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ematouk
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Can a married Roman Catholic lay man be ordained a priest in a Byzantine Catholic Church, then serve mass at a Roman Catholic Church?
I’m just curious.
I’m just curious.
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Cran
Guest
No. Before becoming an ordained priest in one of the byzantine catholic churches, he would have to changes rites for good (become a byzantine catholic), and then he MIGHT eventually be a priest, too.
But no sensible priest/bishop would agree to a change of rite or even an ordination if the sole purpose is to avoid celibacy! Someone told me it would be rather difficult to change rites anyway, but that is just hearsay
BUT if somebody is a byzantine catholic priest (changes ritus or not), he is allowed to celebrate in the roman rite, too, without extra permission. He might even be a parish priest of a roman rite parish if the local bishop would ask him to do so.
But no sensible priest/bishop would agree to a change of rite or even an ordination if the sole purpose is to avoid celibacy! Someone told me it would be rather difficult to change rites anyway, but that is just hearsay
BUT if somebody is a byzantine catholic priest (changes ritus or not), he is allowed to celebrate in the roman rite, too, without extra permission. He might even be a parish priest of a roman rite parish if the local bishop would ask him to do so.
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DL82
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Also, you have to consider that the RCC priesthood really isn’t set up for married men with families. For example, many diocese move their priests around frequently, priests’ pay and accommodation is often not sufficient for a family, childrens’ school life would be disrupted. Many of the married Anglican priests who joined the Catholic Church in recent years have found it difficult to cope with this, and their bishops have likewise found it difficult to cope with their families’ needs.
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cameron_lansing
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I am not of the opinion that this is correct. Perhaps you are aware of something I am not, and would welcome correction.
Permission will be required by way of a special faculty or indult because of canon 846 §2 of the Latin Church: “The ministers are to celebrate the sacraments according to their own rite.”
We also have in the code of canons of the Eastern Churches, canon 674 §2: “The minister should celebrate the sacraments according to the liturgical prescriptions of his own Church sui iuris, unless the law establishes otherwise or he himself has obtained a special faculty from the Apostolic See.”
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marlo
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he will need to be a bi-ritual priest
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ELEUTHERIUS
Guest
Christ is Born! Glorify Him!
Changing from Eastern to Western is not just a changing of Rites.
It is a changing of Churches. A person would be changing from one of the 23 churches in the Catholic Church to another Church within the family of Churches.
This is not something to be taken lightly as once the change is made it would be difficult to change back if not impossible. I doubt if Bishops want people changing from one church to another on a whim or for some frivolous reason.
To receive permission to serve in both an Eastern and Western Church the Bishops woould have to agree there was a need and be willing to give permission. If the main reason for switching churches was because a person wanted to be a married priest, I think they had better re-examine what they percieve as a calling.
Yours in Christ,
Father Deacon Paul
Changing from Eastern to Western is not just a changing of Rites.
It is a changing of Churches. A person would be changing from one of the 23 churches in the Catholic Church to another Church within the family of Churches.
This is not something to be taken lightly as once the change is made it would be difficult to change back if not impossible. I doubt if Bishops want people changing from one church to another on a whim or for some frivolous reason.
To receive permission to serve in both an Eastern and Western Church the Bishops woould have to agree there was a need and be willing to give permission. If the main reason for switching churches was because a person wanted to be a married priest, I think they had better re-examine what they percieve as a calling.
Yours in Christ,
Father Deacon Paul
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ASimpleSinner
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More pragmatically, he will never get that by our bishops.
They are approached far more frequently than some people would suspect and are rather wary of folks who may be percieved as “using” our church, tradition and opportunities to find “ways around” anything. We aren’t here as some giant loophole. Our traditions and customs aren’t in place to fullfill anyone’s personal aspirations and desires.
If they want to be a married Roman cleric, let them be a deacon. If they want to be a married eastern cleric, let’s sit down and discuss and discern what is coming first and what is at play - are we being used to fullfill a private ambition, or do they have a call to serve us?
If the bishop is approached ***“I’m a married RC, but I want to get ordained…can I still say Mass afterwards? Will you give me faculties to be bi-ritual then too?” *** Alarms louder than a tornado siren are going to go off.
If the bishop says no, would the would-be candidate still stick around and worship with the Eastern Catholics?
That would be truly telling.
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Isa_Almisry
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Would he become Orthodox?
THAT would be truly telling.
Btw, the primate of the TAC group is in this situation, Latin>ordained by Anglicans>?
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ASimpleSinner
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Maybe because the hypothetical would-be married sojourner to the Catholic east is and affirms Catholocism.
But who said a thing about the TAC or becoming Orthodox?
How is your response to my post relevant to my post?
What does the TAC and the history of their leaderships ecclesial affiliations have to do with the price of rice in China on this one?
How is this appropriate to a forum discussing Eastern Catholic Churches? You keep wanting to insinuate and situate yourself into the fray. I am not sure why. I have my suspicions.
Isa I think you have grown obsessed with this forum. I hope it is baring spiritual fruit for you to spend so very much time here in combat.
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Volodymyr_988
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I think most Eparchies have rules for men who switch Churches. I’ve heard that the man has to be a member of the Church for 5-10 years before he can be ordained and/or before entering the Seminary.
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Isa_Almisry
Guest
The idea of TAC submitting to Rome has come up on a number of threads.
The comparison has been by many between TAC and the “sui juris” churches of the East, and that if TAC was received, it would elevate the Anglican Use (AU) from just a rite to a sui juris church.
The problem of married clergy is one of the sticking points, not the least being that John Hepworth, the primate of the TAC was ordained a Latin priest, converted to Anglicanism, married and was ordained a bishop.
Now, is John Hepworth’s “way around celibacy” going to be accepted. Will he be at least accepted/reordained a priest, although he was already ordained as such, and, in violation of the ancient canons, THEN married, but in the Anglican church.
Inquiring minds want to know.
I didn’t say anything (here) about TAC become Orthodox, although I of course believe Western Rite Orthodox would be the way to go. But then, I’m “biased.”
Instead of a hypothetical, I have given you a real life, high profile example of what the OP asks. And as the supports of union of TAC with Rome explicitly cite the example of the Eastern and Oriental Catholic churches as a model, in particular on the issue of married clergy.
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Aramis
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They are seeking Sui Iuris status.
It may be that their primate retires as part of union. Or perhaps he may be accepted back with public absolution for this sin as part of unification.
Whatever the case, neither side is talking about the current negotiations other than to confirm the original request and the ongoing talks.
Going east to avoid celibacy is a no-no. Going TAC would be less of one, if they do get their desired sui iuris status, but would still obligate the individual to the hypothetical post-union “Anglican Catholic Church” rather than the Latin-Rite Roman Church Sui Iuris, and would still not permit them to serve the Roman Mass as Celebrant.
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Isa_Almisry
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By way of illustration in my previous post.
The Third Way
For those Anglicans who believe in the historical faith and wish to follow the “faith once delivered to the saints” without sacrificing their Anglican tradition, there is a third way. At present this third way is a very small and tentative option. Nevertheless it is a real option, one that serious Anglicans should consider.
Beginning in 1980, a pastoral provision has allowed married former Anglican priests to obtain a dispensation from the vow of celibacy and be ordained as Catholic priests. In addition, in 2003 Rome approved the Book of Divine Worship. This is an authorized book of liturgical rites based on the Book of Common Prayer. The Anglican rite is approved for “Anglican Use” parishes. At present there are only about six of these in the United States, but there could be more.
That means if an Episcopal priest and his people wish to leave the Anglican church, they can find a home in Rome. Their situation is similar to that of Eastern rite Catholic communities: They have married clergy and their own venerable liturgies and traditions, but they are also in full communion with Rome.
At present, this option is open only to Anglicans in the United States, but there is no reason why it could not be opened to Anglicans worldwide. Will many Anglican congregations take advantage of this open door offered by the Catholic Church? Could whole dioceses or even whole Anglican provinces come over? At present it does not look hopeful. Many are opting for the other two choices: staying grudgingly within the Anglican church or finding some sort of sectarian solution.
catholic.com/thisrock/2007/0702fea4.asp
Btw the author talks around the fact that besides "They have seen their lay people and clergy leave in droves—either to Rome or to one of the more than ninety schismatic Anglican “continuing churches” they have also gone Orthodox, both Eastern and the Wester Rite Orthodox.
As Aramis notes, going TAC to avoid celibacy would be less of a no no, and for that reason would have larger reprecusions for the Latins, and as part of the wave, the uniates. It would create an interesting dinamic.
The Third Way
For those Anglicans who believe in the historical faith and wish to follow the “faith once delivered to the saints” without sacrificing their Anglican tradition, there is a third way. At present this third way is a very small and tentative option. Nevertheless it is a real option, one that serious Anglicans should consider.
Beginning in 1980, a pastoral provision has allowed married former Anglican priests to obtain a dispensation from the vow of celibacy and be ordained as Catholic priests. In addition, in 2003 Rome approved the Book of Divine Worship. This is an authorized book of liturgical rites based on the Book of Common Prayer. The Anglican rite is approved for “Anglican Use” parishes. At present there are only about six of these in the United States, but there could be more.
That means if an Episcopal priest and his people wish to leave the Anglican church, they can find a home in Rome. Their situation is similar to that of Eastern rite Catholic communities: They have married clergy and their own venerable liturgies and traditions, but they are also in full communion with Rome.
At present, this option is open only to Anglicans in the United States, but there is no reason why it could not be opened to Anglicans worldwide. Will many Anglican congregations take advantage of this open door offered by the Catholic Church? Could whole dioceses or even whole Anglican provinces come over? At present it does not look hopeful. Many are opting for the other two choices: staying grudgingly within the Anglican church or finding some sort of sectarian solution.
catholic.com/thisrock/2007/0702fea4.asp
Btw the author talks around the fact that besides "They have seen their lay people and clergy leave in droves—either to Rome or to one of the more than ninety schismatic Anglican “continuing churches” they have also gone Orthodox, both Eastern and the Wester Rite Orthodox.
As Aramis notes, going TAC to avoid celibacy would be less of a no no, and for that reason would have larger reprecusions for the Latins, and as part of the wave, the uniates. It would create an interesting dinamic.
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ASimpleSinner
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It isn’t comparable inasmuch as
*]The OP was addressing Romans going to an Eastern Catholic Church to circumnavigate proscriptions on married priesthood in the Latin Church
*]The TAC at this point is in talks… But as it stands, Rome does not recognize their orders. Rome does NOT allow the Pastoral Provision to be appled to ex-Catholics who go that route.
*]There leaders has suggested he would step down and serve as a layman… to intimate he was playing an end game around married priesthood with the TAC so as to sneak back in is wildly off the mark
*]This is NOT a “high profile example of what the OP asks” in anoter significant way - TAC orders are not recognized, anyone who went to them to be ordained won’t be recieved as priests. Not so for RC who go to the EC - or even the EO though that is not what the OP asked about
*]If you are imagining it would create an interesting dynamic - see how successful men who have tried to pull this have been under the current system. I am not imagining it could become more lax
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surgei
Guest
Could this happen? Yes and no.
A bishop may only confer the sacrament of ordination on his own faithful. So, no a Roman Catholic of the Latin rite may not be ordained by a Byzantine bishop.
1)There is a process by which a person may become a Greek Catholic. This person could then be ordained by his own bishop.
2.)A Priest may receive special permission to serve the liturgy of more than one particular church sui juris. This would allow the Greek Catholic priest to celebrate the Latin Liturgy.
3)There is a process that allows a priest to switch particular churches sui juris.
4)There are men who have done this. In all or in part.
Most Bishops will not give up their priests to serve another church unless it is for the salvation of that priest.
I have a friend that did step one.
I know of priests that have step two.
I know of several that went from the west to east in step three but not the obverse.
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kaygee
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Biritual faculties are required for that. Requires a request by the priest’s own bishop and by the bishop that wants to use him in the west. Then the request must go through Rome and, in the case of a married man, the request for biritual faculties is almost never granted.
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Isa_Almisry
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And what happens when you have a Latin sui juris church without mandated celibacy. That’s not going to put, say, the ban on married Eastern priests in the US onto the forefront?
The problem is the primate in question was, according to Rome, validly ordained, and thus, according to Rome “a priest forever.”
I wasn’t insinuating he had. But the problem with precedent, it leads to unforeseen results.
I don’t know why he converted to the Anglicans in the first place. Someone on orthodoxchrisitianity.net said that he was one of the reasons they were going to Rome, which looking back at the trail now, seems odd.
The problem his ordination as a priest (by a Latin bishop) puts him in a different catagory. I wouldn’t expect that he would be received as a bishop (the unrecognized ordination).
The dynamic has to do with what has been a bar up to now: proving how “Eastern” you are to begin with to go EC.
But here that hurdle is not going to exist. A similar problem I understand applied with the Ambrosian rite: its married clergy were suppressed later than the rest in the West. And if you have a sui juris Western church with married priests, the EC are going to ask why they can’t have married priests in the West (something they have by flouting the prohibition now), which is also going to cause a bit of questioning on the present Latin discpline. The shortage of priests is going to guarentee that.
If the sui juris status had not come up, it might not be a problem. But they are raising it.
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Volodymyr_988
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I have an acquaintance who is a priest who was raised Latin, married a Ukrainian woman, switched Sui Juris Churches, and was ordained a priest in the UGCC.
He told me that an Eastern Priest’s Spiritual Father generally tells his Spiritual Sons that an Eastern Priest should be an Eastern Priest only so to avoid “Spiritual Schizophrenia” as it may be termed. Biritual faculties are less usual for an Eastern priest going West.
He told me that an Eastern Priest’s Spiritual Father generally tells his Spiritual Sons that an Eastern Priest should be an Eastern Priest only so to avoid “Spiritual Schizophrenia” as it may be termed. Biritual faculties are less usual for an Eastern priest going West.
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Woodstock
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Wasn’t one of the (relatively speaking) recently ordained married men for the Ruthenians a former Latin?
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ASimpleSinner
Guest
And what does happen?
How many angels on the head of a pin?
This is all just innovative speculation that you are retrofitting on the question!
No rulings have been had to date, let alone how a future possibility could be applied to this present hypothetical.
Is it that difficutl to understand?
To answer the OP’s what if question wiout layering more “what ifs” about it would be a good start. As of this time, Rome’s response to the TAC is a HUGE unknown quantity. We don’t have a history of taking in untrained and undertrained protestants (EOC) and dubious near-vagantes (HOOMies) that has played out in the Orthodox in the West. Don’t juxtapose that oddity on us.
Time will tell, in the mean time that is mere wild speculation.
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