Allowing innocent people to die in order to avoid waterboarding a terrorist is the result of misplaced moral priorities.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I’ve answered, “I’m not sure” and have been pretty clear about that. It’s also pretty clear that you are backtracking from saying that torture, clear torture, is acceptable under Catholic moral theology. That’s good. You’re learning.

It’s OK to be wrong and change your mind. No shame in that, we’re all here to enhance our knowledge of Catholic theology.

You are not sure, you say, yet you claim to be speaking fo the Catholic Church.

You obviously are not. The Catholic Church advocates that security forces take necessary actions against an aggressor in order to protect the innocent.

I haven’t backtracked on anything. Read the OP to refresh your memory.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

obviously he doesn’t he is pro-life

He is pro life unless that life consists of innocent victims of terrorism. In that case he seems to claim that waterboarding is never permissible to protect these innocent victims.

Is this the position you hold?

 

[starshiptrooper]

You don’t see the difference between the infliction of pain and imposing a risk of death verses a bright light?

Shining a bright light in someone’s face is painful. As for the risk of death, I really doubt waterboarding is that risky of a procedure. After all, the object of waterboarding is to obtain information and information cannot be given by dead men.

Why don’t you just say you’re not against torture?

Why should I have to state the obvious?

And, don’t you mean the suspected terrorist? Not all of us have your blind confidence in the guilt of the accused.

Are you implying that the CIA just randomly picks people to waterboard? Only a few people (3?) were waterboarded. Out of the many inmates at Guantanamo, that is a mighty small sample. The logical conclusion is that the CIA knew these people had information and thus should have been waterboarded.

 

[braumeister]

Waterboarding is nothing but torture on a 16th century scale and just because some government agency CLAIMS that it “saved lives” to condone the use, does not make it right.
The Nazis made it legal to torture Jews (before they got around to outright killing them). That did not make it right.
Even though something is termed “legal”, by ANY government, does not make it right.
Compromising one’s ethics and morality to secure one’s “safety” does not make it right.
It is never justifiable to torture our fellow man for any reason.

ditto

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

ditto

Another vote for mass murder.

 

[JustaServant]

My father was a WW2 veteran. His generation saw things overseas that changed them forever, as any war does. My uncle was wounded at the D-Day landing. He rarely spoke about the war and when he did, this VERY large stocky man would cry like a baby. The soldiers who actually experienced war were usually the ones who didn’t view it as some kind of video game. Only armchair warriors who like like to play GI Joe with their bellies bouncing in the woods “enjoy” war.
My parents generation had a proper respect for life. I know if my father and uncle were alive today they would be HORRIFIED at Americans advocating what they defeated in WW2. The kind of tactics that drove the Nazis into historical defeat.
I suppose only those with a proper understanding of history weep at the direction our country is headed in. The fact that we now think it is perfectly okay to torture other human beings is about as low as we can sink. The idea that some can dare to bring religion into it, boggles the mind. Jesus said “you live by the sword, you die by the sword”.
In justifying torture, you are opening up a Pandora’s box that will not be easily closed. Just look at history. Once this kind of behavior is justified, the end result is a violent, facist, society. It then becomes justifiable to torture criminals (which tazing does) and eventually anyone we disagree with politically. We already have “conservative” pundits calling for the death of the Wikileaks fellow.
Open your eyes folks. Get off the emotional parade drummed up by polititians and talking heads on TV. Stop assuming God is on your side. Violence only leads to more violence. Torture leads to more torture. War to suffering. It’s not “fun”.
You live by the sword, you die by the sword.

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

I know if my father and uncle were alive today they would be HORRIFIED at Americans advocating what they defeated in WW2.

For what it’s worth, my grandfather had a similar story, though from the opposite perspective. He was in the German army in WWII, captured as a prisoner of war, and taken to a camp in Maine, I believe. He wrote back to his family that America was a great country because he could think of no other nation in which a prisoner of war would sit and eat meals at the same table as his captors and be treated with such dignity. After the war, he moved to America.

It is perhaps a mercy that he’s been dead for some time. He doesn’t have to think that he was wrong all along–that the country he came to love so much is just another brutal nation among many.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[JustaServant]

Grace & Peace!

For what it’s worth, my grandfather had a similar story, though from the opposite perspective. He was in the German army in WWII, captured as a prisoner of war, and taken to a camp in Maine, I believe. He wrote back to his family that America was a great country because he could think of no other nation in which a prisoner of war would sit and eat meals at the same table as his captors and be treated with such dignity. After the war, he moved to America.

It is perhaps a mercy that he’s been dead for some time. He doesn’t have to think that he was wrong all along–that the country he came to love so much is just another brutal nation among many.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

Beautiful story, thanks.
I think it’s the same for every generation. The soldiers that marched off to the Civil War got a rude awakening. Fifty years later, surviving veterans warned those bright-eyed kids marching off to WW1 that it was not going to be a picnic. People dismiss what is not part of their experience, and don’t heed the warnings of those who have been there. It’s just part of the history books.
WW2 vets are dying in droves, and by the end of this decade there will be very few to warn the next generation of the path they are taking.
We’re not Nazis. Simple as that.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Open your eyes folks. Get off the emotional parade drummed up by polititians and talking heads on TV. Stop assuming God is on your side.

I agree with this statement completely.

Only emotional hysteria would lead a person to assume that mass murder is preferable to waterboarding a terrorist.

 

[Newbie2]

You are not sure, you say, yet you claim to be speaking fo the Catholic Church.

You obviously are not. The Catholic Church advocates that security forces take necessary actions against an aggressor in order to protect the innocent.

I haven’t backtracked on anything. Read the OP to refresh your memory.

Please don’t be so obtuse.

Again, I NEVER made any claim about what the Catholic Church teaches about waterboarding in specifics. What I wrote was that the CC is clearly against what is considered torture, such as burning, chopping off fingers, etc; things that we all can agree are clearly torture.

I am not convinced either way, I say for the umpteenth time, that waterboarding either is or is not torture.

You, on the other hand, have stated that the Roman Catholic Church allows clear instances of torture, and even done so in allowing for the sake of discussion that waterboarding is torture. This is not consistant with Church teachings.

My bad if I assumed you had softened from your POV. It would be far easier to figure out where you are in this discussion if you would quit evading and answer the question:

Do you believe that torture is evil?

instead of continuing to claim that you already answered it (I can’t find in this thread where you ***have ***answered it).

I think you are avoiding answering the question either to be purposefully difficult or because giving a direct answer weakens your argument. It isn’t an either/or question. Either you believe torture to be evil or not…or perhaps you’re undecided.

As far as the question in the OP, my answer is that I’m not sure, but if I had to answer either yes or no, I lean towards waterboarding not being torture and as such being an acceptable form of “enhanced interrogation”. But I have to stress that I don’t know all that much about waterboarding to determine in my own mind whether or not it crosses that line to being torture. If the Church were to come out and condemn waterboarding (if she has, I’m not aware of it) as torture, I’d be against it as well.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Please don’t be so obtuse.

Again, I NEVER made any claim about what the Catholic Church teaches about waterboarding in specifics. What I wrote was that the CC is clearly against what is considered torture, such as burning, chopping off fingers, etc; things that we all can agree are clearly torture.

I am not convinced either way, I say for the umpteenth time, that waterboarding either is or is not torture.

You, on the other hand, have stated that the Roman Catholic Church allows clear instances of torture, and even done so in allowing for the sake of discussion that waterboarding is torture. This is not consistant with Church teachings.

My bad if I assumed you had softened from your POV. It would be far easier to figure out where you are in this discussion if you would quit evading and answer the question:

Do you believe that torture is evil?

instead of continuing to claim that you already answered it (I can’t find in this thread where you ***have ***answered it).

I think you are avoiding answering the question either to be purposefully difficult or because giving a direct answer weakens your argument. It isn’t an either/or question. Either you believe torture to be evil or not…or perhaps you’re undecided.

As far as the question in the OP, my answer is that I’m not sure, but if I had to answer either yes or no, I lean towards waterboarding not being torture and as such being an acceptable form of “enhanced interrogation”. But I have to stress that I don’t know all that much about waterboarding to determine in my own mind whether or not it crosses that line to being torture. If the Church were to come out and condemn waterboarding (if she has, I’m not aware of it) as torture, I’d be against it as well.

Because the definition of torture is subjective, I can’t state that I believe all torture is always wrong.

My OP was specifically about waterboarding, though, and I believe without question that waterboarding is a moral tactic if it can save innocent life.

 

[JustaServant]

Because the definition of torture is subjective, I can’t state that I believe all torture is always wrong.

My OP was specifically about waterboarding, though, and I believe without question that waterboarding is a moral tactic if it can save innocent life.

That is the same train of thought the Nazis used in Germany. Secret police in dictatorships everywhere have said the same thing. Now, if you’re okay with that, fine. Just remember your words when they come for your wife, your children, your friends…

 

[Newbie2]

Because the definition of torture is subjective, I can’t state that I believe all torture is always wrong.

My OP was specifically about waterboarding, though, and I believe without question that waterboarding is a moral tactic if it can save innocent life.

OK, I understand, but let’s assume by “torture” we mean a procedure that everyone or nearly everyone would consider “torture” i.e. burning or cutting off fingers or like in the movie “Marathon Man” drilling into teeth and poking a probe into the tooth roots to cause excruciating pain. That takes the subjectivity out of it.

So, lemme ask this differently:

Do you think that would it be evil, as by my definition that leaves out any subjectivity?

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

OK, I understand, but let’s assume by “torture” we mean a procedure that everyone or nearly everyone would consider “torture” i.e. burning or cutting off fingers or like in the movie “Marathon Man” drilling into teeth and poking a probe into the tooth roots to cause excruciating pain. That takes the subjectivity out of it.

So, lemme ask this differently:

Do you think that would it be evil, as by my definition that leaves out any subjectivity?

Given your definition, I still can’t state that all torture is evil.

For example: Would the torture of Hitler have been evil if it had prevented the suffering of millions in the Holocaust?

 

[Newbie2]

Given your definition, I still can’t state that all torture is evil.

OK, thanks for answering, that’s what I thought you might say.

So you think torture (by my definition) is either evil or not evil based on the reason for the torture?

 

[JustaServant]

OK, thanks for answering, that’s what I thought you might say.

So you think torture (by my definition) is either evil or not evil based on the reason for the torture?

That’s called situational ethics.